View Poll Results: Should public employees be allowed to unionize?

Voters
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  • Yes

    10 11.63%
  • Maybe; Indifferent

    8 9.30%
  • No

    68 79.07%
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Thread: Should Public Unions Exist?

  1. #1

    Should Public Unions Exist?

    I wrote a thread about unions the other day but forgot to include a poll. So, should public employees be permitted to unionize? Feel free to vote.

    I'm going to start writing about controversial topics that interest me and share my unorthodox viewpoints. Share your thoughts and feel free to challenge me.

    Today I'm going to focus on collective bargaining, particularly in the public sector. This is a topic in the news because of a stand-off between lawmakers and unions in Wisconsin who oppose the governor and Republican majority's plan to reduce union benefits and strictly limit public collective bargaining rights to decisions regarding pay. 14 Democratic lawmakers in the minority who oppose the bill to rein in public sector spending and limit collective bargaining have fled the state of Wisconsin to prevent a vote in the state senate, which requires a quorum of 20 members to vote on a bill. Given that there are only 19 Republicans in the majority, the bill cannot pass under this quasi-filibuster. I want to explore three topics:
    1. Are the benefit cuts appropriate and necessary?
    2. Should public workers be allowed to collectively bargain by forming unions?
    3. Should lawmakers be held accountable for neglecting their duty to partake in the legislative process?

    CUTS:
    While I think the benefit cuts are unfortunate given how most public workers probably work hard to contribute to society and were not directly responsible for the mishandling of state and municipal funds, the cuts are necessary to bring in excessive public spending. I am not opposed to raising taxes as a means of temporarily bringing revenue balance in a crisis, but that is not to say that spending cuts should not be the priority. The state will simply use increased tax revenue as justification for increased spending and the crisis will repeat itself while even more capital is drained from the private sector, affecting unemployment. So, how bad are the proposed cuts? Governor Walker’s bill attempts to raise what union members pay for their health coverage from 6% to 12%, which seems reasonable given the average American worker pays between 20-25%. Furthermore, public employees would fund 50 percent of the annual pension payment, which would be a contribution of about 5.8% of their 2011 salary. I think it's fair to expect public workers to have to shoulder some of the burden of their benefits, especially given how private sector taxpayers in Wisconsin make only 74% of their state-level public sector counterparts. This is the 48th worst pay differential in the nation.

    The alternative to cutting benefits and raising taxes would be a reduction in the number essential public workers. How many public sector jobs might be lost if concessions are not made by public unions? If the state misses a deadline to refinance $165 million of debt it will be forced to start issuing layoff notices to a potential total of 1,500 employees. I don't think anyone wants to see that scenario play out, so it would be in the best interest of the taxpayers and the public employees to find some common ground by agreeing to a package of tying any temporary revenue increased to cuts to benefits and non-essential services.

    There is one final option: the state defaults on its debt obligations and declares bankruptcy. This sounds scary, but losses are shared with investors who will no longer receive 100% principal as debt is liquidated. In a bankruptcy scenario the restructuring of the state's finances would be achieved quicker, allowing for the market to rebalance risk and reward and resume growth at a faster pace. The consequence for government will be that it will be hamstringed in further efforts to incur high levels of debt as a result of higher interest rates. The economic downturn would admittedly be sharp initially and services would be limited to what is essential, but the recovery would be hastened by the liquidation. The sooner and more thorough the correction, the more economically sound the state would be in the future. Even if this scenario were to potentially occur, which is highly unlikely because of the stigma associated with bankruptcy and the political fallout, the US federal government and the Federal Reserve would likely bailout the state to prevent the liquidation process entirely or extend the correction to the benefit of the politicians and financiers who were on the losing side of betting on the state's finances. This would create a moral hazard by establishing a precedent for future bailouts when states fail to take serious steps to balance their budgets. This encourages privatized gains while socializing losses, making taxpayers nationally pay for the excesses of a few.

    PUBLIC EMPLOYEE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING:
    Let's start by exploring why collective bargaining in general exists. Unions are proposed, voted on, and certified to advocate worker rights and benefits. They negotiate to secure these interests. Unions collect dues from their members in order to advocate for these rights and benefits, organize a professional team to negotiate for their interests, and pay into union-sponsored plans such as work insurance in the case of a strike. So, should public employees have collective bargaining rights? The question comes down to who they are bargaining and negotiating with. Private sector trade unions negotiate with management, who act on behalf of shareholder interests, as two distinct entities without impacting third-parties. It is in the interest of a private sector union not to financially ruin the business they are negotiating with. The problem with public sector unions is that taxpayers are not represented at the negotiating table when the unions and politicians both have a vested interest in more spending.

    It's interesting to note that military members don't have collective bargaining rights as public sector employees. The reason is not because they provide an essential service which requires compliance and hierarchy, because the same argument could be made for police unions. It's because their work is not for the distinct benefit of themselves like private sector workers, it is to the public benefit. As public servants they should be treated well and rewarded for their work, but their costs and benefits must be considered by the general public rather than negotiating independently.

    Now, there are plenty of other problems with public unions as well. Private sector employment is based on needs and merit, but this generally does not apply to the public sector where it is arguably more important to society to effectively address public needs and instill meritocracy. For example, agreements with teachers unions such as in New York generally establish that seniority outranks performance in determining pay and employment within the public school system. Lack of competition within these public institutions leads to poorer services and sacrifices a younger, more innovative workforce in order to protect the established. Another significant problem is that many public workers do not have the right to refuse to join a union or the right not to pay compulsory union dues. This, along with the fact that public union certification does not require secret ballots, provides public unions with an unnatural monopoly and hurts public workers who do not desire to partake in the collective bargaining.

    LAWMAKERS:
    What should happen to Wisconsin's state senators who fled the state to prevent a quorum and avoid voting on difficult cuts? Well, given that they are abandoning their jobs to participate in governance for Wisconsin's constituents, they should lose their jobs entirely. If they want to filibuster the bill, they must do so within the legislative process, not by avoiding the legislative process. We live in a republic where the constitutional rule of law is supreme, not any decision of a majority. Therefore, their efforts should be focused on overturning such a bill as a violation of constitutional rights and limitations if they cannot overcome the bill through a vote.
    The Peter Schiff Show - Production
    Schiff for Senate 2010 Grassroots Team Leader
    Former Campaign for Liberty Local Coordinator



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  3. #2
    Anything that isn't absolutely 100% necessary to exist as part of the government in order to protect every last one of a person's rights shouldn't exist.
    "Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon." - Rorschach

  4. #3
    Golding
    Member

    I don't have a problem with public unions, and I'm not so sure about forcing them against unionizing. But likewise, forcing people into unions just to get a job is atrocious and is much more commonplace than anyone forcing against unions. There's a lot of talk about "union rights" being removed. That's not what we're seeing.

    The thing is, I don't think that teachers should be public workers, nor fire departments nor policemen. I think Wisconsin is making the right move for the sake of fiscal survival, and a precipitous approach is probably better than just eliminating the public sector altogether. I wish my state had the courage to do the same, but that will never happen.
    Last edited by Golding; 02-26-2011 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #4
    Nope! I have no problem restricting "union rights" from people who live off the taxpayer.

  6. #5
    Nope. Government jobs should be a public service, not a career.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  7. #6
    Public Unions will Exist regardless.

    Should they have special Collective bargaining rights? NO
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  8. #7
    can mere unions encrouch on a sense of sovreignty?

  9. #8
    No.

    All of the free market checks and balances WRT to collective bargaining; labor costs, profit and loss, competition and productivity all go out the window when it's a government job, paid for with extorted money, that has no competition in the market and no incentives for increased productivity, advancement and market growth.



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  11. #9
    Gonna have to disagree with most here and vote Yes, public unions should be allowed to exist.

    Public workers earn a living from the branches of government that are necessary for the general benefit of the people. If you agree with the Founders and believe that governments can actually add value to society, then public employees are every bit as important as private sector employees.

    The only reason why you would vote NO to this question is if you're a pure anarchist.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by freshjiva View Post
    Gonna have to disagree with most here and vote Yes, public unions should be allowed to exist.
    I agree. I have no problem with the existence of public unions.
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  13. #11
    RonPaulCult
    Member

    Yes they should exist if the workers choose to create them. The right to associate freely is a universal, natural right. HOWEVER, the government has no obligation to work with/deal with unions - just like a private employer does not have to.

  14. #12
    RonPaulCult
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by freshjiva View Post
    Gonna have to disagree with most here and vote Yes, public unions should be allowed to exist.

    Public workers earn a living from the branches of government that are necessary for the general benefit of the people. If you agree with the Founders and believe that governments can actually add value to society, then public employees are every bit as important as private sector employees.

    The only reason why you would vote NO to this question is if you're a pure anarchist.
    I agree with most of your post except for the last part. Would a pure anarchist use GOVERNMENT FORCE to not allow people to unionize/associate freely?
    Last edited by RonPaulCult; 02-26-2011 at 03:10 PM.

  15. #13
    RonPaulCult
    Member

    You might as well be asking if The Muslim Brotherhood should exist. Um - if they want to exist they can - are you going to use the force of government to stop them because you don't like them?
    Last edited by RonPaulCult; 02-26-2011 at 03:16 PM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by freshjiva View Post

    The only reason why you would vote NO to this question is if you're a pure anarchist.
    See post #8

  17. #15
    Seems like the wrong question to be asking, honestly. "Should public unions exist?" implies that the state should have its hands in education/law enforcement/the fire department. Realistically, all these services should either be completely private or the state should contract these services out to private companies.

    Given that, sure, these workers can unionize if the market allows for it.

  18. #16
    Hell. No.

    Public servants (remember, that term?) make a living at the sufferance of the taxpayers. Their method of earning money is not even remotely the same as a private sector worker that may or may not belong to a union. Sorry, but you accept relative job security whereas the rest of us live under The Sword of Damocles in the private sector.
    "Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken

    Μολὼν λάβε

    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt




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  20. #17
    Strangely aren't public labor unions kind of a redundancy? I mean you're assembling a group to represent your interests and negotiate with your representative government?

    Oh well I guess I can see some value in them for public workers but we can't have our government give them premium pensions and benefits that burden the private sector who has to pay for it.

  21. #18
    The Questions shouldn't be whether people have right to organize unions in the public sector, the questions should be whether there should be a public sector at all.
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  22. #19

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexMerced View Post
    The Questions shouldn't be whether people have right to organize unions in the public sector, the questions should be whether there should be a public sector at all.
    The majority of Americans don't want anarchy and neither do I.
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  24. #21
    I don't like the emphasis or wording, but I voted "no" anyway. Instead of focusing on the employees, the question should ask, "Should the government be allowed to hire unionized employees?" (No.) I get the feeling the "maybe" votes had to do with the misplaced emphasis as well.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 02-26-2011 at 04:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  25. #22
    Hehe there should be a public sector within reason and the more local the better. Having public works and workers next door is easier to watchdog and keep it smaller and hold it accountable.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by MRoCkEd View Post
    Nope! I have no problem restricting "union rights" from people who live off the taxpayer.
    Correct. If your check comes from taxpayers , you should not be allowed a union.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    The majority of Americans don't want anarchy and neither do I.
    The majority of Americans think it's okay for a group called "the government" to steal private property, and so does frank.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor View Post
    The majority of Americans think it's okay for a group called "the government" to steal private property, and so does frank.
    So does Ron Paul apparently.
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by freshjiva View Post
    The only reason why you would vote NO to this question is if you're a pure anarchist.
    Not even close.
    I am for limited government.
    There are very few jobs necessary, aside from elected positions and those should be considered "service" rather than employment.
    So no,I don't think there should be "public employees" let alone unionized employees.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 02-26-2011 at 04:21 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexMerced View Post
    The Questions shouldn't be whether people have right to organize unions in the public sector, the questions should be whether there should be a public sector at all.
    The word "public" makes no sense to me, when associated with the state.

    These are privately owned and managed organizations that have been granted the power to steal from people, through an organization called the state.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  32. #28
    no, I hate unions both public and private. I was in a union and they were trying to dictate who I should vote for and where I should shop, etc.
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

    How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    So does Ron Paul apparently.

    "All initiation of force is a violation of someone else's rights, whether initiated by an individual or the state, for the benefit of an individual or group of individuals, even if it's supposed to be for the benefit of another individual or group of individuals." - Ron Paul

    MHD: "What do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than a return to the Constitution? Just like ..."

    Ron Paul: "Great. Fine. And I think that's really what my goal is.".

    Last edited by ClayTrainor; 02-26-2011 at 04:26 PM.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor View Post
    "All initiation of force is a violation of someone else's rights, whether initiated by an individual or the state, for the benefit of an individual or group of individuals, even if it's supposed to be for the benefit of another individual or group of individuals." - Ron Paul

    MHD: "What do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than a return to the Constitution? Just like ..."

    Ron Paul: "Great. Fine. And I think that's really what my goal is.".

    Go to New Hampshire declare Anarchy. See how well it works out for ya. I'll be curious myself.
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

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