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Thread: Worst US loss of life in Afghan war as helicopter shot down - 31 Special Forces killed

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Info was that this was during hours of darkness, and it is really hard to fly multiple aircraft together on a mission with only night vision gear without bad things happening. We have a RPF member with more knowledge about this than I do, who will hopefully be able to provide better information about night flying.
    Unfortunately it's done all the time and you are right it is a high risk mission. A chinook is the best performing aircraft at altitude so this is a very big factor on why they are used in Afganistan. Chinooks were used in air assualt missions in Iraq as well. They just took out the largest target as I am sure there was a whole assortment of other aircraft on the mission.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Unfortunately it's done all the time and you are right it is a high risk mission. A chinook is the best performing aircraft at altitude so this is a very big factor on why they are used in Afganistan. Chinooks were used in air assualt missions in Iraq as well. They just took out the largest target as I am sure there was a whole assortment of other aircraft on the mission.
    What air assault??
    this was supposed to be an extraction. A rescue.

    A smaller, faster and better armored aircraft like a Blackhawk would be a logical choice.
    As well as cover from ground assault aircraft.
    Not a large , slow moving and loaded aircraft that the enemy has shown an ability to remove at will.

    Either things are not as they are reported, not as they seem, or the commanders in the field are complete tactical idiots.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    What air assault??
    this was supposed to be an extraction. A rescue.

    A smaller, faster and better armored aircraft like a Blackhawk would be a logical choice.
    As well as cover from ground assault aircraft.
    Not a large , slow moving and loaded aircraft that the enemy has shown an ability to remove at will.

    Either things are not as they are reported, not as they seem, or the commanders in the field are complete tactical idiots.
    We don't know how shot up the guys to be rescued were. If there are 4 of them that can't make it to the helicopter under their own power, you need 2 each to get each wounded out. Meanwhile the helicopter is just sitting there while the search for the wounded takes place, so I;m guessing they though they needed some form of local security for the landing zone .... That is more than a Blackhawk can carry.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    We don't know how shot up the guys to be rescued were. If there are 4 of them that can't make it to the helicopter under their own power, you need 2 each to get each wounded out. Meanwhile the helicopter is just sitting there while the search for the wounded takes place, so I;m guessing they though they needed some form of local security for the landing zone .... That is more than a Blackhawk can carry.
    I repeat,, The ground commanders are of questionable tactical literacy.

    First that the 4 highly trained elite specialists are in an area without an exit. or ready support.
    Secondly, that a platoon of highly trained specialists was lost flying into a hot zone in the slowest most vulnerable aircraft in inventory. One that the enemy has been known to have the ability to target and destroy on multiple occasions.

    Very costly mistakes=tactical stupidity.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 08-06-2011 at 10:09 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I repeat,, The ground commanders are of questionable tactical literacy.

    First that the 4 highly trained elite specialists are in an area without an exit. or ready support.
    Secondly, that a platoon of highly trained specialists was lost flying into a hot zone in the slowest most vulnerable aircraft in inventory. One that the enemy has been known to have the ability to target and destroy on multiple occasions.

    Very costly mistakes=tactical stupidity.
    Exactly... this wouldn't happen. Even a butter bar fresh out of basic knows how to provide support and evac.
    Indianensis Universitatis Alumnus

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I repeat,, The ground commanders are of questionable tactical literacy.

    First that the 4 highly trained elite specialists are in an area without an exit. or ready support.
    Secondly, that a platoon of highly trained specialists was lost flying into a hot zone in the slowest most vulnerable aircraft in inventory. One that the enemy has been known to have the ability to target and destroy on multiple occasions.

    Very costly mistakes=tactical stupidity.
    So far, nobody has said it was a rescue - just assumptions at this point.

    The Taliban claimed they downed the helicopter with rocket fire while it was taking part in a raid on a house where insurgents were gathered in Wardak late Friday. It said wreckage of the craft was strewn at the scene.

    That does not sound like a rescue mission to me.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    So far, nobody has said it was a rescue - just assumptions at this point.

    The Taliban claimed they downed the helicopter with rocket fire while it was taking part in a raid on a house where insurgents were gathered in Wardak late Friday. It said wreckage of the craft was strewn at the scene.

    That does not sound like a rescue mission to me.
    Perhaps not, I may have confused it with the earlier downing of a Chinook, after re-reading the articles.

    Still a massive SNAFU. In an ongoing display of military stupidity.
    We are repeating the Russian mistakes,,,by the numbers.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  9. #38

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    History repeats itself. Another Chinook was shot down many years ago.
    This is the story of fire team leader Marcus Luttrell, the sole survivor of Operation Redwing, and the desperate battle in the mountains that led, ultimately, to the largest loss of life in Navy SEAL history. But it is also, more than anything, the story of his teammates, who fought ferociously beside him until he was the last one left-blasted unconscious by a rocket grenade, blown over a cliff, but still armed and still breathing. Over the next four days, badly injured and presumed dead, Luttrell fought off six al Qaeda assassins who were sent to finish him, then crawled for seven miles through the mountains before he was taken in by a Pashtun tribe, who risked everything to protect him from the encircling Taliban killers.

    http://www.amazon.com/Lone-Survivor-.../dp/0316067598

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irC4K7Q4JCo

    Another perspective
    Colonel David Hunt and others do not like the tactics being used.

    http://www.amazon.com/Hunt-How-Wake-...2735826&sr=1-5
    Last edited by Primbs; 08-07-2011 at 10:52 AM.

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Perhaps not, I may have confused it with the earlier downing of a Chinook, after re-reading the articles.

    Still a massive SNAFU. In an ongoing display of military stupidity.
    We are repeating the Russian mistakes,,,by the numbers.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...rescue-mission

    US helicopter shot down in Afghanistan was on rescue mission

    Officials say the Chinook was assisting an army ranger unit when it was hit, killing 30 Americans and eight Afghans

    • guardian.co.uk, Sunday 7 August 2011 18.41 BST
    • The US Navy Seals’ Chinook was shot down in Wardak, Afghanistan, killing 38. Photograph: Romeo Gacad/Getty

      The US Navy Seals and other troops whose helicopter was shot down in eastern Afghanistan had rushed to the mountainous area to help a US army ranger unit that was under fire from insurgents, two US officials said Sunday.

    • The rescue team had completed the mission, subduing the attackers who had the rangers pinned down, and were departing in their Chinook helicopter when the aircraft was apparently hit, an official said.

    • Thirty Americans and eight Afghans were killed in the crash, making it the deadliest single loss for U.S. forces in the decade-long war in Afghanistan. The rangers, special operations forces who work regularly with the Seals, afterwards secured the crash site in the Tangi Joy Zarin area of Wardak province, about 60 miles (97km) southwest of Kabul, an official said.

    • On Sunday, NATO began an operation to recover the remains of the large transport helicopter, while Afghan and American forces battled insurgents in the region of the crash. The clashes Sunday did not appear to involve the troops around the crash site.
      "There have been a small number of limited engagements in the same district as yesterday's helicopter crash, however those clashes have not been in the direct vicinity of the crash site," NATO said in a statement. "As of now, we have no reporting to indicate any coalition casualties resulting from these engagements."
      Shahidullah Shahid, the Wardak provincial spokesman, confirmed the helicopter recovery mission was under way and said there were reports of Taliban casualties overnight.

    • "There is a joint operation going on by Afghan and NATO forces. A clearing operation is ongoing in the district and there are reports of casualties among insurgents," Shahid said. "The area is still surrounded by American forces."
      Elsewhere in Afghanistan, NATO said insurgents killed four alliance service members in two separate attacks in the east and the south. It did not provide their nationalities or any other details.
      The deaths bring to 369 the number of coalition troops killed this year in Afghanistan and 46 this month.

    • The downing of the helicopter Saturday was heavy setback for the US-led coalition as it begins to draw down thousands of combat troops fighting what has become an increasingly costly and unpopular war.
      Of the 30 Americans killed, there were 22 Navy Seals, three Air Force combat controllers and a dog handler, his dog and four crew members, a current US official and a former official said on condition of anonymity because military officials were still notifying the families of the dead.

    • Most of the Seals belonged to the same elite unit that killed Osama bin Laden, although they were not the same people who participated in the May raid into Pakistan that killed the al-Qaida leader. The downing was a stinging blow to the lauded, tight-knit Seal Team 6, months after its crowning achievement.
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  11. #40

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...in_Afghanistan
    25 December 1979- An Il-76 heavy transport plane crashed into a mountain near the village of Kanzak (Northeast of Kabul) after being damaged by anti-aircraft artillery fire. Its pilot, 9-11 other crew members, 37 paratroopers and nine troops from unknown units were killed upon impact, leaving no survivors. Two vehicles in cargo, including a fuel truck, were also destroyed.[2]
    I guess if you don't learn from the mistakes of others,,,,,
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #41

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    This seem rather appropriate to this thread.



    Very powerful. Just found it.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  13. #42

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    bump, this could be a big turning point for Americans to call for the end to wars
    We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false. -- William Casey, CIA Director

    Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.-- Mark Twain

    When people like us-- the scum of society-- don't risk our lives when a rare chance comes our way, we become losers at that moment. So courage is the only thing we can rely on.-- Anchan

  14. #43

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    I told a priest today he needs to make his sermons about ending the wars.. he agress mostly because is a Franciscan & there spiritual guide on earth (St.Francis) was very anti-war even during the terrible times of the crusades.


    BRING "EM HOME.. Come on Rand & Ron!

  15. #44

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    tragic loss of another team 6 member reported today. . .

    bring the troops home

  16. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    This seem rather appropriate to this thread.



    Very powerful. Just found it.
    Beautiful, poignant, and profoundly true. This video will not be popular with some on these forums, but the truth is often not popular.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
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  17. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Horse_Rider View Post
    tragic loss of another team 6 member reported today. . .

    bring the troops home
    Gosh darn it! I hate you so much! I just saw this today and called up my parents to ask them if they heard. Halfway through reading it to them I saw that this was posted a year ago. Stupid necroposting -_-

  18. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcannon98188 View Post
    Gosh darn it! I hate you so much! I just saw this today and called up my parents to ask them if they heard. Halfway through reading it to them I saw that this was posted a year ago. Stupid necroposting -_-
    nope, is real live human here

  19. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philmanoman View Post
    How much more Blood and Treasure are we willing to spend?
    Until there's none left, of course. That's the whole point.
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
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    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

  20. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by asurfaholic View Post
    This whole thing is bad news.. We lost a good number of very worthy young people fighting in an endless war. So sad that people can't wake up before things get deep.
    This is the insanity of ego in some people - all the wrong ones, no less.

    If we pull our now, their reasoning goes, all those who died will have done so in vain.

    That's right. They died in vain. Better that than killing more to the same end.

    It's time for America to grow the fuck up. We are as a nation of imbecile children. We are so lost it defies full comprehension. We are so full of shit as a nation that words fail me. People are just not getting it and I am not sure what it will take to change that. The reality of 6K dead soldiers and some 40K brutally maimed hasn't done the job and I blame our culture of violence in part for this. We have become so inured to death and destruction through the popular cultures of television, film, and video gaming that it seems nothing touches us any longer. Not enough to get us to act. It is as if the great mass of the nation has given up - thrown up its hands in defeat and in the resigned acceptance that there is nothing we can do to stop the wild insanity that is running amok across the face of the earth.

    We need to stop it. We need to turn our backs on these raving lunatics who put our fellows, our brothers and sisters through the meat grinder of endless war. We need to withdraw our consent to be governed by these devils in costly suits. We need to stop cooperating with them, to stop paying them and paying attention to them. And finally I will say what I have felt for a long time: if they refuse to respect us as I know they will, we need to kill them. It is that plain and that clear because the future of the world is literally at stake here. I am old enough and have lived enough that I no longer avoid such unpleasant truths.

    A thought just crossed my mind, which means you should all be very afraid: is there any virtue in establishing a website wherein people may specifically declare withdrawal of their consent to be governed? Imagine being able to publish and present a report or petition with, say, 10 million names of people who were willing to stand up and be counted. I have no idea whether it could have any real effect or even if the expression of such explicit rejection of tyranny would have any real meaning, but I thought I would toss the notion out there.
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

  21. #50

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    Congress to probe lethal SEAL crash

    http://thehill.com/homenews/house/31...hal-seal-crash

    Congress has launched an investigation of the helicopter crash that killed 30 Americans in Afghanistan, including members of the Navy’s elite SEAL Team 6 unit, The Hill has learned.

    The victims’ families say the Pentagon hasn’t provided answers to their many questions about the deadly attack, which took place on Aug. 6, 2011, three months after Osama bin Laden was killed in Pakistan by Team 6 forces.

    ...

    Shortly before the CH-47 Chinook helicopter took off on a rescue mission (operation Extortion 17), seven Afghan commandos who were on the passenger list were replaced by other Afghan military officials.

    It remains unclear why the manifest was incorrect, raising red flags among the victims’ families. They have noted that their sons didn’t trust Afghan soldiers. One was quoted as saying, “They are loyal to the highest bidder.”

    ...

    The Chinook was shot down by Afghan militants, and all 38 on board perished. Among the dead were 30 Americans, including 22 Navy SEALS, seven Afghan soldiers and one Afghan translator. Their bodies were later recovered, but the helicopter’s black box was not. Pentagon officials have said that it could not be recovered, citing a flash flood that happened soon after the assault.

    All the bodies were cremated. The Pentagon has defended the cremation to the soldiers’ families, saying the bodies were badly burned.

    Chaffetz, however, said he has seen a photo of a deceased SEAL that was not.

    “The body I saw didn’t need to be cremated,” Chaffetz said, adding that the Department of Defense’s explanation of its failure to find the helicopter’s black box seems “awfully odd.”
    ಠ_ಠ
    Let's move forward to the Constitution.. I am the new GOP. I stand with Rand.

  22. #51
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    Live By the Sword, Die By The Sword.

    (I've honestly just stopped caring. If you don't want to get shot by people defending their country, don't join the Imperial Invasion Force. I'll cry for the truly innocent people who get killed, not for the agents of the Empire.)

    (Fully prepared to take neg rep for this...)

  23. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    This is the insanity of ego in some people - all the wrong ones, no less.

    If we pull our now, their reasoning goes, all those who died will have done so in vain.

    That's right. They died in vain. Better that than killing more to the same end.

    It's time for America to grow the fuck up. We are as a nation of imbecile children. We are so lost it defies full comprehension. We are so full of shit as a nation that words fail me. People are just not getting it and I am not sure what it will take to change that. The reality of 6K dead soldiers and some 40K brutally maimed hasn't done the job and I blame our culture of violence in part for this. We have become so inured to death and destruction through the popular cultures of television, film, and video gaming that it seems nothing touches us any longer. Not enough to get us to act. It is as if the great mass of the nation has given up - thrown up its hands in defeat and in the resigned acceptance that there is nothing we can do to stop the wild insanity that is running amok across the face of the earth.

    We need to stop it. We need to turn our backs on these raving lunatics who put our fellows, our brothers and sisters through the meat grinder of endless war. We need to withdraw our consent to be governed by these devils in costly suits. We need to stop cooperating with them, to stop paying them and paying attention to them. And finally I will say what I have felt for a long time: if they refuse to respect us as I know they will, we need to kill them. It is that plain and that clear because the future of the world is literally at stake here. I am old enough and have lived enough that I no longer avoid such unpleasant truths.

    A thought just crossed my mind, which means you should all be very afraid: is there any virtue in establishing a website wherein people may specifically declare withdrawal of their consent to be governed? Imagine being able to publish and present a report or petition with, say, 10 million names of people who were willing to stand up and be counted. I have no idea whether it could have any real effect or even if the expression of such explicit rejection of tyranny would have any real meaning, but I thought I would toss the notion out there.
    I agree with the vast majority of this, but I can't agree with you on the condemning of TV and video games. Its a scapegoat.

    Laurence Vance rightfully laughs at the idea http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/...ies-and-games/

    Public schools, indoctrination, and sheep masquerading as parents and pastors are the problem here, not video games.

  24. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I agree with the vast majority of this, but I can't agree with you on the condemning of TV and video games. Its a scapegoat.

    Laurence Vance rightfully laughs at the idea http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/...ies-and-games/

    Public schools, indoctrination, and sheep masquerading as parents and pastors are the problem here, not video games.
    + a bunch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danke View Post
    I carry my man purse for fashion, not function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    + a bunch.
    Thanks!

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