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Thread: Firefighters let woman die because the fire was hot like "a pizza oven"

  1. #1

    Angry Firefighters let woman die because the fire was hot like "a pizza oven"

    I'm glad to know some firefighters think it's okay not to save somebody a.k.a do their job if the fire looks a little too intimidating.

    An 84-year-old historian who as young girl fled the Nazis after Kristallnacht died Monday trying to escape a roaring fire in her Ossining home.

    Charlotte Arner had tried desperately to escape the fire consuming her two-story home on Noel Drive -- her body was found just inches from her front door,according to the Journal News.

    Intense heat and smoke kept firefighters from rushing inside, with Fire Chief Thomas Reddy telling the paper that Arner's stucco home trapped the heat "like a pizza oven."

    Arner, a respected archivist and translator, had lived alone after being widowed and had been writing her memoirs, neighbors told the Journal News.

    Arner's neighbor, Patty Chapman, told the paper that she was "great, up and out every day, still driving her silver Beetle. My dog just died, and she's been coaching me to get anouther dog. She was very funny."

    Chapman said that she was helping Arner organize the story of her life, according to the paper. She learned that Arner had lived in Berlin until she was 12 but then fled to America with her family.

    They survived the horrible night in November 1938 known as Kristallinacht when hundreds were killed and pograms wiped out Jewish homes, firms and temples.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41706549

    Also does anybody else notice the context? Fled Nazis, firefighter say it was hot like an oven. Really?
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

    How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."



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  3. #2
    Just like cops (and most everything else for that matter nowadays) the whole focus is on safety and not results.

    This is the attitude that says it is better to do nothing than do something that is "unsafe".

    Safety uber Alles.

  4. #3
    If it was warm like a "pizza oven" then everyone inside was likely dead.

    This thread title has no basis in the article written. It doesn't say the lady was killed by firefighter neglect.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  5. #4
    Not being there, we don't know how intense the fire actually was and if they were "wooses" for not going in.
    Intense heat and smoke kept firefighters from rushing inside,
    roaring fire in her Ossining home
    Another article with a bit more information:
    http://www.lohud.com/article/2011022...-Ossining-fire
    Firefighters found her body in the front entranceway of her home at 26 Noel Drive after breaking down the door. They had tried to get in from the side, but the heat and smoke made an earlier entry impossible. They have since removed the body and an autopsy will be conducted this afternoon by the Westchester County Medical Examiner's Office.

    Ossining Fire Chief Thomas Reddy said the home, stucco with a slate roof, contained the heat.

    The fire was still smoldering in parts of the dwelling after noon, more than four hours after neighbor Patty Chapman looked out her window and spotted the house on fire and called 911.
    Peter Chapman said he ran over to the home as his wife called for help and tried to get in the back door but was unable to because of the heat. He broke a side window but was told by arriving firefighters that the building was too dangerous to enter.
    "Let her die"- doesn't sound like it. They did make efforts to enter the home but were forced back by the heat, smoke, and fire.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 02-21-2011 at 04:03 PM.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Not being there, we don't know how intense the fire actually was and if they were "wooses" for not going in.



    Another article with a bit more information:
    http://www.lohud.com/article/2011022...-Ossining-fire


    "Let her die"- doesn't sound like it. They did make efforts to enter the home but were forced back by the heat, smoke, and fire.
    I'm sorry from the article I read they were firefighters, not fireassessors

    I'm pretty sure if it was one of the guy's wives, they would have gotten her out.
    Last edited by Warrior_of_Freedom; 02-21-2011 at 04:11 PM.
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

    How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior_of_Freedom View Post
    I'm sorry from the article I read they were firefighters, not fireassessors
    If they weren't "fire assessors" they wouldn't be firefighters very long. Hard hats and oxygen masks aren't very useful melted to your head.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    If they weren't "fire assessors" they wouldn't be firefighters very long. Hard hats and oxygen masks aren't very useful melted to your head.
    Yeah, the two news accounts vary wildly.

    One gives the impression that not much effort was made to effect a rescue and she died just inches from escape.

    The other gives the impression that the structure was fully involved by the time they arrived and Satan himself could not have entered.

    This is standard turn out gear:



    You'd need this to even try and make entry on a fully involved structure:


  9. #8
    As a firefighter myself, I'll go ahead and say that the first thing they tell you in training is "you can't help anyone if you're dead."

    We do what we can to an extent.

    Folks, I plead with you here:

    Make sure you and your loved ones have a fire-escape plan (and practice it, even if you worry what the neighbors will think). If you have elderly parents make sure they have adequate smoke detectors.

    If I were a (decent) cop, this would be the equivalent of me asking you to please carry a gun.

    I guarantee you that as a victim, you'll beat me to the scene of a fire every time.

    Oh, one more thing: Don't break windows unless you know what you're doing, that's hollywood nonsense. All that does is give the fire access to more oxygen to burn more furiously.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 02-21-2011 at 04:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yeah, the two news accounts vary wildly.

    One gives the impression that not much effort was made to effect a rescue and she died just inches from escape.

    The other gives the impression that the structure was fully involved by the time they arrived and Satan himself could not have entered.

    This is standard turn out gear:



    You'd need this to even try and make entry on a fully involved structure:

    Correct, you can still feel the heat no prob in the suits in the first picture, same get up commonly used on ships. On a side note-the don't let any heat out, either, and get stifling not even being in a fire. They get soaked with sweat relatively quick, so I'd imagine you'd get steamed in it...yikes

    The "potato suits" are awesome, had to wear one when part of a helo refueling team.
    Last edited by coastie; 02-21-2011 at 04:57 PM.
    EX-USCG


    What is the difference between a hero and a cop? A hero will not hesitate to risk his life to protect your safety, a cop will not hesitate to risk your life to protect his safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Authoritarian leftists. Political prisoners. Gulags. Where are we again?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    As a firefighter myself, I'll go ahead and say that the first thing they tell you in training is "you can't help anyone if you're dead."

    We do what we can to an extent.

    Folks, I plead with you here:

    Make sure you and your loved ones have a fire-escape plan (and practice it, even if you worry what the neighbors will think). If you have elderly parents make sure they have adequate smoke detectors.

    If I were a (decent) cop, this would be the equivalent of me asking you to please carry a gun.

    I guarantee you that as a victim, you'll beat me to the scene of a fire every time.

    Oh, one more thing: Don't break windows unless you know what you're doing, that's hollywood nonsense. All that does is give the fire access to more oxygen to burn more furiously.
    Good advice.

    I'd add fire suppression as well.

    I live in an area that, in the winter may take 30 minutes or more to have truck get to the house.

    I installed sprinklers over the heating equipment and oil tanks in the basement, have multiple extinguishers around the house, and installed these really neat, next generation "Halon", safe for habitable spaces, automatic discharge, marine type fire extinguishers in the void spaces where the woodstove flue penetrates the second floor and attic.

    Short of an explosion of some sorts, I think I could contain just about any type of common household fire.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by coastie View Post
    Correct, you can still feel the heat no prob in the suits in the first picture, same get up commonly used on ships. On a side note-the don't let any heat out, either, and get stifling not even being in a fire. They get soaked with sweat relatively quick, so I'd imagine you'd get steamed in it...yikes

    The "potato suits" are awesome, had to wear one when part of a helo refueling team.
    I used one similar to the middle one, during firefighting training that the vessel charterer required for bulk methanol transport.

    I and another man had to approach a 20 foot "rosebud" flare running propane through about 50 jets all around the thing and put it out.

    Hotter than hell, even in the suit.

  14. #12
    My current house was built by a former fire chief. I have $#@!ing sprinklers!

    No idea if they work, or what it would take to set them off. The smoke detectors aren't enough, thank heavens.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Good advice.

    I'd add fire suppression as well.

    I live in an area that, in the winter may take 30 minutes or more to have truck get to the house.

    I installed sprinklers over the heating equipment and oil tanks in the basement, have multiple extinguishers around the house, and installed these really neat, next generation "Halon", safe for habitable spaces, automatic discharge, marine type fire extinguishers in the void spaces where the woodstove flue penetrates the second floor and attic.

    Short of an explosion of some sorts, I think I could contain just about any type of common household fire.
    I don't have much experience with residential single-family sprinkler systems, but that's definitely something I'd like to see really take root. (free-market style, of course, although they'll probably make it mandatory at some point)

    I'd say first and foremost to make sure that you and your loved ones can get out. As they say, everything else can be replaced.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men

  16. #14
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    Take it from a former firefighter the 1st question asked in any fire, rescue, or ems class I've taken: Who is #1 one the scene? correct answer I AM. Always look out for yourself first.

  17. #15
    LOL Check out the link again, they edited out the "pizza oven" part. LOL.



    You don't see it in the article anymore.

    The ADL must have nicked it.
    Last edited by Warrior_of_Freedom; 02-21-2011 at 09:22 PM.
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

    How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I used one similar to the middle one, during firefighting training that the vessel charterer required for bulk methanol transport.

    I and another man had to approach a 20 foot "rosebud" flare running propane through about 50 jets all around the thing and put it out.

    Hotter than hell, even in the suit.
    We used the middle one, too. Went to fire school training in I believe Rhode Island, might've been Connecticut I can't remember, same thing, hell maybe same place.
    EX-USCG


    What is the difference between a hero and a cop? A hero will not hesitate to risk his life to protect your safety, a cop will not hesitate to risk your life to protect his safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Authoritarian leftists. Political prisoners. Gulags. Where are we again?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    As a firefighter myself, I'll go ahead and say that the first thing they tell you in training is "you can't help anyone if you're dead."

    We do what we can to an extent.

    Folks, I plead with you here:

    Make sure you and your loved ones have a fire-escape plan (and practice it, even if you worry what the neighbors will think). If you have elderly parents make sure they have adequate smoke detectors.

    If I were a (decent) cop, this would be the equivalent of me asking you to please carry a gun.

    I guarantee you that as a victim, you'll beat me to the scene of a fire every time.

    Oh, one more thing: Don't break windows unless you know what you're doing, that's hollywood nonsense. All that does is give the fire access to more oxygen to burn more furiously.
    Well said. I certainly can see situations where firefighters should stay back - I don't see the point of people here jumping to conclusions without seeing the facts.
    Ron Paul: "For those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do."

  21. #18

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    Well said. I certainly can see situations where firefighters should stay back - I don't see the point of people here jumping to conclusions without seeing the facts.
    Yah, like I said, the news accounts vary wildly in their wording and it seems like, upon further reading, in this case, there was nothing that could be done at all.

    That said, it's not out of the question, there's been more than a couple of reports of EMTs refusing to treat people, (some who later went on to die) and reports of firemen who have "hung back" and had people arrested who tried to effect a rescue of people or animals, not to mention quite a few reports of cops "hanging back" on active shooting scenes.

    Safety is all well and good, but considerations have to be taken into account where your job requires you to put yourself into a situation that normal rational thought would tell you to flee from.

    I've fought more than a couple fires at sea, and there's nothing "safe" about it, safe would tell you to jump overboard and take your chances.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 02-21-2011 at 10:59 PM.



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