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Thread: "Circumcision rights" are Municipal, State or Federal issue?

  1. #1

    "Circumcision rights" are Municipal, State or Federal issue?

    Is there a need to make a "federal case" out of this issue.

    http://www.capitolweekly.net/article...zv5xuneicrdt7p



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  3. #2
    I know i would have liked a say in the matter. Though i do like the look of it cut I also know i would want some say in the matter.

    The question should be... Do you want to have a say in the matter of someone taking a knife to your junk, even if in the name of religion?
    Terminus tela viaticus!

  4. #3
    No need for that, I think. Even though I personally believe that circumcision is a rightful choice to make as a parent, San Francisco is at least doing something right by keeping a ban local and up to voters.

  5. #4
    So you would want a say in how others anatomy looks lol
    Nice.

  6. #5
    I don't think parents should be able to have their children circumcised unless it is medically necessary. Unless you also think we should allow females to be circumcised. And why not let parents have arms or legs amputated too if their religion calls for it? This is a decision only the child has a right to make.

  7. #6
    How about it is a leave people alone or you will get shot issue?
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  8. #7
    To the original question, none of the above.

  9. #8
    I would say, personal.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden



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  11. #9
    No one has a right to mutilate a baby's genitals.
    "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."-Étienne de La Boétie

  12. #10
    The Federal Government has no business with a Womans Uterus or a Mans Penis.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

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    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  13. #11
    The federal government has no Constitutional authority to punish folks for this crime, IMO, unless you are talking about in federal territory like the District of Columbia.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  14. #12
    I would say circumcision is genital mutilation...however, I do not think even murder is a federal issue. The State's define muder, they decide the punishments for murder, so I'm sure they can handle a foreskin issue.

    I do want to reiterate though...it's an archaic and brutal mutilation of a male child's penis. The same reasoning for still doing this procedure is used to suggest pork isn't safe to eat either. It's outdated. Pork is safe now, we have refrigeration...and foreskin is okay now, we bathe more often and live in a much less infectous environment (people don't die in droves of infection anymore). We should really learn to give up this practice, like we gave up stoning people to death for every single one of the ten commandments, stopped hanging "witches", and stopped making excuses for slavery just because the Bible seemed to favor it, both Old and New Testament.

    Ps. Before you ask me "where in the Bible...", please google it first, you'll find most of your answers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerographica View Post

    Yes, I want to force consumers to buy trampolines, popcorn, environmental protection and national defense whether or not they really demand them. And I definitely want to outlaw all alternatives. Nobody should be allowed to compete with the state. Private security companies, private healthcare, private package delivery, private education, private disaster relief, private militias...should all be outlawed.
    ^Minimalist state socialism (minarchy) taken to its logical conclusions; communism.

  15. #13
    The answer is in. The Judge has decided that the local government can not make laws. Ballot measure deleted. Case closed.

    Judge orders San Francisco circumcision ban off ballot

    Judge Loretta M. Giorgi ordered San Francisco's director of elections to strike the measure from the city's ballot because she said that it is "expressly preempted" by the California Business and Professions Code.

    Under that statute, only the state is allowed to regulate medical procedures, and "the evidence presented is overwhelmingly persuasive that circumcision is a widely practiced medical procedure," the ruling said.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...0,290957.story
    And another reason to repost this:

    Here's what they do believe in: they believe in a vast legal system, where all laws are open to debate and litigation. A system where any position can be defended or attacked on a "legal" basis. A system where the most powerful generally get their way, regardless of the letter or intent of the law. A system where anything can be justified. A system which enables power to reside with those with the most knowledge of the law, and how to use and manipulate it. A system where maximum employment is enjoyed for all those who desire to support, sustain and profit from the legal system.

    They believe in no law at all, expertly disguised as a society fully enveloped in law.

    The Constitution is the worst sort of law for them. It's far too clear, simple and supreme. The best law in their eyes is ambiguous, convoluted, complex and with no priorities at all.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rael View Post
    I don't think parents should be able to have their children circumcised unless it is medically necessary. Unless you also think we should allow females to be circumcised. And why not let parents have arms or legs amputated too if their religion calls for it? This is a decision only the child has a right to make.
    +a zillion
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ProIndividual View Post
    I would say circumcision is genital mutilation...however, I do not think even murder is a federal issue. The State's define muder, they decide the punishments for murder, so I'm sure they can handle a foreskin issue.

    I do want to reiterate though...it's an archaic and brutal mutilation of a male child's penis. The same reasoning for still doing this procedure is used to suggest pork isn't safe to eat either. It's outdated. Pork is safe now, we have refrigeration...and foreskin is okay now, we bathe more often and live in a much less infectous environment (people don't die in droves of infection anymore). We should really learn to give up this practice, like we gave up stoning people to death for every single one of the ten commandments, stopped hanging "witches", and stopped making excuses for slavery just because the Bible seemed to favor it, both Old and New Testament.

    Ps. Before you ask me "where in the Bible...", please google it first, you'll find most of your answers.
    qft
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  18. #16
    The hysteria over circumcision isn't based in fact. There is no consensus among the medical community that it is in any way harmful. So no it shouldn't be illegal at any level of government.
    Zatch



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  20. #17
    Infant circumcision is a violation of one's right to his body and is immoral. Basic libertarian philosophy.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by specialkornflake View Post
    Infant circumcision is a violation of one's right to his body and is immoral. Basic libertarian philosophy.
    What about vaccinations?
    Zatch

  22. #19
    I'm circumsized. I don't miss it. I am happy I don't have to wash it especially carefully to avoid things like jock itch, yeast infection, and a variety of sexually transmitted infections. I don't have any trouble reaching sexual climax, and my sexual partners have made no complaints about my lack of foreskin. Indeed, the opposite seems to be the case. except for the time I lost my virginity, I haven't had any complaints of the female being unsatisfied herself. I've even been told I'm good.

    In Iraq, it wasn't a problem when I couldn't get a shower for sometimes weeks at a time. I really don't see what the big deal is for you guys. If it did become a health issue for you, you would be bitching that your parents hadn't done it when you were small enough not to remember.

    I had my oldest son's tonsils removed too. They were swollen and gave him sleep apnea. Not bad enough to be a serious problem at that time but there was a risk it could get worse. It's a lot less serious of a surgery for a toddler than for a teen or adult.

    Parents have the responsibility to take care of their children, and the right to do what they feel will accomplish this. Like it or not, circumcision has been proven to be an effective deterrant against many genital infections, and it was a choice my parents made for my well being, and I made for my boys as well. I love my father, and know that he always makes the best decisions he can for me even though I didn't always understand his decisions at the time, I do now. Likewise I doubt my sons will hate me for it as they love me, and I love them, and they will someday understand that all decisions I make for them at this early stage are made with the best knowledge and intentions. As teens, they will probably rebel, but when they have children of their own someday, they will come around. As it usually is in families. I would guess most of you circumcision haters are in your teens or early twenties and have no children of your own, and are still rebelling against your parents.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
    Level III MACP instructor, USYKA/WYKKO sensei
    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zatch View Post
    What about vaccinations?
    Removing a body part for debatedly limited medical benefit versus a vaccination are different. Do we remove appendixes and tonsils because of the chance of future problems?

  24. #21
    If foreskin was detrimental to our survival, then evolution wouldn't have favored it. Yet, evolution did favor it. Therefore, the benefits of having it outweigh the risks.

    Circumcision is an infringement upon property rights. It's funny how so many libertarians defend property rights until it comes to their own property-infringing religion. $#@!ing hypocrisy if you ask me.



    Also, watch what happens when you mention female circumcision in many circles. Under the statist lens, I really don't see the big deal. After all, if females were circumcised, they'd be too young to remember. Plus, it reduces their sexual pleasure so they're less likely to have as much sex, reducing the risk of STD transmission. I mean, gee, I don't see anything wrong.
    Last edited by kah13176; 07-28-2011 at 11:27 PM.
    "It is not enough these days to simply question authority. You must speak with it, too."
    -Taylor Mali


    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men."
    -Samuel Adams

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I'm circumsized. I don't miss it. I am happy I don't have to wash it especially carefully to avoid things like jock itch, yeast infection, and a variety of sexually transmitted infections. I don't have any trouble reaching sexual climax, and my sexual partners have made no complaints about my lack of foreskin. Indeed, the opposite seems to be the case. except for the time I lost my virginity, I haven't had any complaints of the female being unsatisfied herself. I've even been told I'm good.

    In Iraq, it wasn't a problem when I couldn't get a shower for sometimes weeks at a time. I really don't see what the big deal is for you guys. If it did become a health issue for you, you would be bitching that your parents hadn't done it when you were small enough not to remember.

    I had my oldest son's tonsils removed too. They were swollen and gave him sleep apnea. Not bad enough to be a serious problem at that time but there was a risk it could get worse. It's a lot less serious of a surgery for a toddler than for a teen or adult.

    Parents have the responsibility to take care of their children, and the right to do what they feel will accomplish this. Like it or not, circumcision has been proven to be an effective deterrant against many genital infections, and it was a choice my parents made for my well being, and I made for my boys as well. I love my father, and know that he always makes the best decisions he can for me even though I didn't always understand his decisions at the time, I do now. Likewise I doubt my sons will hate me for it as they love me, and I love them, and they will someday understand that all decisions I make for them at this early stage are made with the best knowledge and intentions. As teens, they will probably rebel, but when they have children of their own someday, they will come around. As it usually is in families. I would guess most of you circumcision haters are in your teens or early twenties and have no children of your own, and are still rebelling against your parents.
    A lot of mythology there^^. Circumcision has never been proven to prevent STDs or anything else(though that myth still survives for some reason). See this Mothering Magazine article. There is no medical justification for circumcision. As an uncut person myself, I can tell you that if you have problems with itching, it is because of poor hygene. If you take daily showers, it is not an issue. The smegma even has a biological purpose.
    "Smegma is probably the most misunderstood, most unjustifiably maligned substance in nature. Smegma is clean, not dirty, and is beneficial and necessary. It moisturizes the glans and keeps it smooth, soft, and supple. Its antibacterial and antiviral properties keep the penis clean and healthy. All mammals produce smegma. Thomas J. Ritter, MD [co-author of Say No to Circumcision] underscored its importance when he commented, 'The animal kingdom would probably cease to exist without smegma.'" ("Where Is My Foreskin? The Case Against Circumcision," by Paul M. Fleiss, MD, Mothering, Winter 1997)

    If you believe in individual rights, you cannot justify circumcising an infant who cannot consent any more than you can justify cutting off his eyelids.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 07-28-2011 at 11:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I'm circumsized. I don't miss it. I am happy I don't have to wash it especially carefully to avoid things like jock itch, yeast infection, and a variety of sexually transmitted infections. I don't have any trouble reaching sexual climax, and my sexual partners have made no complaints about my lack of foreskin. Indeed, the opposite seems to be the case. except for the time I lost my virginity, I haven't had any complaints of the female being unsatisfied herself. I've even been told I'm good.

    In Iraq, it wasn't a problem when I couldn't get a shower for sometimes weeks at a time. I really don't see what the big deal is for you guys. If it did become a health issue for you, you would be bitching that your parents hadn't done it when you were small enough not to remember.
    I'm glad it's worked for you, maybe we'd have a smaller military if circumcision was mandatory as an adult!

    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I had my oldest son's tonsils removed too. They were swollen and gave him sleep apnea. Not bad enough to be a serious problem at that time but there was a risk it could get worse. It's a lot less serious of a surgery for a toddler than for a teen or adult.
    This is different because they were causing a medical problem that not everyone has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    Parents have the responsibility to take care of their children, and the right to do what they feel will accomplish this. Like it or not, circumcision has been proven to be an effective deterrant against many genital infections, and it was a choice my parents made for my well being, and I made for my boys as well. I love my father, and know that he always makes the best decisions he can for me even though I didn't always understand his decisions at the time, I do now. Likewise I doubt my sons will hate me for it as they love me, and I love them, and they will someday understand that all decisions I make for them at this early stage are made with the best knowledge and intentions. As teens, they will probably rebel, but when they have children of their own someday, they will come around. As it usually is in families. I would guess most of you circumcision haters are in your teens or early twenties and have no children of your own, and are still rebelling against your parents.
    What matters most is that parents parent in the best manner possible, not necessarily what they think is right without doing the research first.

  27. #24
    Back to the subject of the OP:

    "Circumcision rights" are Municipal, State or Federal issue?

    How many local laws could be overturned by activist Judges on the grounds that it is the State's responsibility? And likewise, how many State laws can be overturned by saying that it is the Federal government's responsibility? Is this related to the battle over Arizona's "immigration" law?

    Judge orders San Francisco circumcision ban off ballot

    Judge Loretta M. Giorgi ordered San Francisco's director of elections to strike the measure from the city's ballot because she said that it is "expressly preempted" by the California Business and Professions Code.

    Under that statute, only the state is allowed to regulate medical procedures, and "the evidence presented is overwhelmingly persuasive that circumcision is a widely practiced medical procedure," the ruling said.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...0,290957.story
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    A lot of mythology there^^.
    Agree. No scientific proof for any benefits.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  30. #26
    Well the Bill of Rights applies to the Federal government and States both.

    So there can be some issues that neither can regulate.

  31. #27
    This was just a light hearted post, did not think Bill of Rights would be invoked

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by moderate libertarian View Post
    This was just a light hearted post, did not think Bill of Rights would be invoked
    For future reference, this topic tends to spark rather heated debate. Tread lightly when bringing it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I'm circumsized. I don't miss it. I am happy I don't have to wash it especially carefully to avoid things like jock itch, yeast infection, and a variety of sexually transmitted infections. I don't have any trouble reaching sexual climax, and my sexual partners have made no complaints about my lack of foreskin. Indeed, the opposite seems to be the case. except for the time I lost my virginity, I haven't had any complaints of the female being unsatisfied herself. I've even been told I'm good.

    In Iraq, it wasn't a problem when I couldn't get a shower for sometimes weeks at a time. I really don't see what the big deal is for you guys. If it did become a health issue for you, you would be bitching that your parents hadn't done it when you were small enough not to remember.

    I had my oldest son's tonsils removed too. They were swollen and gave him sleep apnea. Not bad enough to be a serious problem at that time but there was a risk it could get worse. It's a lot less serious of a surgery for a toddler than for a teen or adult.

    Parents have the responsibility to take care of their children, and the right to do what they feel will accomplish this. Like it or not, circumcision has been proven to be an effective deterrant against many genital infections, and it was a choice my parents made for my well being, and I made for my boys as well. I love my father, and know that he always makes the best decisions he can for me even though I didn't always understand his decisions at the time, I do now. Likewise I doubt my sons will hate me for it as they love me, and I love them, and they will someday understand that all decisions I make for them at this early stage are made with the best knowledge and intentions. As teens, they will probably rebel, but when they have children of their own someday, they will come around. As it usually is in families. I would guess most of you circumcision haters are in your teens or early twenties and have no children of your own, and are still rebelling against your parents.
    I'm giving you +rep for that—but fair warning, you're about to get flamed 'cause I said something similar a while back.

    ========

    I'm not too familiar with California's state constitution, but it does seem kind of odd that a state government has stepped in and stated that cities cannot make laws (tens of thousands of city ordinances could now be invalidated by this decision). San Fran also banned happy meals, 'for health reasons,' so for consistency the state would have to go after those ordinances, too.

    Should it go to Federal courts? No. The federal courts have no jurisdiction to interpret state law, although it doesn't stop people from trying to take every issue to the SCOTUS.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I'm circumsized. I don't miss it. I am happy I don't have to wash it especially carefully to avoid things like jock itch, yeast infection, and a variety of sexually transmitted infections. I don't have any trouble reaching sexual climax, and my sexual partners have made no complaints about my lack of foreskin. Indeed, the opposite seems to be the case. except for the time I lost my virginity, I haven't had any complaints of the female being unsatisfied herself. I've even been told I'm good.

    In Iraq, it wasn't a problem when I couldn't get a shower for sometimes weeks at a time. I really don't see what the big deal is for you guys. If it did become a health issue for you, you would be bitching that your parents hadn't done it when you were small enough not to remember.

    I had my oldest son's tonsils removed too. They were swollen and gave him sleep apnea. Not bad enough to be a serious problem at that time but there was a risk it could get worse. It's a lot less serious of a surgery for a toddler than for a teen or adult.

    Parents have the responsibility to take care of their children, and the right to do what they feel will accomplish this. Like it or not, circumcision has been proven to be an effective deterrant against many genital infections, and it was a choice my parents made for my well being, and I made for my boys as well. I love my father, and know that he always makes the best decisions he can for me even though I didn't always understand his decisions at the time, I do now. Likewise I doubt my sons will hate me for it as they love me, and I love them, and they will someday understand that all decisions I make for them at this early stage are made with the best knowledge and intentions. As teens, they will probably rebel, but when they have children of their own someday, they will come around. As it usually is in families. I would guess most of you circumcision haters are in your teens or early twenties and have no children of your own, and are still rebelling against your parents.
    I agree, +rep for that too.

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