Please convince me of statism!

[heavenlyboy34]

They have been countless. You just don't notice them because they disappear so fast.

A state fails when the leaders chew and gnaw at their own limits until they can finally grow too big for their britches. Statelss societies fail as soon as the people get sick of working at cross purposes and get themselves some leadership. A process that doesn't take long, and leadership which is generally too big for its britches right out of the box.

No, there haven't been "countless". Countless stateless societies, yes. But countless voluntary societies, no. (never in history, in fact)

[acptulsa]

No, there haven't been "countless". Countless stateless societies, yes. But countless voluntary societies, no. (never in history, in fact)

Surely there's an old hippie commune experimenter on here who can educate this child. Help me out here...

[Travlyr]

How do you know? There hasn't been one yet. Stateless, yes-but voluntary as well, no. Historically, Stateless societies have been disorderly and "governed" by warlords and such.

As an aside, note also as an aside that Mises said in his book "Liberalism" that classical liberalism has never successfully been established. Were you to achieve a truly "liberal" (in the classical sense) society, it would be a first in world history.

I don't follow what you are saying here. Explain please. Weren't the warlords in fact "rulers?"

Ron Paul - "We had a relative voluntary society in our early history."



To hold out for a perfect voluntary society is futile. A relative voluntary society is my goal.

[heavenlyboy34]

Surely there's an old hippie commune experimenter on here who can educate this child. Help me out here...

Not a substitute for an argument. Name a Voluntaryist society in history. There hasn't even been a true classical liberal society.

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't follow what you are saying here. Explain please. Weren't the warlords in fact "rulers?"

They were bullies, but they didn't "lead" anyone. They issued orders.

To hold out for a perfect voluntary society is futile. A relative voluntary society is my goal.

No, to hold out for a successful minarchist society is futile. Remember, there was a time when it was considered a fantasy that leaders would be elected at all or that blacks would be considered human on par with whites. Humanity eventually outgrew it (in the West, at least). We'll also outgrow our current state of affairs, simply because it isn't sustainable if for no other reason.

[acptulsa]

If a bunch of hippies aren't living together voluntarily, what's making them stay? Talk about no substitute for an argument...

They were bullies, but they didn't "lead" anyone. They issued orders.

These semantics are no substitute for an argument, either.

Oh, and what was so slanderous about the post above to warrant a meaningless negrep? The fact that I referred to your youth?

[heavenlyboy34]

If a bunch of hippies aren't living together voluntarily, what's making them stay? Talk about no substitute for an argument...



These semantics are no substitute for an argument, either.

Oh, and what was so slanderous about the post above to warrant a meaningless negrep? The fact that I referred to your youth?

Yes-you called me a "child". Generally, this is considered an insult when referring to a 30-year old person (especially in the condescending way you used it). Insults are against forum rules and generally poor discourse.

I wasn't using semantics as a substitute for an argument. You tried to argue that there have been "countless" voluntary societies, which isn't true. Voluntary association binds people all the time. Contracts, purchases, loans, tickets to events, etc, etc. Your "hippie commune" example was unrelated (unless these hippies have a some sort of binding agreement, which is not typical of hippie communes).
What binds states? All the legalese and mumbo-jumbo (such as "social contract") espoused by Federalists and their sympathizers have not stopped the usurpation of power and transfer of wealth by the regime.

[Theocrat]

I am intellectually honest and open to reason. If you would like to fix my unrealistic political philosophy, I eagerly await your enlightenment! I'm so sick and tired of being wrong.

Just a few things first; below are a few quotes that represent a nice summation of my anti-statist political philosophy. To cure me of my ills, you will need to adequately address the following.

Please help me!














What are your arguments for the state as defined above?

It's a good thing I'm not a statist.

[Travlyr]

No, to hold out for a successful minarchist society is futile. Remember, there was a time when it was considered a fantasy that leaders would be elected at all or that blacks would be considered human on par with whites. Humanity eventually outgrew it (in the West, at least). We'll also outgrow our current state of affairs, simply because it isn't sustainable if for no other reason.

We live in an imperfect world. To expect perfection in an imperfect world is futile. To work toward perfection is purposeful.

[A Son of Liberty]

We live in an imperfect world. To expect perfection in an imperfect world is futile. To work toward perfection is purposeful.

Quite right. One wonders why you're aiming short of perfection.

[Travlyr]

Quite right. One wonders why you're aiming short of perfection.

Ron Paul - "We had a relative voluntary society in our early history."

What is wrong with a relative voluntary society?

[A Son of Liberty]

Ron Paul - "We had a relative voluntary society in our early history."

What is wrong with a relative voluntary society?

The only thing wrong with it is that we could do better.

[Travlyr]

Ron Paul - "We had a relative voluntary society in our early history."

No, to hold out for a successful minarchist society is futile. Remember, there was a time when it was considered a fantasy that leaders would be elected at all or that blacks would be considered human on par with whites. Humanity eventually outgrew it (in the West, at least). We'll also outgrow our current state of affairs, simply because it isn't sustainable if for no other reason.

If our ancestors did enjoy a relative voluntary society, then why reject returning to those principles?

[heavenlyboy34]

Ron Paul - "We had a relative voluntary society in our early history."



If our ancestors did enjoy a relative voluntary society, then why reject returning to those principles?

We have to go back quite a ways before the constitution to find a voluntary society. (even a number of the ranks of the colonial and revolutionary war army were drafted) If he means that by that quote, I agree with him.

[Travlyr]

We have to go back quite a ways before the constitution to find a voluntary society. If he means that by that quote, I agree with him.

I think he did, but I'm not sure about that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF1PM...layer_embedded

What is your opinion?

[acptulsa]

We have to go back quite a ways before the constitution to find a voluntary society. (even a number of the ranks of the colonial and revolutionary war army were drafted) If he means that by that quote, I agree with him.

What was so coercive about the signing of the Constitution? Last I heard, it was voluntarily adopted by the nation when the Articles proved a bit too loose to be wieldy.

For that matter, what was coercive about the Articles of Confederation?

[heavenlyboy34]

What was so coercive about the signing of the Constitution? Last I heard, it was voluntarily adopted by the nation when the Articles proved a bit too loose to be wieldy.

Actually the Constitution was not voluntarily adopted by "the nation". It was foisted upon the people. Madison and the Federalists closed the doors of their meeting to both the people and the press. They explicitly violated their duty assigned by the state legislatures-to amend the articles of confederation.

No member of the Convention ever revealed what went on behind those closed doors. This included the opponents of the Constitution. Luther Martin of Maryland, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, opposed the Convention's plan within days of his participation. He kept notes of the debates, but his notes were not published until 1838, two years after Madison's death — the last member of the Convention to die.(1)

For that matter, what was coercive about the Articles of Confederation?

I didn't get into the AoC previously, so I don't see why you're bringing it up. (I'll add more to this point later...gtg for now)

[acptulsa]

I didn't get into the AoC previously, so I don't see why you're bringing it up. (I'll add more to this point later...gtg for now)

Well, you were talking about before the Revolution, right? Not that I entirely agree about the Constitution--these people were elected, or at least selected, to represent the folks in the Several States after all...

We have to go back quite a ways before the constitution to find a voluntary society. (even a number of the ranks of the colonial and revolutionary war army were drafted) If he means that by that quote, I agree with him.

So, if you have to predate the revolution to find a voluntary society on this continent, what was so involuntary about the Articles?

[robert68]

Well, you were talking about before the Revolution, right? Not that I entirely agree about the Constitution--these people were elected, or at least selected, to represent the folks in the Several States after all...

"Background to the Constitution" by Robert LeFevre, starting at 7:30 of note:

[heavenlyboy34]

So, if you have to predate the revolution to find a voluntary society on this continent, what was so involuntary about the Articles?

The primary problem is that there isn't an article allowing for individual nullification of laws. It also forbids private minting of money. I only have a few nitpicks like that with the AoC, and those could be fixed with amendments.

[Anti Federalist]

Brian Miller, recently ousted Pima CO. GOP chair, summed up his philosophy thusly, which is the same as mine:

"Progressively less government, until there is none".

The massive structure of the state was not erected overnight, it will not go away overnight.

[Sentient Void]

Brian Miller, recently ousted Pima CO. GOP chair, summed up his philosophy thusly, which is the same as mine:

"Progressively less government, until there is none".

The massive structure of the state was not erected overnight, it will not go away overnight.

WHOAAAAA, WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA.... WHOA.

AF. What's this I see. Are you a gradualist anarchist?

When did you finally decide to jump on the anarchist boat? This is basically the same exact method I support (though will say I want it as fast as possible, I realistically understand it will not be an overnight process). Minarchism on the road to anarchism - controlled demolition, preferably.

[LibertyEagle]

Brian Miller, recently ousted Pima CO. GOP chair, summed up his philosophy thusly, which is the same as mine:

"Progressively less government, until there is none".

The massive structure of the state was not erected overnight, it will not go away overnight.

Smooth move. No wonder he was ousted. Now, because of his big mouth, he has lost the chance he did have to help Ron Paul get elected.

[Anti Federalist]

Smooth move. No wonder he was ousted. Now, because of his big mouth, he has lost the chance he did have to help Ron Paul get elected.

He was not ousted for that comment.

He was ousted because he dared to open his mouth about that SWAT raid that killed the Marine in a botched drug raid and then they let him bleed out and die for an hour before allowing medics into the home.

http://www.kvoa.com/news/pima-county...airman-ousted/

[Anti Federalist]

That's where I've been all along.

It may take centuries to achieve worldwide though.

Which is why I still favor the concept of a nation and trade policies that work to maximize our efforts at limiting government and eventually eliminating it.

WHOAAAAA, WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA.... WHOA.

AF. What's this I see. Are you a gradualist anarchist?

When did you finally decide to jump on the anarchist boat? This is basically the same exact method I support (though will say I want it as fast as possible, I realistically understand it will not be an overnight process). Minarchism on the road to anarchism - controlled demolition, preferably.

[LibertyEagle]

He was not ousted for that comment.

He was ousted because he dared to open his mouth about that SWAT raid that killed the Marine in a botched drug raid and then they let him bleed out and die for an hour before allowing medics into the home.

http://www.kvoa.com/news/pima-county...airman-ousted/

I don't care. It still wasn't wise. We all know they will do just about anything to keep Ron Paul from the Whitehouse and will jump at any chance to get us out of positions of power within the Republican party. We have to be smarter than this and keep our eye on the prize.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't care. It still wasn't wise. We all know they will do just about anything to keep Ron Paul from the Whitehouse and will jump at any chance to get us out of positions of power within the Republican party. We have to be smarter than this and keep our eye on the prize.

Sadly, you are absolutely correct, which is why most people in politics have the integrity and honesty of used car salesmen.

[A Son of Liberty]

Terrible thing to say about used car salesmen, that.

I know one thing for sure - I respect Mr. Miller both for his view of government, and also for his stance on the awful murder of Jose Guerena.

[Anti Federalist]

Terrible thing to say about used car salesmen, that.

I know one thing for sure - I respect Mr. Miller both for his view of government, and also for his stance on the awful murder of Jose Guerena.

As do I.

But the unfortunate fact of the matter is that, for a few rare exceptions, politics requires the greasy smile, the talking out of both sides of your mouth, two bit hustling of a petty pimp to be successful at it.

[LibertyEagle]

Terrible thing to say about used car salesmen, that.

I know one thing for sure - I respect Mr. Miller both for his view of government, and also for his stance on the awful murder of Jose Guerena.

I would have respected him a lot more if he would have kept his mouth shut about it and helped to get Ron Paul elected. Because then, we would be on a path to make sure that we didn't have a repeat of what happened to Guerena.