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Thread: Is there a way for congress to authorize a no-fly zone without declaring all-out war?

  1. #1

    Is there a way for congress to authorize a no-fly zone without declaring all-out war?

    If not, then there should be. Because if all congress can do is declare war, then the military isn't limited in the tools it can use.

    Anybody know how the constitution and relevant laws come down in this issue?
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka



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  3. #2
    If not, then there should be.
    how? enacting a no-fly zone is an act of war. you're basically asking to go to war without going to war.

  4. #3
    Here let me quote my first post, and maybe bold part of the sentence this time, so you might understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    If not, then there should be. Because if all congress can do is declare war, then the military isn't limited in the tools it can use.

    Anybody know how the constitution and relevant laws come down in this issue?
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  5. #4
    how is it not out of US jurisdiction?

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    Here let me quote my first post, and maybe bold part of the sentence this time, so you might understand.
    ok. i see. you're asking congress not to declare war, but 1/10 of a war. that makes a lot of sense.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by shemdogg View Post
    how is it not out of US jurisdiction?
    Good question, it definitely is out of our jurisdiction. I'm just thinking about what America should do if there were a situation similar to Libya with one of our neighbors, say Cuba or Mexico. If the Cuban people decided to rise up and try to throw out Castro, but Castro was able to hold the rebellion back with helicopters and bombers, wouldn't we want our military to use it's significant air prowess to even the scales?
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    If the Cuban people decided to rise up and try to throw out Castro, but Castro was able to hold the rebellion back with helicopters and bombers, wouldn't we want our military to use it's significant air prowess to even the scales?
    you would if you were a neocon.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by low preference guy View Post
    you would if you were a neocon.
    Not really, Cuba doesn't have any oil or geo-political significance.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    If not, then there should be. Because if all congress can do is declare war, then the military isn't limited in the tools it can use.

    Anybody know how the constitution and relevant laws come down in this issue?
    Yes, they are restricted. Natural Law -> Constitution -> Treatise - > Military Code of Conduct...
    Not to mention chain of command...
    Have you not seen the videos...
    Captain : I have enemy on site. RPG's spotted.
    Command : Permission to engage.
    Captain : Engaging targets. Firing 50 cal.
    ...etc.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    Not really, Cuba doesn't have any oil or geo-political significance.
    Why would we want to get involved?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    Yes, they are restricted. Natural Law -> Constitution -> Treatise - > Military Code of Conduct...
    Not to mention chain of command...
    Have you not seen the videos...
    Captain : I have enemy on site. RPG's spotted.
    Command : Permission to engage.
    Captain : Engaging targets. Firing 50 cal.
    ...etc.
    Yeah, I guess that is the way it works. Once congress declares war, the president and military should be on the same level as to what should be done, due to the treaties and public discourse and what not.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  14. #12
    Con. Pete King says the Pres. has the inherent power to take military action without approval! I just posted something similar along with a clear explanation from the 10th amendment center on the executive branch and war powers:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ry-Action-quot
    Last edited by libertygrl; 03-20-2011 at 03:54 PM. Reason: forgot to add something
    Paranoia is having all of the facts.
    www.classifiedwoman.com

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by libertygrl View Post
    Con. Pete King says the Pres. has the inherent power to take military action without approval! I just posted something similar along with a clear explanation from the 10th amendment center on the executive branch and war powers:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ry-Action-quot
    Hmmm, according to the info you found, congress decides, within the declaration of war, which course of action to take and where the endpoint is. I always thought a declaration of war was just a simple "We declare war against ______"
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  16. #14
    OP, why do you so often side with CIA ops?


    Specifically MI6 in this case.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...l-Intelligence
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    OP, why do you so often side with CIA ops?


    Specifically MI6 in this case.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...l-Intelligence
    Why do you so often side with dictators? (See what I did there?)

    The only people who's side I'm taking are the Libyans, who became rebels after their dictator gunned them down when they were peacefully protesting.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    The only people who's side I'm taking are the Libyans, who became rebels after their dictator gunned them down when they were peacefully protesting.
    do you know for sure that the new government will be better for the people of Libya?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by low preference guy View Post
    do you know for sure that the new government will be better for the people of Libya?
    Please don't derail the thread, but to answer your question: I have no idea, but I hope it will be.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    Please don't derail the thread, but to answer your question: I have no idea, but I hope it will be.
    so you want to gamble with the lives of Libyans using stolen money from Americans. nice.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by low preference guy View Post
    so you want to gamble with the lives of Libyans using stolen money from Americans. nice.
    I've repeatedly said all over this forum that I don't want Americans to be involved in the no-fly zone, you $#@!ing ignorant prick.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    Why do you so often side with dictators? (See what I did there?)

    The only people who's side I'm taking are the Libyans, who became rebels after their dictator gunned them down when they were peacefully protesting.
    The Libyans didn't just BECOME rebels, they were trained by MI6.. PLEASE read that article I posted.. you are making the assumption that they will be better off under our (western) control, because that is clearly the plan here, clearly, you can't deny it. I think they would be better off on their own, and so do most of the Libyans. They would rather have a dictator than be under western control. That is why there are so many god damn dictators over there, because people like you over here support taking control away from them.

    It's time to end this horrible cycle, stop perpetuating it, PLEASE!!
    Last edited by dannno; 03-20-2011 at 04:29 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    I've repeatedly said all over this forum that I don't want Americans to be involved in the no-fly zone, you $#@!ing ignorant prick.
    It doesn't matter whether "Americans" are involved, the interests of the globalists run MI6 and they run our country and they are trying to run Libya.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The Libyans didn't just BECOME rebels, they were trained by MI6.. PLEASE read that article.. you are making the assumption that they will be better off under our (western) control, because that is clearly the plan here, clearly, you can't deny it. I think they would be better off on their own.
    Just because a few British and US intelligence agents were in Libya doesn't mean the ENTIRE rebellion was trained by them. Most of the rebels were trained by the Libyan military, and defected after the protests. Everyone else was trained by those defectors.

    The Coalition forces have explicitly stated that they have no plans to send in ground troops. The rebels have also asked for only a no-fly zone; they want no foreign boots on the ground. So if that holds up, then the ability for the west to control them will be limited to the old school, Hosni Mubarak-style corruption.

    I'm hoping for two things here: One, the new movements in Egypt, Libya, and elsewhere are more keen to improper western influence, and two, that the elites who control the western governments are realizing that they have to be more hands off because the people of the middle east are becoming more aware of the puppet strings. Both of these things are happening, but it could all be for nothing if the protesters become complacent and don't hold their new governments to strict standards.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It doesn't matter whether "Americans" are involved, the interests of the globalists run MI6 and they run our country and they are trying to run Libya.
    Yes it does matter that Americans are involved. So far, Americans have had a larger footprint than any other country in the Middle East. So for the sake of the legitimacy of the no-fly zone, and for the legitimacy of the new movements arising in the middle east, we need to stay out of it.

    I'm not denying that globalists are trying to control the situation, but they're certainly not controlling the situation. The never intended for Ben-Ali or Mubarak to be ousted, and they've been trying to catch up ever since. They're essentially on damage control. That's why I'm cautiously optimistic about these revolutions.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  27. #24
    Back to the original question, no, in 1789 the whole world was a 'no fly zone'. John Quincy Adams warned against wandering around the world looking for monsters to slay, but we seem deaf to the entreaty. But the concept of a war that isn't a war is a pretty new construct. It seems to have been invented for Korea and then found, shall we say, convenient...

    I don't believe the concept of 'a limited conflict' was even in the consciousness. Back when you had to wait until you saw the whites of their eyes before you had much of a chance of hitting them, war couldn't be kept so impersonal.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 03-20-2011 at 04:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    think they would be better off on their own, and so do most of the Libyans. They would rather have a dictator than be under western control. That is why there are so many god damn dictators over there, because people like you over here support taking control away from them.

    It's time to end this horrible cycle, stop perpetuating it, PLEASE!!
    I don't know what your sources are, but everything I've been hearing indicates that the rebels, which have the support of the majority of the Libyan population, have asked for the no-fly zone. So it seems to me that they want neither western-control OR a dictator. They want a no-fly zone to even the playing field so they may overthrow their dictator and form some sort of accountable government.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    I don't know what your sources are, but everything I've been hearing indicates that the rebels, which have the support of the majority of the Libyan population, have asked for the no-fly zone. So it seems to me that they want neither western-control OR a dictator. They want a no-fly zone to even the playing field so they may overthrow their dictator and form some sort of accountable government.
    You are absolutely correct, and it was as you describe it up until yesterday. Today they're like, uh, this is more than we asked for, and we're beginning to wonder if you imperialistic people want a piece of the action when we're done...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    If not, then there should be. Because if all congress can do is declare war, then the military isn't limited in the tools it can use.

    Anybody know how the constitution and relevant laws come down in this issue?
    The military isn't supposed to be limited. If you're limiting the military, then you aren't using it right. The military is a Hell-shattering force of overwhelming destructive capabilities with the sole purpose of breaking an enemy force's capabilities of mounting any sort of threat to the United States (which 9/10 of the time doesn't even exist in the first place, these days). This is why military force should always be a last resort, but if you are to use the military, don't tie their hands. Our problem is that we allow the president to nonchalantly send our military off to war performing roles they aren't meant to play. They're not going over there to give out ice cream and read story books to kids. That's the Orwellian version of a 'humanitarian' war but it never quite goes that way—at least, not after they've counted the bodies.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 03-20-2011 at 05:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    The military isn't supposed to be limited. If you're limiting the military, then you aren't usnig it right.
    I know what you're saying here, but I can't help but think that entering a third simultaneous war is limiting to the military and definitely qualifies as misusing it. This right out of the box, even before you start egregiously tying your commanders' hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    The military isn't supposed to be limited. If you're limiting the military, then you aren't using it right. The military is a Hell-shattering force of overwhelming destructive capabilities with the sole purpose of breaking an enemy force's capabilities of mounting any sort of threat to the United States (which 9/10 of the time doesn't even exist in the first place, these days).
    Exactly. Congress has authority to declare war, not 1/10 of a war. The Founders weren't that dumb.

  34. #30
    A no-fly zone is an act of war. An act of war is an act of war. Performing an act of war is an unspoken declaration of war (but a formal one should be given). No, you can't have a portion of a war and consider it to not be a war. An act of war, whatever that act may be, is still war. A no-fly zone IS war. The non-interventionist and non-aggression principle/peace/anti-war position recognize this. A no-fly zone is not something light; it is very grave, as is war, because it is an act of war.

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