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Thread: How I got 2 democrats to be AGAINST raising taxes on the rich

  1. #1

    How I got 2 democrats to be AGAINST raising taxes on the rich

    This was a fun exercise I had with two coworkers and they finally saw the light. Maybe you can play this game, too.

    Background - they full supported Obama and think republicans just want to keep thier rich buddies from having to help us out of this crisis. Waxing philosophically never works with these folks.

    Here's how the conversation went:

    Them: All pissed off saying the rich should pay more and they're just so greedy.
    Me: Ok, let's say we raise their taxes. How much?
    Them: Not all of it, just like 10%
    Me: Ok, where do they get that money.
    Them: huh? they're rich. They have lots of money.
    Me: Well, yeah, but where do they have it? In their mattresses?
    Them: No, either in the banks or in their investments.
    Me: So, if government takes 10% of that they'll have to take it out of the banks or their investments?
    Them: Yeah. So what, they don't need it. It's not like they'll be hurting.
    Me: But what about the companies that rely on those investments? That's a 10% reduction in the money they'll be getting.
    Them: (puzzled, but the light starting to come on)
    Me: What happens when companies have less money to borrow from the banks or less money from people investing in them? Won't they have to cut jobs?
    Them: Not necessarily, they could just eat it.
    Me: When does that ever happen? If they lose profits, other people will stop investing in them and your 401k will take another huge hit.
    Them: Maybe they'll just operate more efficiently and quit wasting money.
    Me: Well, I'd say most companies are running about as lean as they can right now. If they could just save money, they'd already be doing it. They can either raise prices or fire people.
    Them: Hmmm... There's got to be a way to make the rich pay more without hurting everyone else?
    Me: Really?
    Them: Yeah, why else would they be talking about raising taxes?
    Me: Good question - maybe because government wants someone to blame and the rich are an easy target? I mean, the economy's in the $#@!ter and taxing it more is not going to help. The last thing you should want to do now is take anymore money out of the economy and funnel it through Washington!

    Them: You make a good point.


    I wish I had a recording of that conversation! They still hate the rich, but now they see the foolishness of raising taxes on them. I usually don't get very much time to make arguments with them so asking them questions seemed to work pretty well. They just have never asked the right questions themselves, I just guided them through.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  3. #2
    Very, very good!

  4. #3
    The rich employ many liberals who want their taxes increased. What are the rich doing about the Democrats they employ who want their costs raised/taxes increased?

  5. #4
    +1

    I also use a similar strategy & talk about their savings > banks/business-investments > raising taxes > less savings > less in banks/business-investments > less jobs > less goods/services produced > higher prices for goods/services due to lowered supply
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  6. #5
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    good food for thought.. im going to try it

  7. #6
    Have you ever gotten a job from a poor person?

  8. #7
    good job!

    we all are having to cut our spending, so Washington should have to cut theirs too. Right?

  9. #8
    Great job!
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  11. #9
    raising taxes on the rich also lowers donations to charities.

  12. #10
    bump
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa
    Liberty works best not because liberty is without responsibility, but because responsibility is part of the deal. Capitalism works best not because capitalists love us and want us to be happy, but because the more government you have, the more government they can buy, and if they have no government to buy then all they can do instead is compete--compete to serve us better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
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  13. #11
    I always argue that giving more revenue to the government, regardless of the source, gives them more ability to militarize the police, wage more war, raid medical marijuana clinics, raw milk facilities, etc. It's not like any politician, left or right, is seriously talking about giving more benefits to the old, poor or handicapped. Not to mention, even if you love Obama--what will the next neocon president do with more revenue?

    Oh, and the rich will still have loopholes, that ain't gonna change.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  14. #12
    Use the pool example where governments dont create jobs/help.

    All they do is steal water from one end of the pool where its needed and move it to the other for their cronies.

    If they really did care and help, why is it of all things, that our infrastructure and SS crumbling?
    Ron Paul let the cat out of the bag.

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  15. #13
    I wish the rich Republicans would pay for these stupid wars we are in. They wanted them, and they started them. It is not fair to us poorer people who did not want the wars, but we are the ones who will end up paying for this mess.
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth

  16. #14
    it's insane to me that people think rich people are just storing heaps of money in the bank. Rich people provide all of the jobs. Rich people open all of the new businesses. Rich people purchase tons of expensive things. Rich people do the most donating. Without being rich to try to attain how many of us would even try hard? How many people would try to open a company or invent something new if they werent going to get rich from it?
    Also when people here that i'm against rich people being taxed unfairly they automatically assume I'm for loopholes, tax breaks, and and subsidies to rich coorporations. And I have to remind them that I don't want rich people taxed unequally negatively or positively.

  17. #15
    Very, very well articulated. Your approach is awesome, and I intend to learn from it.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  18. #16
    Im all for ppl keeping what they earn (all of it), but there are many uber-wealthy folks who live off corporate welfare. That stuff's gotta stop.



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  20. #17
    We've got bigger problems than worrying about the rich.
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
    Im all for ppl keeping what they earn (all of it), but there are many uber-wealthy folks who live off corporate welfare. That stuff's gotta stop.
    Agreed.

    Although I think it's unrealistic and not gonna happen, If someone gets rich off of the taxpayer, tax 'em. Otherwise, let it be.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor View Post
    Agreed.

    Although I think it's unrealistic and not gonna happen, If someone gets rich off of the taxpayer, tax 'em. Otherwise, let it be.
    It can be reduced in certain areas, ie those who profit off war/the MIC. That's where Ron would make a big difference.
    Last edited by Echoes; 07-12-2011 at 06:06 PM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I wish I had a recording of that conversation!
    This exchange would make a great xtranormal cartoon. (ex. below)



  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    I wish the rich Republicans would pay for these stupid wars we are in. They wanted them, and they started them. It is not fair to us poorer people who did not want the wars, but we are the ones who will end up paying for this mess.
    This is an interesting concept - or make the constituents pay for them. If your representative voted for something that costs more money, you pay for it. Certainly would make people more careful about who they vote into office! All people would care about is putting in the person who will spend the least amount of money! Frees up people, frees up the economy, BOOM, prosperity and freedom.

  25. #22
    Good job O.P. I've found asking questions is an effective way to sway people as well.
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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BamaAla View Post
    Good job O.P. I've found asking questions is an effective way to sway people as well.
    It may well be the only way. If their own thought process brings them to a conclusion, they feel like they thought it up. That's more lasting than any evidence you can show to them or any solid arguments you make.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  27. #24
    How about this for an update!!!

    One of these coworkers - remember, heavy democrat and union type - came up to me this morning telling me he was looking up Ron Paul on the internets. He said he liked a lot of what Paul was talking about. I said, "yeah, he's the best of both worlds. When the democrats are right, he's with them, and when the republicans are right, he's with them. Except that Paul is right because of principle; not because of who's donating to his campaign!" I gave him one of my new "Restore America Now" slim jims.

    I think I got a new convert! And it all started with these little questions I posed to him about economics. You guys must do this! It works!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  29. #25
    Corporate profits and rich profits are at all time highs. Raising taxes on them right now would do little to hurt the "growth" we are having. We have had much higher taxes in the past, and other countries have much higher taxes.

    Trickle down economics is a laughably false theory rejected by even Reagan's own economists.

  30. #26
    When "Trickle down" is dictated by The State...yeah you're goddamn right it's a failure. When trickle down is appointed by the market - it ends up working...well...amazing.

    State Corporations and Free enterprises ARE NOT THE SAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by reillym View Post
    Corporate profits and rich profits are at all time highs. Raising taxes on them right now would do little to hurt the "growth" we are having. We have had much higher taxes in the past, and other countries have much higher taxes.

    Trickle down economics is a laughably false theory rejected by even Reagan's own economists.

  31. #27
    Keep it up. + rep.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    How about this for an update!!!

    One of these coworkers - remember, heavy democrat and union type - came up to me this morning telling me he was looking up Ron Paul on the internets. He said he liked a lot of what Paul was talking about. I said, "yeah, he's the best of both worlds. When the democrats are right, he's with them, and when the republicans are right, he's with them. Except that Paul is right because of principle; not because of who's donating to his campaign!" I gave him one of my new "Restore America Now" slim jims.

    I think I got a new convert! And it all started with these little questions I posed to him about economics. You guys must do this! It works!

  32. #28
    Socratic Method FTW! Nice job CaptUSA +rep

    Have you used the Socratic Method before or was this your first time? I ask because I use it all the time whenever I want people to try & think logically about an issue & have found it to be by far the best tactic to discuss economics with Democrats/progressives/socialists. Most of them have never thought through the problems with logic & operate much more on an emotional level. The first time I used it I had no idea what I was doing until someone who was observing the debate I was having pointed it out to me afterwards. I no longer attempt to "debate" someone with an irrational stance &/or policy anymore. Instead I immediately turn to the Socratic Method & force them to think their position through.

    Everybody who reads this thread who does not know what the Socratic Method is &/or how to use it please go educate yourself on this as it is quite possibly the greatest weapon in the arsenal of liberty for activists to use when discussing economics & trying to get people to think rationally. I personally have turned over 100 former "leftists" into libertarian leaning at least with just this one tactic.
    "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding it's way through our political & cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'." ~Isaac Asimov

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

  33. #29
    Email that circulated in late 2008:

    The CEO of a business that employees 140 people, is faced with the fact that Barack Obama will be our next President, and that our taxes and government fees will increase in a BIG way.

    To compensate for these increases, he figures that either the Clients will have to see an increase in fees of about 8% or he will have to lay off six employees. Since he cannot increase fees due to the dismal state of the economy, he is forced to make layoffs. Troubled about that fact since he has always thought of his company as family and didn’t know how to choose who will have to go first.

    So, he strolled thru the parking lot and found 8 Obama bumper stickers on employees’ cars and have decided these folks will be the first to be laid off.

    Can you think of a more fair way to approach this problem? These folks wanted change; he gave it to them.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
    Level III MACP instructor, USYKA/WYKKO sensei
    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    Socratic Method FTW! Nice job CaptUSA +rep

    Have you used the Socratic Method before or was this your first time? I ask because I use it all the time whenever I want people to try & think logically about an issue & have found it to be by far the best tactic to discuss economics with Democrats/progressives/socialists. Most of them have never thought through the problems with logic & operate much more on an emotional level. The first time I used it I had no idea what I was doing until someone who was observing the debate I was having pointed it out to me afterwards. I no longer attempt to "debate" someone with an irrational stance &/or policy anymore. Instead I immediately turn to the Socratic Method & force them to think their position through.

    Everybody who reads this thread who does not know what the Socratic Method is &/or how to use it please go educate yourself on this as it is quite possibly the greatest weapon in the arsenal of liberty for activists to use when discussing economics & trying to get people to think rationally. I personally have turned over 100 former "leftists" into libertarian leaning at least with just this one tactic.
    You know, I've heard about the Socratic method, but I wasn't consciously utilizing it. It's just that these folks don't really spend a whole lot of time digging into these things, so I figured I'd ask them a few easy questions that they failed to realize.

    By the way, the guy I was talking to this morning was wearing a union t-shirt that read, and I'm not making this up, "United We Bargain, Divided We Beg." I didn't even broach that subject - maybe another time.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

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