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Thread: Socialism means Common Ownership/Collective Ownership and or State/Government Ownership of

  1. #1

    Question Socialism means Common Ownership/Collective Ownership and or State/Government Ownership of

    Socialism means Common Ownership/Collective Ownership and or State/Government Ownership of the means of production property wealth and businesses my question is how are Democrats Socialists because they believe in a Progressive or Graduated Income Tax Socialists don't believe in private property rights also read the Book Animal Farm by George Orwell ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership



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  3. #2

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    Compare the state of the medical industry now to what it was in the Eisenhower Administration, and look at how the costs of it have outstripped inflation.

    And also remember that socialism is often used as a euphemism for corporatism/fascism. Not because it is, nor because socialists want corporatism, but because that is the sort of 'incrementalism' the powers that be have profitably employed to placate liberals over the decades.
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    Actually that is only a part of socialism, one facet of many.
    corporatism in some ways fulfills that aspect. The Collusion between government and Business/Production.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And also remember that socialism is often used as a euphemism for corporatism/fascism. Not because it is, nor because socialists want corporatism, but because that is the sort of 'incrementalism' the powers that be have profitably employed to placate liberals over the decades.
    What about Sweden? It is a socialist country, but not fascist, nor is it a tyranny. The people of Sweden wanted socialism, and I think that makes a difference between forced socialism, which is what America is facing, and socialism that is wanted by the people.
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by aid632007 View Post
    Socialism means Common Ownership/Collective Ownership and or State/Government Ownership of the means of production...
    Where did you get that definition? It's propaganda through manipulation of language and terminology. It's intentional.

    Collective ownership is Communism, not Socialism. Early Communists didn't like Socialists. The division between Socialism and Communism has been blurred, so that they can make the argument that you just asked about.
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  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by aid632007 View Post
    Socialism means Common Ownership/Collective Ownership and or State/Government Ownership of the means of production property wealth and businesses my question is how are Democrats Socialists because they believe in a Progressive or Graduated Income Tax Socialists don't believe in private property rights also read the Book Animal Farm by George Orwell ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership
    They aren't. They're corporatist. Ignorant people on the right people like to throw around socialist a lot to demonize people, even though the people they attempt to demonize with it aren't socialist. Likewise a lot of ignorant people on the left think we have a capitalist economy now and blame free markets for the failings when we have a corporatist economy.

    That said, we don't have privacy property in America, so you can make the argument that both parties oppose private property rights since neither has done anything to institute actual private property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    What about Sweden? It is a socialist country, but not fascist, nor is it a tyranny. The people of Sweden wanted socialism, and I think that makes a difference between forced socialism, which is what America is facing, and socialism that is wanted by the people.
    Is it socialist? Isn't it just "Social Democracy" or whatever. Still "capitalist", but with a heavy welfare state.
    I don't think there is an actual socialist country, just as there isn't a free market capitalist country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    What about Sweden? It is a socialist country, but not fascist, nor is it a tyranny. The people of Sweden wanted socialism, and I think that makes a difference between forced socialism, which is what America is facing, and socialism that is wanted by the people.
    Economic fascism = Mussolini's fascism. A Partnership between government and an Oligopoly of the largest corporate interests. Gains are privatized, losses are socialized.
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    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Economic fascism = Mussolini's fascism. A Partnership between government and an Oligopoly of the largest corporate interests. Gains are privatized, losses are socialized.
    Sounds a lot like America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    What about Sweden? It is a socialist country, but not fascist, nor is it a tyranny. The people of Sweden wanted socialism, and I think that makes a difference between forced socialism, which is what America is facing, and socialism that is wanted by the people.
    What ChaosControl said. Have you read GreenCardSeeker's stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    What about Sweden? It is a socialist country, but not fascist, nor is it a tyranny. The people of Sweden wanted socialism, and I think that makes a difference between forced socialism, which is what America is facing, and socialism that is wanted by the people.
    Make sure to tell that to the Market Swedes whom do not want Socialism, that they want Socialism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aid632007 View Post
    Socialism means Common Ownership/Collective Ownership and or State/Government Ownership of the means of production property wealth and businesses my question is how are Democrats Socialists because they believe in a Progressive or Graduated Income Tax Socialists don't believe in private property rights also read the Book Animal Farm by George Orwell ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership
    The progressive income tax is a socialist program, but it isn't really the reason why the Democrats (and, for that matter, Republicans as well) should be seen as largely socialist in their outlook. The main plank of socialism, as you have said, is government ownership of business.

    Now, what is ownership? It consists in authority over what is owned. When I say that I "own" a shirt, this indicates that I have the authority to wear the shirt or decide who else can wear it, alter it, destroy it, sell it, etc. Now, if a third party were to come in and begin commanding me, under threat of force, to pay them a stipend in order to keep my shirt, to wear my shirt only at certain times of day, to use certain criteria in selling my shirt, etc., then said third party would clearly have at the least usurped a very large portion of the authority of ownership from me, whether they held a deed to the shirt or not. Though the law does not formally say that government owns businesses in America, the government has effectively usurped property rights over business from their rightful owners.

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    The Government is socialism . Military, Courts, Roads, etc. I mean I can go on and on. The very essence and nature of Government resolves wholly around the principles of socialism. It's why I chuckle a bit at the people who scream about socialism, then are perfectly fine with socialized garbage collection, roads, courts, law, defense, education industry, etc. Honestly, most people probably do not think these things through to much. Perhaps more people need to start spending all day at the DMV to see what socialism does to society.
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui même

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

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  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    What about Sweden? It is a socialist country, but not fascist, nor is it a tyranny. The people of Sweden wanted socialism, and I think that makes a difference between forced socialism, which is what America is facing, and socialism that is wanted by the people.
    So every single individual in Sweden wanted socialism?
    "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."-Étienne de La Boétie

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    We have to remember too, there is a difference between State Socialism and Stateless Socialism...the guy in my quotes below, Benjamin Tucker, wrote a book on it.

    It's like comparing rape to S&M sex, or assault to boxing...I don't recommend whips and chains for sex, nor do I recommend being punched in the face; the difference is voluntary participation and a lack of coerced uniformity. Although I see S&M sex and boxing as harmful, as long as I am not forced to participate they are fine by me.

    State Socialism is what you're describing...and Stateless Socialism only exists in small pockets in the world. Property concepts vary actually, so you can't make blanket assertions about it. The Amish in the USA are in many ways pascifist anarcho-communists. They refuse to recognize the State, fight in wars, are exempt from certain taxes, exempt from building codes, and largely replace the State with the Church. Although they have private property concepts, all income over a certain amount is given to the Church for redistribution. Children have the ability to opt out of being Amish at a certain age, and even get a period of time to explore the other side of life, making this Stateless form of Socialism essentially voluntary. No one is forced to be Amish, their social contract is competely optional for all adults.

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by ProIndividual; 06-27-2011 at 06:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerographica View Post

    Yes, I want to force consumers to buy trampolines, popcorn, environmental protection and national defense whether or not they really demand them. And I definitely want to outlaw all alternatives. Nobody should be allowed to compete with the state. Private security companies, private healthcare, private package delivery, private education, private disaster relief, private militias...should all be outlawed.
    ^Minimalist state socialism (minarchy) taken to its logical conclusions; communism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vessol View Post
    So every single individual in Sweden wanted socialism?
    No, why do you ask that? The majority of people in Sweden like their socialist programs, and there are those who do not, but they are in the minority. America is not Sweden. Socialism has to be forced on us, which is exactly what is happening. But isn't it interesting that Swedes are happier than Americans, Swedes mind their own business (they are non-interventionist; didn't even fight in WW2), and they don't have a $14.3 trillion debt, unlike us, the model of freedom, liberty and free markets. My point is: to each their own. What is good for the goose is not always good for the gander. There is a hatred on this forum by some members for socialism, and that may be rightly so with regards to it being forced on us in our own country. But, some people in other countries are quite content and happy with their socialism, so putting labels on socialism doesn't always apply.
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth

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    Words get twisted over time. Socialism is a particularly egregious example. Before Marx the term didn't actually mean government ownership of the means of production. Benjamin Tucker goes into detail on the history of the term in the first chapter of Individual Liberty. It was an attack on the old aristocracies and illegitimate claims on wealth. The problem was that they were economically illiterate and couldn't distinguish between a free market capitalist and the statist exploiters. This was a time when the labor theory of value was still prominent and property was not well understood.

    Marx and friends shifted the term to mean 'state control of the means of production'. It sort of melded with the term communism in the public mind. Tucker clearly points out the difference between state socialism and his version. After the Soviet Union fell and it became clear that blatant central planning did not work socialism got shifted once again into its modern form. Now its just a 'feel good' word that has no substance whatsoever. As ChaosControl pointed out we call Sweden socialist even though that doesn't fit with the first two definitions.

    I personally use the second term in conversation just to clarify but also acknowledge the existence of the anti state socialists.

    Edit: Oops, I wasn't paying attention and YumYum mentioned Tucker already.
    Last edited by josh b; 06-27-2011 at 07:17 PM.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh b View Post
    Words get twisted over time. Socialism is a particularly egregious example. Before Marx the term didn't actually mean government ownership of the means of production. Benjamin Tucker goes into detail on the history of the term in the first chapter of Individual Liberty. It was an attack on the old aristocracies and illegitimate claims on wealth. The problem was that they were economically illiterate and couldn't distinguish between a free market capitalist and the statist exploiters. This was a time when the labor theory of value was still prominent and property was not well understood.

    Marx and friends shifted the term to mean 'state control of the means of production'. It sort of melded with the term communism in the public mind. Tucker clearly points out the difference between state socialism and his version. After the Soviet Union fell and it became clear that blatant central planning did not work socialism got shifted once again into its modern form. Now its just a 'feel good' word that has no substance whatsoever. As ChaosControl pointed out we call Sweden socialist even though that doesn't fit with the first two definitions.

    I personally use the second term in conversation just to clarify but also acknowledge the existence of the anti state socialists.

    Edit: Oops, I wasn't paying attention and YumYum mentioned Tucker already.
    Well, since Bastiat pre-dated Tucker, and Bastiat was quite explicit in defining socialism, I prefer his definition over Tucker's. Tucker always seemed to me much more Georgist in thought, and later on turned more towards the likes of Emma Goldman. There is a difference between State-socialism and An-Socialism though, so that distinction should at least be made. (The Catholic Church is probably the best example)
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui même

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

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  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    Well, since Bastiat pre-dated Tucker, and Bastiat was quite explicit in defining socialism, I prefer his definition over Tucker's. Tucker always seemed to me much more Georgist in thought, and later on turned more towards the likes of Emma Goldman. There is a difference between State-socialism and An-Socialism though, so that distinction should at least be made. (The Catholic Church is probably the best example)
    That's a good point, I forgot about Bastiat and Molinari using the term so early. This was something I rattled off the top of my memory. It doesn't matter though. The An-socialists were hypocrits anyways. They usually turned to violence when their systems didn't work. Theory and practice don't mix when your system's broken.






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