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Thread: What is with the bitcoin obsession?

  1. #1

    What is with the bitcoin obsession?

    It seems to be taking off like crazy with TIME and Forbes mentions recently. It went from like $1 per to $2.50 per now.

    The problem is that its completely based on faith of the users. Now, this is true of any currency, but unlike gold and silver, here its ridiculously volatile and unstable. The only place it differs from fiat is that the money supply cant surge (or be changed at all for that matter).

    The only positive of it really is that its very secure and anonymous. But compared to the negatives...

    A lot of people are so defensive about it, but I just cant buy into this hype. Part of it is my true feelings. Part is that I dont want to get sucked into it, so I take a harsh view. I honestly cant wait for it to collapse, and honestly, I think it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    When Freedom is Outlawed, only Outlaws will have Freedom.



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  3. #2
    While not backed by a physical asset, it derives its value from not being directly manipulable by the governments and central banks of the world. To do so, they'd probably have to buy up all the BTC that exist. I have a small amount of BTC, but I'm not sure where it will go from here.

  4. #3
    So long as it isn't protected by things like legal tender laws - have at it. I'm not inclined to accept it as payment but if others will - go for it.

  5. #4
    I really don't understand what negatives you mean. It's a decentralized currency technology which provides freedom from government or any other entities control and with enough effort allows for pseudo anonymity.

    So again, what negatives? That it's new?
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  6. #5
    Btw one of the outspoken lead developers of the BitCoin community has been invited by the CIA to give them a presentation on the technology.

    You can read the discussion about it here: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6652.0
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  7. #6
    Please correct me if you've studied this lately, IIRC:
    - it's centrally planned with a built-in rate of inflation
    - seems like the originators can have as many of them as they want
    - no substantial and meaningful intrinsic value to the coin, i.e. gold and silver are scarce, have manufacturing applications, unique physical properties
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    Please correct me if you've studied this lately, IIRC:
    - it's centrally planned with a built-in rate of inflation
    The software was designed by a small group yes, but it's design and functionality is decentralized by nature meaning one central entity cannot change the core design anymore. You'd have to trick the whole network to use your altered client to do so which is impossible because the client is open source and anyone will see your bad intentions and will reject your client.
    - seems like the originators can have as many of them as they want
    They can if they "mine" them or buy them or sell goods and services for them. Just the fact of them being part of the original development hasn't given them any special privileges or rewards besides being the first to start "mining" BitCoins.
    - no substantial and meaningful intrinsic value to the coin, i.e. gold and silver are scarce, have manufacturing applications, unique physical properties
    In my view BitCoins intrinsic value is derived from it's design of the technology. I trust this technology to not screw me out of my purchasing power by staying secure, decentralized and open and therefor I assign it intrinsic value. If at any point signs of vulnerability should appear it will lose this assign intrinsic value in my eyes. Also by design, which as already mentioned cannot be altered anymore, there will ever be only 21million of BitCoins created which also makes them a scarce commodity.


    I have spent a lot of my time researching this technology and I was highly skeptical at first and asked a lot of questions in regards of how the technology prevents various types of attacks possible and how it can maintain all the before mentioned valuable characteristics and I haven't found a hole yet. So right now I trust BitCoins the technology a lot I just don't know whether the price the market has set right now is too high or still low in relation to the size of the network and economy. But If I had a spare $5k laying around being able to forget about them if I lost them all I'd definitely buy as many BitCoins as I could. But because I don't I did a little mining instead and right now I own 0.54BTC
    Last edited by hazek; 04-29-2011 at 12:07 PM.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    I did a little mining instead and right now I own 0.54BTC
    Seems like you use up more $$$ buying the extra electricity your computer needs to do the mining than you gain in BTC.



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  11. #9
    My computer is always on anyways and it's a laptop with a at least 3 year old graphics card. I didn't even intend to make a profit I just wanted to test things and have some BitCoins so I mined as part of a mining pool for a week.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  12. #10
    Btw I frequently post this because I really believe the BitCoin technology is something that could play a huge role in mankind moving away from governments and to anarcho capitalism type societies, so here are all my links I have bookmarked on BitCoins for you to explore and research:


    http://bitcoinwatch.com/ - monitor tool
    http://bitcoinmonitor.com/ - monitor tool
    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page - wiki
    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:Technical - wiki
    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity - wiki
    https://clearcoin.appspot.com/
    http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/ - free bitcoins to play around with
    http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ - BitCoin exchange market summary (if you check out anything, check out this)
    https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/
    http://coinpal.ndrix.com/ - exchange
    http://coincard.ndrix.com/ - exchange
    http://tradebitcoin.com/ - exchange
    https://mtgox.com/ - most popular exchange
    https://btcex.com/site/index/type/value - exchange
    https://www.bitcoinusa.com/ - exchange
    http://www.bitcoinmail.com/
    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units
    http://bitcoin-contact.org/
    http://deepbit.net/ - mining pool
    http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=https:...ts/bitcoin.kml - google maps of all the network nodes across the world online right now
    http://bitcoin.sipa.be/index.html
    Last edited by hazek; 04-29-2011 at 12:33 PM.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  13. #11
    Can you trade them out for something other than dollars? How big is the community selling products and services? If the dollar hyperinflates and my 1 bitcoin is worth $1trillion in dollars, but only 2 in Roast Beef Sandwiches, and I can't find a product or service I like, what do I do?
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    Can you trade them out for something other than dollars? How big is the community selling products and services? If the dollar hyperinflates and my 1 bitcoin is worth $1trillion in dollars, but only 2 in Roast Beef Sandwiches, and I can't find a product or service I like, what do I do?
    Buy 2 roast beef sandwiches They ARE yummy!

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    Can you trade them out for something other than dollars? How big is the community selling products and services? If the dollar hyperinflates and my 1 bitcoin is worth $1trillion in dollars, but only 2 in Roast Beef Sandwiches, and I can't find a product or service I like, what do I do?
    Judge for yourself: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    Well I did look at that before and that's where my questions came from. The link made me not want to do BitCoins. Because I have a concern there would be no products I like when I cash out, and because people are openly selling drugs and porn. I see it as a dangerous thing to even be in support of, much less involved in.
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.

  17. #15
    Drugs and porn a victimless crimes being punished by fictitious laws made up by governments to empose their control over the governed. I'm sorry but I have zero sympathy with such a world view and am not bothered even in the slightest if the biggest drugs lords, weapons dealers or other "illegal" merchants trade their merchandise for BitCoins.

    And I sincerely hope every single government of the world crumbles because of BitCoins.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  18. #16
    I don't mean to prod a sacred cow, I see the intentions and admire the concept. Looks to me like there are safer places and ways to hedge against fiat currency. I'm not calling for 'regulation' of the system or anything. Just saying I'm not hanging around a barbershop when I don't need a haircut. I recognize the probability of winning in federal court if I were to be lumped in with the 'undesirables.' And so I won't personally be an early adopter. You've swayed me from 'debunked' to 'will watch the progress of this' though.
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.



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  20. #17
    That's cool. I have to admit I pegged you wrong from your other #14 post in this thread. I'm glad that you'll keep watching it.

    In the end it doesn't matter what you or I think about it, the market will decide. If it's a useful currency technology people will use it as money and if not they wont. Simple as that.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    That's cool. I have to admit I pegged you wrong from your other #14 post in this thread. I'm glad that you'll keep watching it.

    In the end it doesn't matter what you or I think about it, the market will decide. If it's a useful currency technology people will use it as money and if not they wont. Simple as that.
    Yea verily. You caught me wanting to learn without researching more. But you're so good at this

    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    They can if they "mine" them or buy them or sell goods and services for them. Just the fact of them being part of the original development hasn't given them any special privileges or rewards besides being the first to start "mining" BitCoins.
    Are you sure that the first lump of bitcoins didn't just go straight to the developers? Is there anyone who has ever gotten a bitcoin who did not get it from trading, buying, or mining?

    In my view BitCoins intrinsic value is derived from it's design of the technology. I trust this technology to not screw me out of my purchasing power by staying secure, decentralized and open and therefor I assign it intrinsic value. If at any point signs of vulnerability should appear it will lose this assign intrinsic value in my eyes. Also by design, which as already mentioned cannot be altered anymore, there will ever be only 21million of BitCoins created which also makes them a scarce commodity.
    I'm down with this... the one thing is that I know one person in the world who could personally verify the programming - maybe. I've seen some cryptic use of spaghetti variables in my day, and I don't know jack. How many liberty minded experts are reviewing the code?

    I have spent a lot of my time researching this technology and I was highly skeptical at first and asked a lot of questions
    That's where I'm at right there.

    So right now I trust BitCoins the technology a lot I just don't know whether the price the market has set right now is too high or still low in relation to the size of the network and economy. But If I had a spare $5k laying around being able to forget about them if I lost them all I'd definitely buy as many BitCoins as I could. But because I don't I did a little mining instead and right now I own 0.54BTC
    This seems reasonable, I'd need about $5k to invest $100 though, cause of the other investments on my list. But I can see giving it a go if it's solid, and I can see it's at least close to what is needed - but based on confidence it's a tough sell vs. gold/silver in hand. Trust in peer to peer technology is no problem for me, but risk of the currency itself is.

    In the other thread someone said it would go the way of the Liberty Dollar and eGold(?). Any insight on that?
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.

  22. #19
    I have been promoting bitcoin since almost the beggining when nobody knew about it. I did not go into the mining frenzy because for me bitcoin really is about scaping the government money monopolly (and my home server is an Atom 330, so no much mining possible). The fact that it is anonymous and decentralized are the perfect qualities for this task.

    There has been said a lot of stupid things about Bitcoin. The only valid criticisms (they have been mentioned here) are that the value is volatile and there are not many places that accept bitcoin (yet). But this is normal, because Bitcoin is a young project. As more people start adopting Bitcoin and its economy grows it will become more stable.

    I have to say that I am worried about the recent fame and increase in price (against the dollars). I fear that a lot of people might be speculating and not adopting Bitcoin to commerce, that is what will give Bitcoin stability. Maybe its even possitive if the price collapses a bit, so bitcoin looses its appeal as speculating vehicle. Or maybe the rise in price convinces business owners to accept it. Who knows.

    I encourage you all to give it a try. Its the perfect way to fight the government money monopoly. Its anonymous and de-centralized. We all saw what happened with the liberty dollars because they were not de-centralized. There are business who sell gold and silver for bitcoins, so if you feel you start having too many bitcoins you can change them for gold or silver for long term savings. If you are a business owner consider accepting bitcoins. If you dont own a business suggest some to start accepting bitcoin.
    Last edited by hugolp; 04-29-2011 at 02:58 PM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    I'm down with this... the one thing is that I know one person in the world who could personally verify the programming - maybe. I've seen some cryptic use of spaghetti variables in my day, and I don't know jack. How many liberty minded experts are reviewing the code?
    The bitcoin community is heavily libertarian and anarcho-capitalists.

    This seems reasonable, I'd need about $5k to invest $100 though, cause of the other investments on my list. But I can see giving it a go if it's solid, and I can see it's at least close to what is needed - but based on confidence it's a tough sell vs. gold/silver in hand. Trust in peer to peer technology is no problem for me, but risk of the currency itself is.
    As I said in the previous post you can buy gold and silver with bitcoins, so if you feel you start to have too many bitcoins you can change them to gold and silver for long term savings.

    In the other thread someone said it would go the way of the Liberty Dollar and eGold(?). Any insight on that?
    Being decentralized (and anonymous) is the whole point of Bitcoin. The government could attack Liberty dollar and eGold because there was a central node. They just had to go after that central node and the whole thing went down. Bitcoin is completely decentralized. They could close any node and the system would keep working. The only way for the government to stop it is go full facist and start going home by home closing each node. Even if they tried you can use encription and Tor-like systems to disguise your bitcoin network (there are already people using bitcoin through Tor).
    Last edited by hugolp; 04-29-2011 at 03:08 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by hugolp View Post
    As I said in the previous post you can buy gold and silver with bitcoins, so if you feel you start to have too many bitcoins you can change them to gold and silver for long term savings.
    I don't know how I missed that, but it's huge. I'd be interested in BitCoin's relative long-term stability against its silver and gold markets. If people are selling silver/gold for the same price as it cost me for the BitCoins it takes buy them, it'd be like a no profit, no loss hedge against inflation. With the additional benefit of supporting a viable system, that gets me pretty close. With assurances I'm not operating illegally (as I have no desire to learn to circumvent law or work anonymously), I might be a convert.

    ETA: also, if I'm not mistaken, the transactions can't be refunded. So in theory I would need to profit enough to counteract failure to deliver. Is there any safeguard? Just knowing how many failures to deliver are reported would be something.
    Last edited by nayjevin; 04-29-2011 at 03:31 PM.
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    Are you sure that the first lump of bitcoins didn't just go straight to the developers? Is there anyone who has ever gotten a bitcoin who did not get it from trading, buying, or mining?
    That's the beauty of the technology behind it. There's only one way BitCoins come into existence and it's through that process of "mining". Sure in the beginning when it started the only miners probably were the people who were involved and they mined a nice share of BitCoins. Right now there's 6mio of them already in existence and currently until half of the hard-coded total are created every approx. 10min or so 50 new ones are created. The technology prevents though for someone to just create some out of thin air and use them. They have to come about through that process of "mining".

    I'm down with this... the one thing is that I know one person in the world who could personally verify the programming - maybe. I've seen some cryptic use of spaghetti variables in my day, and I don't know jack. How many liberty minded experts are reviewing the code?
    As people spend more and more of their money on it I'm sure we'll get some large reputable firm to digest the source code but right now it's the community, which is constantly growing, that's in charge of checking the code for malicious intentions.

    In the other thread someone said it would go the way of the Liberty Dollar and eGold(?). Any insight on that?
    It's a decentralized currency, there's no one entity anyone could go after to shut it down, like they did with liberty dollars and eGold.


    The best thing you can do is read the wiki through and through where all of this is explained. Trust me, if anything ever was worth your time, this research is it.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by hugolp View Post
    I have to say that I am worried about the recent fame and increase in price (against the dollars). I fear that a lot of people might be speculating and not adopting Bitcoin to commerce, that is what will give Bitcoin stability. Maybe its even positive if the price collapses a bit, so bitcoin looses its appeal as speculating vehicle. Or maybe the rise in price convinces business owners to accept it. Who knows.
    I'm not worried about this issue at all. Even if people trade BitCoins as only a collectible item entirely, if the technology can maintain it's limited supply rules people should always value them. Then if the technology can also maintain a few other handy properties such as easy transfer, possibility for pseudo anonymity and security the market will pick them up as a means of facilitating trade.

    I imagine that's how gold became money originally. First some people found it and thought it looked pretty and used it for decorative purposes or w/e and because it was limited in supply people who wanted it but couldn't find any were willing to trade other goods and services for it and eventually it got a market and a price.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  27. #24
    I will do much reading before posting again, but I'll say this probably puts me out of the market:

    The bitcoin community uses a few tools to help protect their privacy, and thus identity. The first and most important is a Secure Computer.

    Before proceeding please make sure you have completed the Securing Your Computer guide, this guide assumes that your computer is secure both physically and in software.
    I doubt it is, but how would I know?
    Last edited by nayjevin; 04-29-2011 at 04:00 PM.
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    I don't know how I missed that, but it's huge. I'd be interested in BitCoin's relative long-term stability against its silver and gold markets. If people are selling silver/gold for the same price as it cost me for the BitCoins it takes buy them, it'd be like a no profit, no loss hedge against inflation. With the additional benefit of supporting a viable system, that gets me pretty close. With assurances I'm not operating illegally (as I have no desire to learn to circumvent law or work anonymously), I might be a convert.

    ETA: also, if I'm not mistaken, the transactions can't be refunded. So in theory I would need to profit enough to counteract failure to deliver. Is there any safeguard? Just knowing how many failures to deliver are reported would be something.
    The transactions can not be refunded as you said. Once you send money to someone its his/her money. There is no way to complain or undo the transaction. It has to be this way to be decentralized and anonymous. Think of it like cash. Once you give it to someone its not posible to get it back.

    There are people working in a system of reputation for the bitcoin economy, like a web where merchats are rated so you can check if the merchant you are dealing with has a good reputation (something similar to ebay ratings).

    It would be a real free market!

    I'm not worried about this issue at all. Even if people trade BitCoins as only a collectible item entirely, if the technology can maintain it's limited supply rules people should always value them. Then if the technology can also maintain a few other handy properties such as easy transfer, possibility for pseudo anonymity and security the market will pick them up as a means of facilitating trade.
    Im not complaining, Im just worried because if there is not real substance behind Bitcoin (and by real substance I mean real commerce) it can get very volatile since expectations can change quickly. I hope that the Bitcoin economy starts growing with more merchants accepting it.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    I will do much reading before posting again, but I'll say this probably puts me out of the market:
    Yep, your digital wallet is just a file on your computer. Same as paper money in your pocket. If you don't secure it at all times, someone can steal it! But I have no doubt services will be provided to secure your wallets. Digital safes of sorts such as mybitcoin.com or newly started www.instawallet.org
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by hugolp View Post
    I'm not complaining, I'm just worried because if there is not real substance behind Bitcoin (and by real substance I mean real commerce) it can get very volatile since expectations can change quickly. I hope that the Bitcoin economy starts growing with more merchants accepting it.
    I didn't think you were complaining. I understand your concern. I just wanted to chime in my view on it.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by hugolp View Post
    There are people working in a system of reputation for the bitcoin economy, like a web where merchats are rated so you can check if the merchant you are dealing with has a good reputation (something similar to ebay ratings).
    But then there's no anonymity for sellers, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    such as mybitcoin.com or newly started www.instawallet.org
    hm very cool. Thanks for the responses.
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.

  33. #29
    Sure thing. All I want is to get the word out, what people do with the knowledge once they learn about BitCoins is up to them
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    I have spent a lot of my time researching this technology and I was highly skeptical at first and asked a lot of questions in regards of how the technology prevents various types of attacks possible and how it can maintain all the before mentioned valuable characteristics and I haven't found a hole yet. So right now I trust BitCoins the technology a lot I just don't know whether the price the market has set right now is too high or still low in relation to the size of the network and economy. But If I had a spare $5k laying around being able to forget about them if I lost them all I'd definitely buy as many BitCoins as I could. But because I don't I did a little mining instead and right now I own 0.54BTC
    I understand the technology and have no qualms with that. I just dont trust it for other reasons related to it not being like gold and silver really. A few years of faith is nothing against millennia. But hey were all allowed our opinions and if you like bitcoins, thats fine. I just dont trust them and I dont think I ever will. The only value I see in them is anonymity.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    When Freedom is Outlawed, only Outlaws will have Freedom.

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