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Thread: Ayn Rand calls Libertarians "monstrous, disgusting bunch of people"

  1. #1

    Ayn Rand calls Libertarians "monstrous, disgusting bunch of people"

    http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServ...s_libertarians

    Q: What do you think of the Libertarian movement? [FHF: “The Moratorium on Brains,” 1971]

    AR: All kinds of people today call themselves “libertarians,” especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies, except that they’re anarchists instead of collectivists. But of course, anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet they want to combine capitalism and anarchism. That is worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but don’t want to preach collectivism, because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. The anarchist is the scum of the intellectual world of the left, which has given them up. So the right picks up another leftist discard. That’s the Libertarian movement.

    Q: What do you think of the Libertarian Party? [FHF: “A Nation’s Unity,” 1972]

    AR: I’d rather vote for Bob Hope, the Marx Brothers, or Jerry Lewis. I don’t think they’re as funny as Professor Hospers and the Libertarian Party. If, at a time like this, John Hospers takes ten votes away from Nixon (which I doubt he’ll do), it would be a moral crime. I don’t care about Nixon, and I care even less about Hospers. But this is no time to engage in publicity seeking, which all these crank political parties are doing. If you want to spread your ideas, do it through education. But don’t run for President—or even dogcatcher—if you’re going to help McGovern.

    Q: What is your position on the Libertarian Party? [FHF: “Censorship: Local and Express,” 1973]

    AR: I don’t want to waste too much time on it. It’s a cheap attempt at publicity, which Libertarians won’t get. Today’s events, particularly Watergate, should teach anyone with amateur political notions that they cannot rush into politics in order to get publicity. The issue is so serious today, that to form a new party based in part on half-baked ideas, and in part on borrowed ideas—I won’t say from whom—is irresponsible, and in today’s context, nearly immoral.

    Q: Libertarians advocate the politics you advocate. So why are you opposed to the Libertarian Party? [FHF: “Egalitarianism and Inflation,” 1974]

    AR:They are not defenders of capitalism. They’re a group of publicity seekers who rush into politics prematurely, because they allegedly want to educate people through a political campaign, which can’t be done. Further, their leadership consists of men of every of persuasion, from religious conservatives to anarchists. Moreover, most of them are my enemies: they spend their time denouncing me, while plagiarizing my ideas. Now, I think it’s a bad beginning for an allegedly pro-capitalist party to start by stealing ideas.

    Q: Have you ever heard of [Libertarian presidential candidate] Roger MacBride? [FHF: “?” 1976]

    AR: My answer should be, “I haven’t.” There’s nothing to hear. I have been maintaining in everything I have said and written, that the trouble in the world today is philosophical; that only the right philosophy can save us. Now here is a party that plagiarizes some of my ideas, mixes it with the exact opposite—with religionists, anarchists, and just about every intellectual misfit and scum they can find—and they call themselves Libertarians, and run for office. I dislike Reagan and Carter; I’m not too enthusiastic about the other candidates. But the worst of them are giants compared to anybody who would attempt something as un-philosophical, low, and pragmatic as the Libertarian Party. It is the last insult to ideas and philosophical consistency.

    Q: Do you think Libertarians communicate the ideas of freedom and capitalism effectively? [Q&A following LP’s “Objective Communication,” Lecture 1, 1980]

    AR: I don’t think plagiarists are effective. I’ve read nothing by a Libertarian (when I read them, in the early years) that wasn’t my ideas badly mishandled—i.e., had the teeth pulled out of them—with no credit given. I didn’t know whether I should be glad that no credit was given, or disgusted. I felt both. They are perhaps the worst political group today, because they can do the most harm to capitalism, by making it disreputable.

    Q: Why don’t you approve of the Libertarians, thousands of whom are loyal readers of your works? [FHF: “The Age of Mediocrity,” 1981]

    AR: Because Libertarians are a monstrous, disgusting bunch of people: they plagiarize my ideas when that fits their purpose, and they denounce me in a more vicious manner than any communist publication, when that fits their purpose. They are lower than any pragmatists, and what they hold against Objectivism is morality. They’d like to have an amoral political program.

    Q: The Libertarians are providing intermediate steps toward your goals. Why don’t you support them? [Ibid., 1981]

    AR: Please don’t tell me they’re pursuing my goals. I have not asked for, nor do I accept, the help of intellectual cranks. I want philosophically educated people: those who understand ideas, care about ideas, and spread the right ideas. That’s how my philosophy will spread, just as philosophy has throughout all history: by means of people who understand and teach it to others. Further, it should be clear that I do not endorse the filthy slogan, “The end justifies the means.” That was originated by the Jesuits, and accepted enthusiastically by Communists and Nazis. The end does not justify the means; you cannot achieve anything good by evil means. Finally, the Libertarians aren’t worthy of being the means to any end, let alone the end of spreading Objectivism.



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  3. #2
    Yeah. Ron has said she didn't think much of libertarians. He found her very intelligent and said he took her newsletter as long as she printed it, in order to hone his own arguments and wit, and to make sure he still had the better argument to his own mind. He wasn't an objectivist, and isn't. He believes in charity.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  4. #3
    Ayn Rand on "Libertarians"


    For the record, I shall repeat what I have said many times before: I do not join or endorse any political group or movement. More specifically, I disapprove of, disagree with, and have no connection with, the latest aberration of some conservatives, the so-called “hippies of the right,” who attempt to snare the younger or more careless ones of my readers by claiming simultanteously to be followers of my philosophy and advocates of anarchism. Anyone offering such a combination confesses his inability to understand either. Anarchism is the most irrational, anti-intellectual notion ever spun by the concrete-bound, context-dropping, whim-worshiping fringe of the collectivist movement, where it properly belongs.

    - “Brief Summary,” The Objectivist, Sept. 1971, pg 1


    Above all, do not join the wrong ideological groups or movements, in order to “do something.” By “ideological” (in this context), I mean groups or movements proclaiming some vaguely generalized, undefined (and, usually, contradictory) political goals. (E.g., the Conservative Party, which subordinates reason to faith, and substitutes theocracy for capitalism; or the “libertarian” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.) To join such groups means to reverse the philosophical hierarchy and to sell out fundamental principles for the sake of some superficial political action which is bound to fail. It means that you help the defeat of your ideas and the victory of your enemies. (For a discussion of the reasons, see “The Anatomy of Compromise” in my book Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.)

    - “What Can One Do?” Philosophy: Who Needs It, pg 202


    The "libertarians" . . . plagiarize Ayn Rand’s principle that no man may initiate the use of physical force, and treat it as a mystically revealed, out-of-context absolute . . . .

    In the philosophical battle for a free society, the one crucial connection to be upheld is that between capitalism and reason. The religious conservatives are seeking to tie capitalism to mysticism; the “libertarians” are tying capitalism to the whim-worshipping subjectivism and chaos of anarchy. To cooperate with either group is to betray capitalism, reason, and one’s own future.

    - Harry Binswanger “Q & A Department: Anarchism,” The Objectivist Forum, Aug. 1981, pg 12
    Last edited by FrankRep; 04-17-2011 at 12:01 PM.
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  5. #4
    Lots of claims, no substance. Ayn Rand might have been dealing with a different "brand" of anarchism or Libertarian Party in the 50s thru 70s, so maybe that could explain her disgust.

  6. #5
    At the time and age the Libertarian party was still young and very new to the scene, and maybe she had a bad impression. Maybe today she would change her mind today, but nothing is sure. I'm not sure if her idea that libertarians are anarchists was correct for the time, but it certainly isn't correct today.

  7. #6
    Rand wanted a giant military though. You need a big Federal government for that.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Agorism View Post
    Rand wanted a giant military though. You need a big Federal government for that.
    It's foolish to think a country can survive without a military.
    Last edited by FrankRep; 04-17-2011 at 12:16 PM.
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    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Agorism View Post
    Rand wanted a giant military though.
    So does Ron Paul.



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  11. #9

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by freshjiva View Post
    So does Ron Paul.
    Ron wants a giant defense not military.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by R3volutionJedi View Post
    Ron wants a giant defense not military.
    Ron Paul supports the military. Ron Paul is against the abuse of military power.
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    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

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  14. #12
    Politicians can't call for outright defunding it, but they can support making it smaller and getting out of conflicts.

    Obama-Bush can't enforce all their laws and agendas without a large standing army to overpower the states. Secession is now impossible under such circumstances when it was previously somewhat possible.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by R3volutionJedi View Post
    Ron wants a giant defense not military.
    so does Rand. Rand has never ever talked about wanting a "giant military" like the other neocons, other than saying defense is the most important function of gov't (which Ron also believes)

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    Yeah. Ron has said she didn't think much of libertarians. He found her very intelligent and said he took her newsletter as long as she printed it, in order to hone his own arguments and wit, and to make sure he still had the better argument to his own mind. He wasn't an objectivist, and isn't. He believes in charity.
    As if believing in charity disqualifies someone from being an objectivist. It doesn't.

    PLAYBOY: Do you consider wealthy businessmen like the Fords and the Rockefellers immoral because they use their wealth to support charity?

    RAND: No. That is their privilege, if they want to. My views on charity are very simple. I do not consider it a major virtue and, above all, I do not consider it a moral duty. There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by R3volutionJedi View Post
    Ron wants a giant defense not military.
    Complete nonsense. Ron I think wants an appropriate amount of defense and with nuclear weapons at hand, its no where gigantic. Then again whoever said Ron was perfect, but as an anarcho capitalist, i am willing to settle for Ron. Remember the private sector does EVERYTHING better, cheaper, more efficiently than govt even in defense, police and fire fighting.

  18. #16
    A "strong national defense" could mean allowing bearing arms though to defend against the president and could having nothing to do with arming the president with a massive standing army.

    Just saying.

    Just because you favor a strong national defense doesn't mean you support having a military. A president with a large standing army is more like a prison planet than anything to do with defense. Look what happened in Egypt. They got rid of the president and now they just have a large standing army without a president at all so its junta rule. The large standing army takes on a life of its own.
    Last edited by Agorism; 04-17-2011 at 12:54 PM.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Agorism View Post
    A "strong national defense" could mean allowing bearing arms though to defend against the president and could having nothing to do with arming the president with a massive standing army.

    Just saying.
    Your point? That's a general point given in the Declaration of Independence.
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  21. #18
    My point is that just because Paul, or others for that matter, says he favors having a strong national defense does not mean he favors a standing army.

    Having heavily armed state governments and individuals against Washington is a valid form of defense from the real threat (D.C.) More guns for Washington= weakness. Alternative power structures=strength.
    Last edited by Agorism; 04-17-2011 at 12:58 PM.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Agorism View Post
    My point is that just because Paul, or others for that matter, says he favors having a strong national defense does not mean he favors a standing army.
    Well, prove it. Show us where Ron Paul is against a standing army.
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    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    It's foolish to think a country can survive without a military.
    Hey genius since when does not wanting a "giant military" mean no military at all? LMAO! Ron Paul is for a strong national defense.......imperialism is not the same thing as a strong national defense.

  24. #21
    Antiwar Article by Ron Paul

    Paul has spoken out against standing armies before. He favors a strong national defense against D.C. too.

    Policy Is More Important
    Than Personnel

    by Rep. Ron Paul
    President Bush has been under pressure to fire Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, whom many view as the architect of a failed approach in Iraq. Even many ardent war hawks are unhappy with the secretary for not having more troops on the ground in Iraq, and for conducting the war less aggressively than they would like.

    But the issue is not who serves as secretary of defense, the issue is how, when, and why the United States uses military force. It makes no sense simply to replace Mr. Rumsfeld with someone else who holds the same view, namely that it's the job of American soldiers and U.S. taxpayers to police the world. We should be debating the proper foreign policy for our country – utopian nation-building vs. the noninterventionism counseled by our Founding Fathers – rather than which individual is best suited to carry it out.

    I happen to agree with Mr. Rumsfeld on the matter of downsizing the military as a whole and remaking it to reflect modern realities of warfare. A swifter, nimbler military would be better suited to tracking individuals like bin Laden who do not operate under the flag of any particular nation or army. The war in Iraq shows that we're trying to adapt our military to fit our foreign policy, rather than the other way around. For all our high-tech advantages, we are mired in a simmering urban civil war that does not play to the true strengths of our troops.

    The old model of warfare, based on invading and occupying whole nations, is unsustainable. Both financially and in terms of manpower, American simply cannot afford any more Koreas, Vietnams, or Iraqs. Many people in the Pentagon understand that America's armed forces are not trained in occupation, policing, and nation-building. The best way to support the troops is through a sensible foreign policy that does not place them in harm's way unnecessarily or force them into uncomfortable, dangerous roles as occupiers.

    It's interesting to note that our Founders warned against maintaining standing armies at all, both because of the taxes required to do so and the threats to liberty posed by a permanent military.

    Consider the words of James Madison, often considered the father of the Constitution:

    "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defense against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home…"

    Madison continues:

    "Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. … No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."

    In other words, Madison understood that large military forces can become the tools of tyrants, and can bankrupt the nations that support them. Instead of debating who should be secretary of defense, we should be studying the writing of our own Founding Fathers. Perhaps then we will question the wisdom of an open-ended, vague "war on terror" and the realities of trying to remake whole societies in our image.

    -Ron Paul

    Like I said before, a modern politician can't campaign on defunding the military, but he can be against the wars and against more funding and support a general direction of anti-Federalism.
    Last edited by Agorism; 04-17-2011 at 01:04 PM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LiveFree79 View Post
    Hey genius since when does not wanting a "giant military" mean no military at all? LMAO! Ron Paul is for a strong national defense.......imperialism is not the same thing as a strong national defense.
    As I've said before: Ron Paul supports the military. Ron Paul is against the abuse of military power.
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  26. #23
    There was either a Washingtonpost or NYTimes article where Paul was speaking out against standing armies as well but I can't find the interview.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Agorism View Post
    "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defense against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home…"
    Standing Military Force + Overgrown Executive = Danger to Liberty.

    Ron Paul makes an important distinction, thus the plus sign.
    Last edited by FrankRep; 04-17-2011 at 01:12 PM.
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    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.



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  29. #25
    Standing army= danger to liberty.

    D.C. can't enforce these laws without an army and its extensions (IRS, CIA, NSA, DHS, etc.) As long as there is a large standing army, states can't secede or nullify laws either.

    They have to conform hence the states don't really exist other than to serve the master. The Union is not a union but an empire.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    It's foolish to think a country can survive without a military.
    Oh, those foolish founding fathers! How could they have been so naive as to believe they could get along without a standing army.

    "A standing army in the hands of a government placed so independent of the people, may be made a fatal instrument to overturn the public liberties; it may be employed to enforce the collection of the most oppressive taxes, and to carry into execution the most arbitrary measures. An ambitious man who may have the army at his devotion, may step up into the throne, and seize upon absolute power."- Pennsylvania ratifying convention

    "
    They shall have also the power of raising, supporting and establishing a standing army in time of peace in your several towns, and I see not why in your several houses."
    Where lies the security of the people? What assurances have they that either their taxes will not be exacted but in the greatest emergencies, and then sparingly, or that standing armies will be raised and supported for the very plausible purpose only of cantoning them upon their frontiers? There is but one answer to these questions. — They have none.
    The advocates at the present day, for a standing army in the New Congress pretend it is necessary for the respectability of government. I defy them to produce an instance in any country, in the Old or New World, where they have not finally done away the liberties of the people. — Every writer upon government, — Lock, Sidney, Hamden, and a list of other have uniformly asserted, that standing armies are a solecism in any government; that no nation ever supported them, that did not resort to, rely upon, and finally become a prey to them.
    It is universally agreed, that a militia and a standing body of troops never yet flourished in the same soil. Tyrants have uniformly depended upon the latter, at the expense of the former. Experience has taught them, that a standing body of regular forces, where ever they can be completely introduced, are always efficacious in enforcing their edicts, however arbitrary.
    There is no instance of any government being reduced to a confirmed tyranny without military oppression; and the first policy of tyrants has been to annihilate all other means of national activity and defence, and to rely solely upon standing troops.
    It is very true, that the celebrated Mr. Wilson, a member of the Convention, and who we may suppose breathes, in some measure, the spirit of that body, tells you, it [a standing army] is for the purpose of forming cantonments upon your frontiers, and for the dignity and safety of your country, as it respects foreign nations. No man that loves his country could object to their being raised for the first of these causes, but for the last it cannot be necessary. GOD has so separated us by an extensive ocean from the rest of mankind, he hath so liberally endowed us with privileges, and so abundantly taught us to esteem them precious, it would be impossible, while we retain our integrity and advert to first principles, for any nation whatever to subdue us."
    -John Dewitt (from the anti-federalist papers)


    "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -Thomas Jefferson
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  31. #27
    Also contracts are supposed to be two way. Say you have a contract with a person to cut your grass. Each person evaluates whether the contract is being full filled.(constitutional in the case of states vs. Federal.) Is the worker getting paid? Is the guy actually mowing the lawn and doing roughly what was expected? Both parties can call foul and stop participating if the other is not playing fair.

    However, the S.C. now makes one way decision making. They decide everything not the states.

    And the president not only has a MASSIVE standing army and empire, but he also controls the state's National guard so the governors have no real power to rebel.

    All power is one way and Pyramid, and there is no decentralization of power within the Federalist system.
    Last edited by Agorism; 04-17-2011 at 01:18 PM.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by LiveFree79 View Post
    Hey genius since when does not wanting a "giant military" mean no military at all? LMAO! Ron Paul is for a strong national defense.......imperialism is not the same thing as a strong national defense.
    /\
    This

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Agorism View Post
    Also contracts are supposed to be two way. Say you have a contract with a person to cut your grass. Each person evaluates whether the contract is being full filled.(constitutional in the case of states vs. Federal.) Is the worker getting paid? Is the guy actually mowing the lawn and doing roughly what was expected?

    However, the S.C. now makes one way decision making. They decide everything not the states.

    And the president not only has a MASSIVE standing army and empire, but he also controls the state's National guard so the governors have no real power to rebel.

    All power is one way and Pyramid, and there is no decentralization of power within the Federalist system.
    +infinity
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    Yeah. Ron has said she didn't think much of libertarians. He found her very intelligent and said he took her newsletter as long as she printed it, in order to hone his own arguments and wit, and to make sure he still had the better argument to his own mind. He wasn't an objectivist, and isn't. He believes in charity.
    Ayn believed in charity, she did not believe in forced charity, or even more in obligated charity. No, I think the differences in libertarianism and objectivism lie elsewhere

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