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Thread: Private police / police insurance

  1. #1

    Question Private police / police insurance

    I was trying to figure out how a completely privatized community would work out and I was considering the way that police would be paid.

    I'm already figuring the fire department can be paid by charging to put out the fire and providing fire insurance which would cover the costs.

    I was wondering if that might be a good way to go for police service. If you get robbed or something happens where you need police service, you pay for their service (then try to get the money back from the criminal through the court system).

    This sounds like a pretty crappy way of doing things. I can't imagine a woman getting raped, the police come out to help and then give her a bill on top of it. But that's pretty much how it works for a fire department that gives you a bill after your house burned up.

    Other than getting a bill, if you were to have the option of buying police insurance then it wouldn't be so bad when you call the cops. You could get lower rates for setting up good security in your home or living in a safe neighborhood, or by carrying a gun, etc.

    This would also allow for several police companies. You can always have a few choices in your cell phone for different situations based on what kind of police you prefer.

    Any thoughts on this type of setup?
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwar View Post
    I was trying to figure out how a completely privatized community would work out and I was considering the way that police would be paid.

    I'm already figuring the fire department can be paid by charging to put out the fire and providing fire insurance which would cover the costs.

    I was wondering if that might be a good way to go for police service. If you get robbed or something happens where you need police service, you pay for their service (then try to get the money back from the criminal through the court system).

    This sounds like a pretty crappy way of doing things. I can't imagine a woman getting raped, the police come out to help and then give her a bill on top of it. But that's pretty much how it works for a fire department that gives you a bill after your house burned up.

    Other than getting a bill, if you were to have the option of buying police insurance then it wouldn't be so bad when you call the cops. You could get lower rates for setting up good security in your home or living in a safe neighborhood, or by carrying a gun, etc.

    This would also allow for several police companies. You can always have a few choices in your cell phone for different situations based on what kind of police you prefer.

    Any thoughts on this type of setup?
    Why would you need or want police?
    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

    please rethink the concept.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  4. #3
    Police insurance? I'd love to buy insurance like that! Just imagine, the police violate your rights and you get a lawyer to defend you and then sue their asses. Where do I sign up?
    I have an autographed copy of Revolution: A Manifesto for sale. Mint condition, inquire within. (I don't sign in often, so please allow plenty of time for a response)

  5. #4
    Ofcourse there should be police. What are you going to do when crime happens? Go vigilante on the criminal? What if he is stronger? You going to need to pay some one to protect you.

    The way I see it is the cops could be hired by someone other then the victim. Malls hire security, so could neighborhoods and public places that are covered by the police force now. This should take care of any static patrol.

    Investigators would probably function exactly like the private investigators now. The victim would go to one to help him find the criminal. Then go to court and have bounty hunters take the guy down.

    So all in all we would have to assess if the police now achieve what we think it achieves. I certainly do not patrols cover much area now. Most crimes where police muscle is needed are not a big expense. Patrolling is what costs most money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    Americans in general are jedi masters of blaming every other person.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhandorder View Post
    Ofcourse there should be police. What are you going to do when crime happens? Go vigilante on the criminal? What if he is stronger? You going to need to pay some one to protect you.
    vigilant
    : alertly watchful especially to avoid danger

    You say it like it's a bad thing.

    And the Second Amendment would allow you to be armed
    What is wrong with an ELECTED Sheriff and neighborhood watches (militia)

    Please read the supporting material at the link. And rethink the very concept of police.
    It is contrary to Liberty.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  7. #6
    I don't think you can stop some one from paying some one else to go beat up a bad guy. It is that simple. Once that happens you will have professional business form.

    Militias and sherifs are good but they are not going to meet the needs of a population. You going to need professionals. I am not saying to give monopoly to security agencies or give them special rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    Americans in general are jedi masters of blaming every other person.

  8. #7
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    Bounty hunters? I don't think they need a warrant. Would that be good for the people? idk

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhandorder View Post
    I don't think you can stop some one from paying some one else to go beat up a bad guy. It is that simple. Once that happens you will have professional business form.
    There have been such private armies before and the abuses are documented.
    A well known example is The firebombing of Jessie James Family and home. This drove him into a war with the railroads.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverhandorder View Post
    Militias and sherifs are good but they are not going to meet the needs of a population. You going to need professionals. I am not saying to give monopoly to security agencies or give them special rights.
    Professionals, is that a joke?
    The needs of the population are personal responsibility. It is abdicating responsibility that gave rise to the police state.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  11. #9
    In a true an cap society I think the "police" would operate completely and entirely different then they do right now and it would have a lot more to do with preventative actions instead of reactive actions.

  12. #10
    The railroad police I heard had the best reputation out of any police forces in US and it was completely private.

    When I say professionals I mean division of labor. Unless you still make your own chairs you can see how it is stupid to say that every individuals should be their own police men. Some individuals will pay others to do this for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    Americans in general are jedi masters of blaming every other person.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    In a true an cap society I think the "police" would operate completely and entirely different then they do right now and it would have a lot more to do with preventative actions instead of reactive actions.
    Preventative actions?
    You mean Pre-Crime. How would that work exactly?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwar View Post
    Other than getting a bill, if you were to have the option of buying police insurance then it wouldn't be so bad when you call the cops. You could get lower rates for setting up good security in your home or living in a safe neighborhood, or by carrying a gun, etc.

    This would also allow for several police companies. You can always have a few choices in your cell phone for different situations based on what kind of police you prefer.

    Any thoughts on this type of setup?
    I think you got it.

    Also, I would imagine protection would probably be provided by the property owner. So if you aren't constantly walking around with a bodyguard, there is a good chance whatever street or business you are on has private protection provided in order to make their customers feel safe.

    INB4 argument from apocalypse:

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhandorder View Post
    The railroad police I heard had the best reputation out of any police forces in US and it was completely private.

    When I say professionals I mean division of labor. Unless you still make your own chairs you can see how it is stupid to say that every individuals should be their own police men. Some individuals will pay others to do this for them.
    Railroad police had a reputation. And that depends entirely on who was abused and who benefited from that abuse.

    Personal responsibility is not a divided labor. Personal security is a personal responsibility. If you wish to hire a personal Bodyguard that is your choice, but you have no right to interfere with anyone else rights. Nor to hire someone to do it for you.

    Please read the link I posted,, It is long, but quite worthwhile.
    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhandorder View Post
    The way I see it is the cops could be hired by someone other then the victim. Malls hire security, so could neighborhoods and public places that are covered by the police force now. This should take care of any static patrol.
    Mall cops or having businesses hire cops is ok but what if it is the businesses that are committing the crime? And combining money for security tends to punish those who's businesses or homes are safe while rewarding those who leave themselves open to crime.

    And under this model there's no reason to say that you have to call the police. It's a service that you can use like any other.
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.

  17. #15
    but who would you call to take notes after your house is broken into?
    Those Who Do Not Move, Do Not Notice Their Chains.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by invisible View Post
    Police insurance? I'd love to buy insurance like that! Just imagine, the police violate your rights and you get a lawyer to defend you and then sue their asses. Where do I sign up?
    With competing police agencies you could call one police agency to come and arrest the others...

    Plus, with competition, the ones that violate people's rights would go out of business quickly.
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Preventative actions?
    You mean Pre-Crime. How would that work exactly?
    Are you really asking me how crime prevention works? I can't tell if you are serious or not.

  21. #18

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    Are you really asking me how crime prevention works? I can't tell if you are serious or not.
    I am serious. How do you prevent a murder from happening? unless you are right there at that moment to stop the murderer.

    how do you prevent one person from assaulting another?

    It is an honest and serious question. Unless your can actually predict the future and be omnipresent,,, you can't.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Wesker1982 View Post
    They won't be a business for long.
    Why, as far as I know,,many still are after a hundred years.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  24. #21

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I am serious. How do you prevent a murder from happening? unless you are right there at that moment to stop the murderer.

    how do you prevent one person from assaulting another?

    It is an honest and serious question. Unless your can actually predict the future and be omnipresent,,, you can't.
    i've been thinking about his a lot and i believe you are right. the police very rarely stop a crime in progress. they are merely glorified note-takers who like to kick some ass on teenagers because they're so excited to finally have caught one in the act.

    people need the means to protect themselves. communities need to look out for each other.

    unfortunately everyone is under the false impression that they are being protected by the boys in blue while they sleep.

    people have given up the means to defend themselves and have lost the knowledge altogether.

    this is why you rarely see good samaritans but often see witnesses filming with their smart phone.
    Those Who Do Not Move, Do Not Notice Their Chains.

  26. #23
    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
    LAW ENFORCEMENT AS A UNIVERSAL DUTY

    Law enforcement in the Founders' time was a duty of every citizen.32 Citizens were expected to be armed and equipped to chase suspects on foot, on horse, or with wagon whenever summoned. And when called upon to enforce the laws of the state, citizens were to respond "not faintly and with lagging steps, but honestly and bravely and with whatever implements and facilities [were] convenient and at hand."33 Any person could act in the capacity of a constable without being one,34 and when summoned by a law enforcement officer, a private person became a temporary member of the police department.35 The law also presumed that any person acting in his public capacity as an officer was rightfully appointed.36

    Laws in virtually every state still require citizens to aid in capturing escaped prisoners, arresting criminal suspects, and executing legal process. The duty of citizens to enforce the law was and is a constitutional one. Many early state constitutions purported to bind citizens into a universal obligation to perform law enforcement functions, yet evinced no mention of any state power to carry out those same functions.37 But the law enforcement duties of the citizenry are now a long-forgotten remnant of the Framers' era.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I am serious. How do you prevent a murder from happening? unless you are right there at that moment to stop the murderer.

    how do you prevent one person from assaulting another?

    It is an honest and serious question. Unless your can actually predict the future and be omnipresent,,, you can't.
    Ok, I didn't realize this puzzled you.

    Well of course you have a point. Once the conditions for a murder are there it's too late to try and predict the future of when exactly it's going to happen, as it is for any other crime. What "police" in an cap society would do though (to minimize their costs and max their profits) is they'll figure out which socio-economic conditions usually are the cause for crime. Whether it's poverty or whether it's bigotry or whatever else sets the conditions for someone violating someones rights and they'd actively work to prevent said conditions. No need to predict the future of a crime that can't happen.

    On the other hand if it's not possible to prevent the conditions you still have alarms, neighborhood watch and a well armed society that can help with deterring criminals from striking.

    So as you can see, there's a lot that can be done. It's practically the same with your health where if you eat bad, don't exercise and don't rest enough it's to late to think about preventing a sickness and trying to figure out when exactly it's going to happen. But you sure can figure out what helps your health and what hurts and you can actively live a style where it's going to be less likely that you get sick. And then you do regular check ups with your doctor so you can catch a disease in it's early stage to further help the health of your body.
    Last edited by hazek; 02-16-2011 at 12:09 PM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    Ok, I didn't realize this puzzled you.

    What "police" in an cap society would do though (to minimize their costs and max their profits)
    .
    I don't want profits at the expense of Liberty.
    This is why I oppose the Very Concept of police.

    They are unnecessary and contrary to Liberty.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I don't want profits at the expense of Liberty.
    This is why I oppose the Very Concept of police.

    They are unnecessary and contrary to Liberty.
    Why are you so stubborn? Please swallow your ego and listen.

    First of all I put the word police in "" because it would actually just be a security firm. It wouldn't be the only one for that matter and it would have to compete with a market.
    Second of all if it didn't guarantee liberty and effectiveness and no one was forced to sign a contract with them they'd soon go bankrupt because of the competition.


    Please stop thinking in the paradigm we're in right now where there's a central force that keeps a monopoly on certain services and expand your imagination on how it could work in a real an cap society.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I don't want profits at the expense of Liberty.
    Profits would be made by defending liberty. Only the federal government, through the coercion of taxation, can wage billion dollar "wars" on non-crimes like prostitution and drug use. Any private agency would have to dramatically increase their rates to wage wars of aggression, they would lose business to the non-aggressive agencies.

    Also, as Rothbard points out, these private agencies would have no inherent sense of legitimacy. A PDA busting down someone's door for smoking marijuana would be seen as no different than private citizen doing the same thing.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    Why are you so stubborn? Please swallow your ego and listen.

    First of all I put the word police in "" because it would actually just be a security firm. It wouldn't be the only one for that matter and it would have to compete with a market.
    Second of all if it didn't guarantee liberty and effectiveness and no one was forced to sign a contract with them they'd soon go bankrupt because of the competition.


    Please stop thinking in the paradigm we're in right now where there's a central force that keeps a monopoly on certain services and expand your imagination on how it could work in a real an cap society.
    Stubborn? Perhaps.
    but I am not an anarchist. An-cap, or otherwise.
    I am a capitalist by practicality. But not at all anarchist (despite being accused of such)
    I do not see any benefit in force for profit, and contrary to a liberty concept.
    I see no place in a free society for police, whether state or private. I find the very concept of police abhorrent.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 02-16-2011 at 12:34 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  33. #29
    Police exist for the following reasons, which are listed in increasing order of the cops' perceived importance.

    -As glorified garbage men, to document crime scenes after the fact, whereupon they will either do absolutely nothing, or abduct an individual who had nothing to do with it

    -To catch teenagers in the act of riding skateboards

    -To act as revenue agents of the state, collecting fines for safe behavior like speeding

    -Finally, the most important thing cops do:
    Protect each other at all costs.


    So, don't know about you all, but the first item up there is the only thing that they do that I could see myself paying money for in the first place (minus the $#@!ing it up part, that is).
    If all they do that adds value to society is document crime scenes, then hell, give me back my portion of the money they take from me to pay for the cops, and I'll add it to my homeowner's insurance to cover a PI when needed, and have enough left over to cover Christmas.


    ETA: I'm not assuming that we need the same paradigm as pcosmar was accused of.
    I am looking at it from this angle:
    If that is what cops do (and it is ALL that they do), then it stands to reason that the free market would not require of private cops more than it requires of public cops.
    Last edited by fisharmor; 02-16-2011 at 12:38 PM.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  34. #30
    How much would they charge to shoot your dog when it barks at them?

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