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Thread: Greece: again...

  1. #1

    Greece: again...

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Greek-...4&asset=&ccode

    Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou said Greece would not be able to honor its obligations if it did not obtain the next tranche of bailout loans. The IMF has made clear it cannot disburse money if Greece's 2012 EU funding is not assured.

    wonder if we're going to perform more credit default swaps?

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!



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  3. #2
    The situation here is getting "funny". The "problem" is that in the last elections in Germany and other central european countries every party that supported the EU and the PIGS bailouts got crushed while the parties that opposed the current movements of the EU surged incredibly.

    The population does not want to pay for the PIGS mess (which is completely understandable) but the political-financial class wants to: the PIGS own the majority of the money to central european banks. If the PIGS dont pay the banks will suffer, this is the reason why the political class wants their citizens to pay. But now they are scared that if they do they will get crashed in the elections.

    So right now the whole situation is kind of paralized while at the same time Greece is saying that they only have money to survive until July. In my opinion the EU politicians are looking for a formula that will make the central european citizens pay for the PIGS mess (so they can repay the banks) but in a subtle way so the majority does not understand what they are really doing and does not complain.

  4. #3
    Yeah there's nothing quite like winning an election on some message and then trying to maintain your credibility while you ditch that message and just do what the former government did..

    I walk among people and look at them and all I see is stupid animals getting played left and right. And it sucks so much.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    Yeah there's nothing quite like winning an election on some message and then trying to maintain your credibility while you ditch that message and just do what the former government did..

    I walk among people and look at them and all I see is stupid animals getting played left and right. And it sucks so much.
    You might like my extended take of the issue I published:

    (spanish) http://www.libremercado.com/2011-05-...pa-1276423261/

    (google translate) http://translate.google.com/translat...-1276423261%2F

  6. #5
    nice writeup, I liked that debt to gdp graph, didn't realize my country was doing so "good"
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    nice writeup, I liked that debt to gdp graph, didn't realize my country was doing so "good"
    Thanks.

    I love that graph. Shows the joke that the the UE rules are.

  8. #7
    Germany says, "No More Bailouts, until you make true cuts and fix your problems..." The Greeks are calling the Germans "NAZIS" again... there's one way to never get financial assistance.

    So out of the $70 Trillion world economy... Greece will default on their $488 Billion. The Greeks deserve what they get for not abiding to deeper austerity measures. Our nation is headed for the same, and the loss of the Republican seat in conservative upstate New York yesterday is the resultant thinking of US voters. A Society of Narcissism, want their entitlements right up to the collapse. John Stossel was dead on correct label on the senior vote "Greedy Geezers" won the seat for a Democrat in NY.

    Hope Ron gets his message square on the campaign trail about all this "I paid into the system and I'm entitled to it all" voter mentality.
    Last edited by HOLLYWOOD; 05-25-2011 at 10:55 AM.
    The American Dream, Wake Up People, This is our country! <===click

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    June 1826



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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    Germany says, "No More Bailouts, until you make true cuts and fix your problems..." The Greeks are calling the Germans "NAZIS" again... there's one way to never get financial assistance.

    So out of the $70 Trillion world economy... Greece will default on their $488 Billion. The Greeks deserve what they get for not abiding to deeper austerity measures. Our nation is headed for the same, and the loss of the Republican seat in conservative upstate New York yesterday is the resultant thinking of US voters. A Society of Narcissism, want their entitlements right up to the collapse. John Stossel was dead on correct label on the senior vote "Greedy Geezers" won the seat for a Democrat in NY.

    Hope Ron gets his message square on the campaign trail about all this "I paid into the system and I'm entitled to it all" voter mentality.
    If Greece defaults on its debt, the consequences will likely have a substantial impact in the rest of the World as well. I'm worried about a possible systemic collapse or market freeze analogous to what could have happened during the financial crisis after Lehman went under. As much as it sucks to admit it, the rest of the World might be better off bailing Greece out yet another time.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Teaser Rate View Post
    If Greece defaults on its debt, the consequences will likely have a substantial impact in the rest of the World as well. I'm worried about a possible systemic collapse or market freeze analogous to what could have happened during the financial crisis after Lehman went under. As much as it sucks to admit it, the rest of the World might be better off bailing Greece out yet another time.
    Nah, Lehman was far bigger in the financial markets than Greece is in the world markets, plus Lehman pretty much escalated over the weekend from "we are ok" to "we have nothing". Greece defaulting has been known for years.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Teaser Rate View Post
    If Greece defaults on its debt, the consequences will likely have a substantial impact in the rest of the World as well. I'm worried about a possible systemic collapse or market freeze analogous to what could have happened during the financial crisis after Lehman went under. As much as it sucks to admit it, the rest of the World might be better off bailing Greece out yet another time.
    Bailing out Lehman or Greece just puts off what is going to happen at some point anyway. Pass it on to the next generation is what we have been doing?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Nah, Lehman was far bigger in the financial markets than Greece is in the world markets, plus Lehman pretty much escalated over the weekend from "we are ok" to "we have nothing". Greece defaulting has been known for years.
    True, but I'm not so confident that we can accurately predict the psychological impact that a First-World nation default will have on the financial markets.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeacePlan View Post
    Bailing out Lehman or Greece just puts off what is going to happen at some point anyway. Pass it on to the next generation is what we have been doing?
    Not necessarily, for instance, a Greek default now might have a worse impact on markets today than it would have 5 years from now.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Teaser Rate View Post
    Not necessarily, for instance, a Greek default now might have a worse impact on markets today than it would have 5 years from now.
    You are wishing and dreaming, but history has shown that fiat money always suffers the same fate = collapse. The entire world is now using fiat and Greece is just one little piece of the system. Please point me to where fiat has been used and does not collapse. You are hoping that this time it is different and I think you are wrong IMO. It is the monetary system that is the problem and Greece the symptom.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by PeacePlan View Post
    You are wishing and dreaming, but history has shown that fiat money always suffers the same fate = collapse. The entire world is now using fiat and Greece is just one little piece of the system. Please point me to where fiat has been used and does not collapse. You are hoping that this time it is different and I think you are wrong IMO. It is the monetary system that is the problem and Greece the symptom.
    I would love to see Greece attempt to borrow in Gold Ounces.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jclay2 View Post
    I would love to see Greece attempt to borrow in Gold Ounces.
    If we used gold based money Greece would never have been in this jam. They are in debt - do you think they would be allowed to borrow money based on gold in the amount they have?

  17. #15
    *Greek Comissioner warns they may leave the Euro*
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110525/...nancial_crisis

    International debt inspectors returned to Athens to continue a crucial review of Greece's progress in meeting the terms of its euro110 billion ($155 billion) bailout package from other European Union countries and the International Monetary Fund.

    They will determine whether the country receives the next euro12 billion installment of rescue loans in June and could indicate whether Greece will need extra help beyond the current rescue loans, such as a second bailout.

    The austerity measures, including a new midterm package of more cuts announced this week and due to run to 2015, have sparked frequent protests, mostly by trade unions. But thousands on Wednesday heeded a call sent out on a social networking site for "outraged" citizens to gather for peaceful protest in the center of Athens and of the second largest city of Thessaloniki.

    More than 15,000 mostly young people gathered in central Athens, and another 5,000 in Thessaloniki. "Thieves, thieves" a few hundred shouted at Parliament in the capital. A line of riot police stood watch, but the atmosphere was mainly peaceful

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  18. #16
    Who are the masses calling thieves? The bankers, politicians or public employees?
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Who are the masses calling thieves? The bankers, politicians or public employees?
    I dont think the masses understand what is going on. They just want more of the same.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by hugolp View Post
    I dont think the masses understand what is going on. They just want more of the same.
    Exactly. The masses are oblivious to what money is, where it comes from, and how it all works against them. All they know is that the government has promised them a free lunch which for a while it appeared like they were getting but now they aren't getting it anymore. And that's what they want, a free lunch.
    Last edited by hazek; 05-26-2011 at 08:09 AM.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    Exactly. The masses are oblivious to what money is, where it comes from, and how it all works against them. All they know is that the government has promised them a free lunch which it for a while it appeared like they were getting but now they aren't getting it anymore. And that's what they want, a free lunch.
    I agree fiat money works for a while and you become addicted to it like a heroine addict Withdrawal will be painful...

  23. #20
    While we here in the USA have our debt ceiling debate, it looks like a Greek default on thier debt is virtually 100% certain.

    http://news.yahoo.com/moodys-cuts-gr...051838800.html

    The announced EU program along with the Institute of International Finance's statement implies that the probability of a distressed exchange, and hence a default, on Greek government bonds is virtually 100 percent," Moody's said in a statement.

    Bank lobby IIF, which led private sector negotiations, aims to attract 90 percent investor participation in the bond exchange plan which comes on top of the EU's new 109 billion euro bailout.

    Moody's cut Greece's rating by three notches to Ca, just one notch above default, to reflect the expected loss implied by the proposed debt exchanges.

    Greece now has the lowest rating of any country in the world covered by Moody's, which, like Fitch last week, said it would review Greece's rating after the debt swap is completed.


    Wonder who will the debt be swaped with?

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  24. #21
    **Update**
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Greece....html?x=0&.v=5

    After living above its means for years until punishing interest rates forced it out of bond markets, Greece is now only kept solvent by a double rescue loan deal worth euro220 billion ($317 billion) from its European partners and the International Monetary Fund.

    In return, the Socialist government has promised to reduce a bloated budget deficit, sell euro50 billion worth of state assets by 2015 and strictly abide by a highly unpopular austerity program that already has eaten deep into wages and pensions.


    Anyone want to buy an island in Greece? they probably have some availeable for sale. In fact that Silcon Valley Billionaire ought to just buy one and start his Libertarian nation there!

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...140840896.html

    Pay Pal founder and early Facebook investor Peter Thiel has given $1.25 million to an initiative to create floating libertarian countries in international waters
    Last edited by Pauls' Revere; 08-22-2011 at 11:55 PM.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    Yeah there's nothing quite like winning an election on some message and then trying to maintain your credibility while you ditch that message and just do what the former government did..

    I walk among people and look at them and all I see is stupid animals getting played left and right. And it sucks so much.
    Are you from Greece?

  26. #23
    *UPDATE* 2/9/2012

    http://finance.yaAusterityhoo.com/ne...194034191.html

    Austerity:

    The deal Greek political leaders struck Thursday includes a 22 percent cut in the monthly minimum wage to €586 ($780), layoffs for 15,000 civil servants and an end to dozens of job guarantee provisions.

    Greece is also close to a vital debt-relief deal with banks, hedge funds, pension funds and other private investors. Under the tentative deal, the private investors would exchange €206 billion in Greek government bonds for €30 billion in cash, plus €70 billion in new bonds. The cash would come from the €130 billion package from Europe and the IMF. The new bonds also would have a lower average interest rate and a longer term of maturity.


    *The Lesson Learned*


    Greece's troubles with debt go back to the 1980s, when successive governments began increasing the size of government and the number of public employees. By 2010, the total had reached 750,000 full-time employees — including 10,000 Greek Orthodox priests and 81,000 military officers — and 150,000 on part-time contracts. That was almost one in five people in the Greek labor force.

    Government jobs became a way of rewarding supporters of Greece's two main political parties. The parties made matters worse by raising the wages of government employees to unsustainable levels. At the same time, the government was lax about collecting taxes. It had to issue ever more debt to cover its spiraling wage bills.

    At first, bond investors lent freely, at interest rates slightly higher than for economic powerhouse Germany. After all, Greece was one of the 17 countries that use the euro. All had promised to observe strict budget and deficit limits. And while on paper the treaty that created the 27-country European Union forbade bailouts, there was a vague sense that Europe could not let a country go bust.

    Then came Oct. 21, 2009. A newly elected government in Athens told its European partners that its finances were far worse than the previous government had disclosed.



    So, the government jobs/employees were supported by the two political parties who raised thier wages to keep themselevs in power. then, falsely reported the financial condition to investors until a new government took over, making the new government look bad. This scenario sounds to familar here in the USA.
    Last edited by Pauls' Revere; 02-10-2012 at 12:22 AM.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  27. #24
    Also in question is whether Greek voters, who will choose a new government in an election tentatively set for April, will put up with eight more years of austerity.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!



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