My next blog post is going to be about how it isn't a contradiction to be a Christian and a libertarian. I already have a pretty good idea of what I will be writing, but I could use some assistance. If you have any ideas of points to make, I would love that. As well as anything else you may know about.
Mises.org: Religious Roots of Liberty
LewRockwell.com: How I Became a Christian Libertarian (Steven Yates)
LewRockwell.com: Is Libertarianism Compatible With Religion?
Lessons in Liberty: Christian Libertarianism
http://studentsforliberty.org/blog/l...ibertarianism/
Libertarian Christians
http://libertarianchristians.com/
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Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:
Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.
Search the religion board here. Lots of good stuff, especially in the last few months.
True Christianity is supposed to support liberty, love.
But it is important to ask the question to the right people, listening to "Christians" like the man who wrote Tea Party (NW) manifesto or likes of Bachmann could set you on path of ignorant practices of cursers and oppressors.
Last edited by doodle; 06-03-2011 at 12:52 AM.
One big point that I always come to is the force thing.
God doesn't force me, an individual, to live a God pleasing life (always room for improvement in my case), rather, God convinces me through faith, to live a God pleasing life.
I see the same awesome principles in the founding of our Country. If you have faith in liberty you are not out to force anything on anyone. Convince all you want, but never force.
Another big point that naturally goes with the first would be the individual.
It's between God and me. Between God and the individual.
Not between God and my family, not between God and my county, not between God and my canoe club, just between God and me.
Me being an American, an individual, is the same thing.
Don't judge me along with people in my neighborhood, don't lump me in with the people who look like me, don't pigeon-hole me with folks in my age group, don't stick me with people in a tax bracket, don't consider me guilty because I ride in an airplane with other people, etc., etc. etc.
Thanks for asking.
Bunkloco
God gives you a choice, the Government/King forces you.Originally Posted by bunklocoempire
One big point that I always come to is the force thing.God doesn't force me, an individual, to live a God pleasing life (always room for improvement in my case
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Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:
Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.
Imho, we as Christians are prone to abdicate our Christian responsibilities to the government. We want to merge church and state so we won't have to take on our responsibilities as Christians. Ex. The education of our children, taking care of the less fortunate, mandating moral living (laws against immoral activities) and so forth. The states’ role should be to guard the rights of its citizens as spelled out in the Constitution. In regard to Christians, to safeguard our ability to freely live out the Christian life style as spelled out in the Bible. This to me is what we should render unto Caesar, not our responsibilities as Christians. When you give the government the role of legislating laws concerning moral issues you run the risk of views in opposition to Christian views becoming law when immoral leaders come to power (do Christians really want the government defining marriage?). That is why we should be careful of supporting candidates who advocate laws that mandate the Christian lifestyle. That is not the government’s (Caesar’s) responsibility, that is the churches responsibility. You can’t force democracy through the barrel of a gun nor religion though the laws of man. It's all about guarding individual rights.
Last edited by Paulatized; 06-03-2011 at 06:35 AM.
Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
Thomas Paine
Our Christian Founding Fathers developed certain self evident truths by utilizing the science of natural law. The method of natural law differed from theoretical science as nations can't be established and maintained on a theory. As nothing exists that can be agreed upon in the partisan mind, a Truth (Christ) can be perceived unalienable in the collective conscience, heart, and soul.My next blog post is going to be about how it isn't a contradiction to be a Christian and a libertarian. I already have a pretty good idea of what I will be writing, but I could use some assistance. If you have any ideas of points to make, I would love that. As well as anything else you may know about.
As a consequence, if our Founders were alive today, they would be shooting any American choosing to fly a foreign flag over the one representing the United States while I'm certain the enemy would be disagreeing with them philosophically. If people are shooting at you, you don't stop to tell them that they should stop shooting at you because such a truth is self evident and unalienble. So, you shoot until all the shooting stops. When a person loads a gun and points it at you it is threatening. Likewise, when they fly a foreign flag, that is equally threatening. The proper sequence in establishing and maintaining a nation is to first establish order and then implement law.
Our nation today is being threatened by pimps. These pimps are allowing illegals into this nation with the excuse that they desperately need jobs. Well, when our Founders were equally desperate they went to war. In doing so, our nation was cut off from the British economy.
It is about time that all these desperate illegal Mexicans earned their freedom by fighting for what they are receiving so freely in this nation. I'm not saying that they should be fighting here, but they need to go home and fight as Mexicans against the tyranny persecuting the Mexican people.
Last edited by Uncle Emanuel Watkins; 06-03-2011 at 08:12 AM.
jesus had long hair, dressed in a robe and walked around in sandals! He was the 1st hippie and would have totally hung out with the libertarian collage kids who drink wine and talk about odd $#@! all day.
PLUS THE MAN WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO KEEP HIM DOWN!!!
Last edited by Carehn; 06-03-2011 at 08:33 AM.
Terminus tela viaticus!
I always use the "force" argument as well... God gets no glory if people are "forced" to obey...
Adam and Eve as well... God could have made it impossible for them to even see the forbidden fruit, much less grab it, but it was their choice... If God won't "force" you to obey him, why should "man"?
Also, you don't want Government forcing religion because different religions within Christianity do things differently, what then would be the "correct" religion?
Also, if our government has power to control us in a manner that makes us walk the line of Christianity, wouldn't the next rulers and the next have the power to make us walk other lines?
We should be "free" to practice our religions as we see fit (as long as it does not take property/life etc...) not "made" to do so!
I haven't read it yet, but Gary North wrote 10,000 pages of Scriptural exposition showing that capitalism is the only economic system consistent with the teachings of Scripture.
http://www.garynorth.com/public/department57.cfm
All other economic systems restrict liberty, so there you go.
Other thoughts:
-The OT Hebrews' system of Judges seems very similar to anarchocapitalism's suggestions for how to achieve justice without the state.
-1 Samuel 8 institutes the state, but does so as a curse for doubting that the Lord was capable of taking care of things without it.
-IIRC Scripture is fairly silent on the issue of whether to defer to the state from then until the NT, except to take great pains to point out how horrible the great majority of their governments were.
-Despite the fact that they were living in a theocratic monarchy, they needed a steady stream of prophets showing up and explaining in no uncertain terms that they were doing things contrary to the will of the Lord. i.e., they were not better Hebrews/Jews under the state: if anything, they were worse.
-The Zealots living during Christs' ministry thought that the messiah would remove Rome from the equation and return the state to the Jews. Christ did no such thing. Things got worse afterward. We can therefore reason that Christ has little interest in returning the state to His people, and has little interest in the maintenance of the existing state.
-Paul and Peter both wrote that we are to obey the authorities, excepting those cases where they tell us to go against God.
-Our system of government is founded on the idea of the rule of law, expressed in two documents.
-One of those documents explicitly states that governments are instituted for the protection of rights. It further states that when a government becomes destructive of rights, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.
-That document is a governing authority and therefore defines what is in concord with the teachings of Peter and Paul.
-The rule of men, which has supplanted those documents, contradicts those documents, is not a valid ruling authority, and is therefore not in concord with the teachings of Peter and Paul.
Last edited by fisharmor; 06-03-2011 at 09:55 AM.
There are no crimes against people.
There are only crimes against the state.
And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.
I really like Douglas Wilson. If you want a 5 minute relevant example that will hit on liberty/morality, try this...
http://www.canonwired.com/featured/prostitution/
Look at some of Ron's interviews.
"Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul
"Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden
The recent one where he addressed the Christian homeschool crowd was great.
This times a billion.
Also, legalism kills passion. Look at the masses, they have no interest in politics past what talking points they may happen to hear or what tradition they carry with them. It can be the same in the church. "Touch not" "look not" "hear not" and "do this or" can quickly quench a person's genuine excitement in Christ, take one's focus off of God and place it on man's inane rules and encourage a spirit of laziness (I'll just believe whatever pastor x tells me to).
That doesn't mean I don't prescribe to the idea of sin, because I do. But the Bible is clear on what sin is. There are clear lists in the NT and lot of those things seek to do harm against another person if carried out. That, or they are self destructive behaviors.
Even God doesn't use force to stop us from sinning. Why should I require that the government use threat of force to prohibit someone from doing something that I disagree with (unless it clearly harms another human)?
Last edited by flightlesskiwi; 06-03-2011 at 01:32 PM.
Forget every single response above - this is all you need. Direct from the Bible and posted by DisillusionedPatriot:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ight=religious
There are a number of issues on which Ron Paul supporters can attempt to connect and reason with the religious right. I'm sure there are many more, but these are a few that came instantly to my mind. It is worthwhile attempting to ally with this crowd to a considerable extent. The religious right claims to (and in many instances, I believe, truly does) believe that the Bible is the holy and inspired word of God. Its message of liberty and freedom is one that would often surprise all of us.
1. INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY
Leviticus 25:10 reads: "Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants."
Furthermore, to see by contrast what God thinks about liberty, consider the Anti-Christ. He establishes the ultimate totalitarian regime, in which he attempts to completely subject all rights of all people on earth.
2. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY
Galations 6:4-7 : "Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, for each one should carry their own load. [...] Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."
The Bible teaches that each individual will come of age and accountability, and that after that point he will be held accountable for his actions. The Founding Fathers warned that for the republic to last, its citizenry must be both educated and moral. Many explicitly stated that the Bible provided the best moral code.
3. PROTESTANT WORK ETHIC
1 Timothy 5:8 “If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
Ecclestiastes 3:13: “That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil--this is the gift of God.”
Ephesians 4:28: “He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.”
4. ABORTION
Psalm 139: 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
5. TAX WITHHOLDING
Jesus said that, "the laborer is worthy of his wages.” (Luke 10:7)
In fact, there is an important Biblical concept of "first fruits" (e.g. see Deuteronomy 26) and the intent is clear: God is supposed to receive the first portion of anything we earn. This is to signify that all we have is God's, and that he is merely blessing us with its use.
Direct withholding, such as for social security or medicaid, attempts to usurp God's rightful prerogative - i.e. that his cut will come out first, right off the top. It further increases the likelihood that God will not receive his fair share if people choose to tithe based on their take-home income.
6. CHARITY
The Bible is very clear about charity. It only counts if it is done in a loving, giving, and even selfless spirit. This is the message of the parable of the Widow's Mite.
When government purports to act charitably (be it through foreign aid, public education, food stamps, what have you) it does not do so and instead commits the sin of theft. To force a person to surrender their own rightful belongings to another is coercion under any name. It is also a blow to the charitable spirit, as people who find themselves robbed might consider their charitable donations finished and will be less inclined to give freely and from the heart.
7. PARENTAL RIGHTS
The government, through state and federal Child Protective agencies, has been routinely harassing Christian families for such issues as homeschooling, overt religious expression, and use of corporal punishment.
Proverbs 13:24 "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."
Deuteronomy 11:18-19 "Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up."
8. WEED
Sometimes I run up against a religious person who is absurdly anti-marijuana and will not consider libertarians who advocate for legalization. I dispute them thus:
In Genesis 1:29, God said to Adam and Eve, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." I think it's interesting that marijuana is a seed-bearing plant which stimulates the appetite. Men are often deluded, but the Bible says God is never wrong.
The Heart of Conservatism is Libertarianism - Ronald Reagan
Great stuff, thanks everyone!
A true libertarian will remove the shackles of a fairy in the sky telling him/her what to do. Just as bad as big government telling you what to do. Only with religion, you *think* you have a choice. Hint: you don't. Many people are raised (indoctrinated) from birth to follow religious cults. It is the antithesis to liberty, freedom, and nature.
Start from the Bible first and foremost. Don't go into it trying to pin libertarian ideas in places where they don't exist. Original intent applies here just as much as our Constitution.My next blog post is going to be about how it isn't a contradiction to be a Christian and a libertarian. I already have a pretty good idea of what I will be writing, but I could use some assistance. If you have any ideas of points to make, I would love that. As well as anything else you may know about.
Remember to practice exegesis.
MainStream Media is always referring to Ron Paul as a libertarian.My next blog post is going to be about how it isn't a contradiction to be a Christian and a libertarian. I already have a pretty good idea of what I will be writing, but I could use some assistance. If you have any ideas of points to make, I would love that. As well as anything else you may know about.
Ron Paul exhibits every character trait that a Christian is supposed to have.
Maybe you could use both the libertarian aspect of Ron Paul, and his life examples, to your advantage?
There's only one problem with this. The Christians that I associate with have been totally brainwashed by Neoconservative propaganda (Fox News). You'll have to get the Fox out of the Christian before any headway is made.
Maybe you'll first need to point out the contradiction of being a Christian and a Neoconservative?
Last edited by 123tim; 06-04-2011 at 05:28 PM.
★★★ A vote against Ron Paul is a vote for Obama ★★★
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...22#post4013522
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance...it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking
I real libertarian wouldn't care what others thought on such issues to the point that it got under their skin and made them lash out with statements they do not understand nor likely care to understand, which is just fine, it is your choice.
I am a christian, I am not religious, because religion is an organized set of rules and order and legalism, which is not the relationship that is intended.
Last edited by steph3n; 06-04-2011 at 07:15 AM.
Thanks for the link.
Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
Thomas Paine
Don't worry guys, this is still coming!
You better stay off those submission threads on "The Well Trained Mind" forum ... lol
lol! taking up too much of my time? Who are you over there?
I just read the forums. I noticed your username looked familiar. I don't have children yet but I like the WTM model and hope to use it if I'm able.
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