Priests and Collectivism

[Mr. Perfidy]

This hit me last night, thinking about the Cops vs Collectivism thread on here, and how we are quick to hate on a cop and how the consensus is basically that the police surrender their individual humanity by voluntarily joining a cult of aggressive force. Those are my feelings, but, I wonder who extends this idea to the Priests?

Everything that you say about the cops, regarding their voluntary subordination to the occupying authority, is true of priests. A great many are "good people" in that they use their influence to help where they can, but, I believe this to be as lame a cop out as the "good policeman" masturbation.

A popular argument against the police is when people say something like,
"what kind of person wants to get paid to...(be an $#@!)?"

Well, what kind of person grows up wanting to turn people's surrender and belief into their house and car and retirement and kids' college?
$#@! that guy.

[RonPaulMania]

Threads like this make me realize all the more why I come here for information only and not some pop psychology by someone who has never studied logic but believes they are logical.

A cheap swipe at priests is one more reason why libertarian collectivism is a reality.

So many here bash "religion" on here like it's going out of style and all of the cries against collectivism go silent, but say that one race commits crime against another more frequently and the collectivist cries howl in the night.

Without realizing it so many of you are the worst form of collectivists: a Godless, immoral collection of libertines that only select what the state of the political correctness tells us is wrong and those people who have problems against PC world are "collectivists".

You'll wonder why this movement will go nowhere and never will be after the anti-God left has taken over the schools, the political system, and while thinking you are so against those people who mostly go big government you have more in league with them than any real basis of American society based on morals and decency.

And yes, I'm a collectivist because it's called logic; I group things in the mind like society, justice, et al.. I can even go further and combine ideas like justice to society, and what is just for the collective. Instead you pretend there is no such thing as the collective and hypocritically attack any institution (which is collective BTW) and my bet is you have a hard time accepting objective morality as well.

Quite the conundrum for the illogical minds on here.

[Ender]

Pretty ridiculous thread.

First of all, religion is a CHOICE; being hassled by overlords is not.

Second, most clergy sacrifice a great deal for the good of their flock; many have only the bare essentials because they believe in what they are doing.

Collectivism as a personal choice is not the same as forced "collectivism". One is a Zion-like community- the other is communism.

[acptulsa]

I think the Middle Ages was warning enough against the evils of compulsary religion. Yes, the Moral Majorities do pop up over time, trying to overlegislate morality (and generally being embraced by the very party that pays lip service to Constitutionalism). But they never seem to put it over, do they?

I think we have enemies enough in the people who took the republic out of the Republican Convention. I don't expect us to get distracted from that clear and present enemy to some silly non-enemy like some medieval priest.

[Mr. Perfidy]

So many here bash "religion" on here like it's going out of style and all of the cries against collectivism go silent, but say that one race commits crime against another more frequently and the collectivist cries howl in the night.

Yeah I agree that the libel "collectivist" is typically used in a collectivist fashion to deflect from images and reputations that Libertarians are trying to de-emphasize and discard.

I also believe though that what we call religion in america is shameless profiteering on the ignorance and insecurity of weak minds.

[Mr. Perfidy]

anyway my point in making the thread is that one collectivist group, the police, are generally regarded as appropriate to treat as a collective menace, while another group, swallowing perhaps more resources, is not ok to treat as such, even though they are propped up by code-enforcements, tax codes, and political connections.

[acptulsa]

I also believe though that what we call religion in america is shameless profiteering on the ignorance and insecurity of weak minds.

I believe that about what we call backwater broadcast religious televangelism. And some others, too. But that's the only apt description of religion in America? Really? None of us could possibly know of a church where people willingly congregate, contribute, and operate a sanctuary and a bunch of chartiable work in a neighborhood? And/or, that fits your description?

[Mr. Perfidy]

I believe that about what we call backwater broadcast religious televangelism. And some others, too. But that's the only apt description of religion in America? Really? None of us could possibly know of a church where people willingly congregate, contribute, and operate a sanctuary and a bunch of chartiable work in a neighborhood? And/or, that fits your description?

nah I don't really think those kinds of institutions exist in america anymore. Maybe in small and secret circles, but if you have a church, at least in my county, there seems to be some kind of legislation that demands it have a US Flag and a God Bless America message. $#@! all those people.

[Philhelm]

The police knock down people's doors and hold them at gunpoint for victimless "crimes" as a matter of standard operating procedure. I don't see priests doing this. At worst, you could argue that some of them take advantage of people who voluntarily give them money in good faith. If I don't want to be victimized by a priest, I can just simply not have any contact with them. Not so for the police, especially since I'm at risk even if I have commited no crime (Oops, wrong address! Sorry 'bout your dog.).

[Philhelm]

$#@! all those people.

...who we want to convert to our political side.

[Mr. Perfidy]

doesn't "converting" people who kneel to coercion mean teaching them to not do that?

I am perhaps alone in the Liberty community in not giving a $#@! about the christian, conservative idea of american liberty- the people who maintain these hopes are a very small and insignificant percent of the population compared to the other classes and cultures in my legislative districts.

[erowe1]

Well, what kind of person grows up wanting to turn people's surrender and belief into their house and car and retirement and kids' college?

Priests don't do that. They take vows of celibacy and often vows of poverty as well.

[acptulsa]

doesn't "converting" people who kneel to coercion mean teaching them to not do that?

I am perhaps alone in the Liberty community in not giving a $#@! about the christian, conservative idea of american liberty- the people who maintain these hopes are a very small and insignificant percent of the population compared to the other classes and cultures in my legislative districts.

In other words, you convict and condemn with the broad mallet of a collectivist. But we knew that already.

Convicted when your neighbors and associates are convicted. Guilt by association. Got it. Don't want it, but got it.

[Mr. Perfidy]

In other words, you convict and condemn with the broad mallet of a collectivist. But we knew that already.

Convicted when your neighbors and associates are convicted. Guilt by association. Got it. Don't want it, but got it.

was this your opinion in the thread regarding the collectivist treatment of the police? Do you really like, not know what I am saying here?

[Mr. Perfidy]

But like the Police, I see the motivation of the man that becomes a priest to be coercive in the sense that it necessarily involves deception and fraud to win and allocate resources

[AGRP]

Threads like this make me realize all the more why I come here for information only and not some pop psychology by someone who has never studied logic but believes they are logical.

A cheap swipe at priests is one more reason why libertarian collectivism is a reality.

So many here bash "religion" on here like it's going out of style and all of the cries against collectivism go silent, but say that one race commits crime against another more frequently and the collectivist cries howl in the night.

Without realizing it so many of you are the worst form of collectivists: a Godless, immoral collection of libertines that only select what the state of the political correctness tells us is wrong and those people who have problems against PC world are "collectivists".

You'll wonder why this movement will go nowhere and never will be after the anti-God left has taken over the schools, the political system, and while thinking you are so against those people who mostly go big government you have more in league with them than any real basis of American society based on morals and decency.

And yes, I'm a collectivist because it's called logic; I group things in the mind like society, justice, et al.. I can even go further and combine ideas like justice to society, and what is just for the collective. Instead you pretend there is no such thing as the collective and hypocritically attack any institution (which is collective BTW) and my bet is you have a hard time accepting objective morality as well.

Quite the conundrum for the illogical minds on here.

He has a good point. There are warnings about religion and the church throughout the Bible. In fact they are both looked down upon in the good book. There is nothing wrong with congregating, but you need to remember that is not what Christianity is about. Its not about going to church and being a good sheep.

[acptulsa]

was this your opinion in the thread regarding the collectivist treatment of the police? Do you really like, not know what I am saying here?

I have met helpful cops. And I know a couple of honest lawyers, too. And as far as I'm concerned, this is more than just opinion. I'd swear by them all.

I'm not speaking of the majority. I'm speaking of individuals who ought to be celebrated rather than ignored.

We aren't here to condemn groups as groups. We're here to beat down federal overcentralization and get as many aspects of our lives controlled from as locally as possible. Most of it from the specific locale of our own minds and free wills. And giving individual credit where due.

[PaulConventionWV]

This hit me last night, thinking about the Cops vs Collectivism thread on here, and how we are quick to hate on a cop and how the consensus is basically that the police surrender their individual humanity by voluntarily joining a cult of aggressive force. Those are my feelings, but, I wonder who extends this idea to the Priests?

Everything that you say about the cops, regarding their voluntary subordination to the occupying authority, is true of priests. A great many are "good people" in that they use their influence to help where they can, but, I believe this to be as lame a cop out as the "good policeman" masturbation.

A popular argument against the police is when people say something like,
"what kind of person wants to get paid to...(be an $#@!)?"

Well, what kind of person grows up wanting to turn people's surrender and belief into their house and car and retirement and kids' college?
$#@! that guy.

Right, because priests go around killing people's dogs all the time.

Dude, you cannot be serious. Unlike the police, priests are a legitimate market function. Believe it or not, people WANT to hear from someone who's studied the word of God and relate their findings to them. Not to mention that churches offer more than just preaching. They offer getaways, Sunday school to occupy the kids, and oh, guess what, they only preach to people who WANT to be preached to. Nobody's forcing you to pay for that guy's house and life. If you don't want to pay for it, DON'T GO TO CHURCH!

Police, unlike priests, are power-hungry animals who beat, maim and steal from citizens simply because they have the state's authority to do so. Priests do not do that. They take only what people are willing to give. The Catholic Church is a whole different kind of sneaky because they, in the past, were actually a part of the state in Europe, so that led to a whole bunch of comorbidization with the state's theft habits. In this society, however, all religions are voluntary, being beaten and arrested by the police is not.

That's why they're not the same thing, and the fact that you didn't already know this means you are a very, very, very, VERY stupid person. I'm sorry, but this is the first time I've actually felt justified in calling someone stupid because, in this case, it is true. How can you call yourself a liberty activist when you hate voluntary organizations for being exactly like the police when, in fact, they are almost the complete opposite? Priests don't get paid with taxpayer money. Priests normally aren't $#@!s to their congregations, unless, of course, their congregation happens to be into that kind of thing.

The point is, don't make an ass out of yourself by comparing priests to police. If you are really that stupid, try to hide it.

[Mr. Perfidy]

Right, because priests go around killing people's dogs all the time.

see now you are talking about cops like they all murder dogs, and priests like none do...

Dude, you cannot be serious. Unlike the police, priests are a legitimate market function.

I don't think that any market function is legitimate, because the dollar is fraud, and therefore all pursuit of it is really surrender of your human behavior to the needs of the fraudulent financial system and its profiteers. So $#@! market function.

Believe it or not, people WANT to hear from someone who's studied the word of God and relate their findings to them. Not to mention that churches offer more than just preaching. They offer getaways, Sunday school to occupy the kids, and oh, guess what, they only preach to people who WANT to be preached to. Nobody's forcing you to pay for that guy's house and life. If you don't want to pay for it, DON'T GO TO CHURCH!

another silly and childish understanding of Voluntary and Will and society and coercion. Most christians and church people that I talk to are roped into it with emotional violence and mama-said bull$#@! obligatory pressure.

Police, unlike priests, are power-hungry animals who beat, maim and steal from citizens simply because they have the state's authority to do so. Priests do not do that. They take only what people are willing to give.

lol seriously? You really need to investigate, whence comes want?

The point is, don't make an ass out of yourself by comparing priests to police. If you are really that stupid, try to hide it

I am actually comparing Liberty people's treatment of priests vs police as collectivist groups

[PaulConventionWV]

anyway my point in making the thread is that one collectivist group, the police, are generally regarded as appropriate to treat as a collective menace, while another group, swallowing perhaps more resources, is not ok to treat as such, even though they are propped up by code-enforcements, tax codes, and political connections.

They're not "swallowing resources". People are spending money there because they want to.

Also, what code-enforcements do they get propped up by? Churches are a legitimate market function that exist because there is a demand for it. Tax breaks are good, too. I don't blame the church for getting tax breaks. Good for them for geting stolen from less than we do. I guess now you're going to advocate for a more "fair" tax system in which we all get stolen from equally, huh?

What political connections are you even talking about? The comparison was absurd to begin with, but now you're saying things you can't even back up.

What's more, I should hasten to point out that priests often take great pains to avoid profiting from their affiliation with their church. What other business do you know that behaves in that manner? What other government do you know that behaves in that manner because they simply want to do what's right for the people?

[Mr. Perfidy]

They're not "swallowing resources". People are spending money there because they want to.

Ridiculous. Why does every Liberty person stop asking questions and investigating coercion the second someone uses the word "want?"

Also, what code-enforcements do they get propped up by?

competing groups can't host bingo and have fairs

Churches are a legitimate market function that exist because there is a demand for it. Tax breaks are good, too. I don't blame the church for getting tax breaks. Good for them for geting stolen from less than we do. I guess now you're going to advocate for a more "fair" tax system in which we all get stolen from equally, huh?

I will point out that if I had money and was dishonest, a good way to use it to extend my influence and connect its value to real social power would be to bury it in Church coffers. It creates protected spheres for the propertied classes.

[PaulConventionWV]

nah I don't really think those kinds of institutions exist in america anymore. Maybe in small and secret circles, but if you have a church, at least in my county, there seems to be some kind of legislation that demands it have a US Flag and a God Bless America message. $#@! all those people.

So now you're criticizing the church because the government is regulating them? You must be a terribly confused person. I do not want to know what it's like to live in your world.

That's like criticizing my small business because it's getting taxed to death.

[Mr. Perfidy]

only if your small business enjoyed arbitrary tax-free status and a host of social privileges that gave it unfair advantages to regulate and maintain culture

[PaulConventionWV]

He has a good point. There are warnings about religion and the church throughout the Bible. In fact they are both looked down upon in the good book. There is nothing wrong with congregating, but you need to remember that is not what Christianity is about. Its not about going to church and being a good sheep.

I agree with you, but even granted that, he still doesn't have a good point. At all.

In fact, he's so far off base that it's nearly impossible to be more wrong and more hypocritical than he is at the same time.

[Mr. Perfidy]

So it is not relevant to human freedom and constitutional government of a voluntary citizenry that if I put a cross out front, then my corporation can gamble in town, and without it, I cannot? No one gives a $#@! about the bible around here, but a lot of people love each other and want to have fun. The priests lobby to make this impossible. The people support them because of their ludicrous authoritarian loyalties to frozen forms of thought

[AGRP]

So now you're criticizing the church because the government is regulating them? You must be a terribly confused person. I do not want to know what it's like to live in your world.

That's like criticizing my small business because it's getting taxed to death.

You do realize there are strings attached to the tax free status right? Would Christ choose to congregate in organized "churches" which are clearly regulated by corrupt men or in a private open field where there are no such regulations? The problem is that there is a fallacy in many Christians minds that the "Church" equals Christianity. Does that same belief not condemn a Christian who follows the word the best they can and not go to church, yet praise and hold elaborate services for members of the military who murder their fellow man?

[PaulConventionWV]

see now you are talking about cops like they all murder dogs, and priests like none do...

Ok, hit me. What priests do you know that walk onto someone's property, kill their dog, then raid their homes and do it all without consequence? I'm waiting.

I don't think that any market function is legitimate, because the dollar is fraud, and therefore all pursuit of it is really surrender of your human behavior to the needs of the fraudulent financial system and its profiteers. So $#@! market function.

So, in other words, you're a communist? If you don't believe there's a market, then what do you believe? Do you think someone should be able to willingly pay for something they want? If there is a market for cheeseburgers, and selling cheeseburgers is a legitimate market function, then so is being a priest. The dollar being fraud notwithstanding, most of this stuff would exist with or without the dollar because people are willing to pay gold, silver, tungsten, paper, whatever to get what they want. The dollar just happens to be the only legal form of currency, and that's nobody's fault but the government. Blaming it on people who try to get the dollar is just the same as the guy in medieval times selling a cow for a few pieces of gold. It doesn't matter what kind of money you use, people want to pay for stuff like that.

another silly and childish understanding of Voluntary and Will and society and coercion. Most christians and church people that I talk to are roped into it with emotional violence and mama-said bull$#@! obligatory pressure.

Oh, please, you buy into that "emotional violence" thing? That's the same argument the supreme court used to take away the speech rights of kids in public schools. You're no liberty activist if you hold that point of view. A christian is just as roped into it as you are roped into buying a car. If you feel like you need a car, then you will be sold on one by some random salesman who thinks you should get his car instead of someone else's. Who are you to decide what someone can buy without being "roped in". Since when is somebody violently coerced into believing something just because YOU think that their belief is not legitimate. That is hypocrisy, my friend, thinking you are the only one who has legitimate beliefs that aren't coerced.

lol seriously? You really need to investigate, whence comes want?

Uh, yeah, I really believe that. Tell me how priests steal without the other person's consent. If I'm wrong, prove it.

I am actually comparing Liberty people's treatment of priests vs police as collectivist groups

Why shouldn't liberty-minded people treat them differently? They are VERY different, as I have just demonstrated to you.

[DeMintConservative]

Because priests aren't agents of the state.

Collectivism by itself isn't bad. People cooperate, it's part of the human nature. There's nothing wrong with having a family. Playing basketball in a team.

The problem is the coercive power of the state.

Is there any problem with private security companies? Nope. You need security to enforce propriety rights.

I'm always amused by the amount of anti-corporations, anti-religion - in the sense of being opposed to basic principles of libertarianism/small-government conservativsm/minarchism/ancap/whatever you call it - .speech on these boards. It's a very good indicator that Ron Paul supporters aren't nearly as ideologically cohesive and enlightened as they're pictured to be.

[Mr. Perfidy]

So, in other words, you're a communist? If you don't believe there's a market, then what do you believe? Do you think someone should be able to willingly pay for something they want?

yes with the qualifer that no person can own and accept payment for things that they cannot claim to be the product of their own work- for example, a river.

If there is a market for cheeseburgers, and selling cheeseburgers is a legitimate market function,

see this is childish and simplistic thinking- in order for a cheeseburger to get to my plate first there has to be land-ownership that fences off a lot for cattle feeding and slaughter, there has to be transportation and refrigeration networks, railroads, power companies, etc. Our environment is saturated with govt coercion in all industries, so, this cheeseburger that you are acting like is some island of human freedom is really a consequence of research cartels, govt subsidies, and land-holding firms. $#@! all those things.

Oh, please, you buy into that "emotional violence" thing?

haha you dont have a woman? a mother? any elders at all?

That's the same argument the supreme court used to take away the speech rights of kids in public schools. You're no liberty activist if you hold that point of view. A christian is just as roped into it as you are roped into buying a car. If you feel like you need a car, then you will be sold on one by some random salesman who thinks you should get his car instead of someone else's. Who are you to decide what someone can buy without being "roped in". Since when is somebody violently coerced into believing something just because YOU think that their belief is not legitimate. That is hypocrisy, my friend, thinking you are the only one who has legitimate beliefs that aren't coerced.

well, as religious belief necessarily contradicts sensory perception, adherence to it must neceesarily involve some form of deception and surrender to authority in place of investigation with the senses.

Uh, yeah, I really believe that. Tell me how priests steal without the other person's consent. If I'm wrong, prove it.

they monopolize or otherwise cartelize a social position of moral authority

[DeMintConservative]

So it is not relevant to human freedom and constitutional government of a voluntary citizenry that if I put a cross out front, then my corporation can gamble in town, and without it, I cannot? No one gives a $#@! about the bible around here, but a lot of people love each other and want to have fun. The priests lobby to make this impossible. The people support them because of their ludicrous authoritarian loyalties to frozen forms of thought

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but special privileges shouldn't exist to any type of organization. But that's true for churches or Indian tribes or blacks or green companies or unionized workers or poor people or whatever special interest group you want to talk about. It doesnt' make churches especially worse than anyone else. The problem is the fact the government can give those privileges; humans being humans, of course people, individually or collectively, are going to seek them.

If no one gives a $#@! about the bible, then what's exactly the problem anyway?