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Thread: Rothbard On The Myth Of Ronald Reagan

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010 View Post
    He is right though. He clearly shows how Reagan's budgets and policies grew government in California and in the Federal Government in the 80's.

    Government got bigger, not smaller, under Reagan. Just the facts man!

    Also, I don't take much stock in who the SPLC says is a racist. That term is thrown around just to silence people or invalidate their ideas. Rand was supposed to be a vicious racist, right? No, the media was just scared that a libertarian might actually get elected.
    You know what the taxpayers have paid RP about 4.5 million dollars in 30 years, has the government gotten smaller since we paid him all that money? Just the facts man. Just what freedoms has RP given you or what part of the govenment has gotten smaller? Just the facts man. Just the facts!
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Fail. Lew took the "blame" for the newsletters all along. Taken in context, the newsletters in question were not racist. They were about a prominent issue at the time-the LA riots. This whole issue was just an attempt to smear both Lew and RP (and by extension Rothbard). It's unfortunate you've taken the bait.

    This, for example, is the primary excerpt used to smear Rothbard:
    SO: WHY TALK ABOUT RACE AT ALL? If, then, the Race Question is really a problem for statists and not for paleos, why should we talk about the race matter at all? Why should it be a political concern for us; why not leave the issue entirely to the scientists?
    Two reasons we have already mentioned; to celebrate the victory of freedom of inquiry and of truth for its own sake; and a bullet through the heart of the egalitarian-socialist project. But there is a third reason as well: as a powerful defense of the results of the free market. If and when we as populists and libertarians abolish the welfare state in all of its aspects, and property rights and the free market shall be triumphant once more, many individuals and groups will predictably not like the end result. In that case, those ethnic and other groups who might be concentrated in lower-income or less prestigious occupations, guided by their socialistic mentors, will predictably raise the cry that free-market capitalism is evil and "discriminatory" and that therefore collectivism is needed to redress the balance. In that case, the intelligence argument will become useful to defend the market economy and the free society from ignorant or self-serving attacks. In short; racialist science is properly not an act of aggression or a cover for oppression of one group over another, but, on the contrary, an operation in defense of private property against assaults by aggressors. (From Rothbard's review of 'Herrnstein and Murray's 'The Bell Curve'')



    If you REALLY think Lew and Murray are racists, it's clear that you've let others do your thinking for you. I pity thee.
    You have never been able to think on your own but grab for you copy of rothbard if questioned to think. The pity is two ways.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    You know what the taxpayers have paid RP about 4.5 million dollars in 30 years, has the government gotten smaller since we paid him all that money? Just the facts man. Just what freedoms has RP given you or what part of the govenment has gotten smaller? Just the facts man. Just the facts!
    Hmmmm. I don't see the correlation. Help me out...

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox McCloud View Post
    Even if they're the most hardcore racist on the face of the planet, it doesn't necessarily make their arguments any less valid---if the world's worst serial killer stated "the sun warms the planet with its solar rays", it doesn't necessarily mean its false, purely because of his reputation; we still have to attack his argument, and not the person presenting it, elsewise we're engaging in ad hominem which is...pretty much what Klamath, here, has done.

    I would like to point out, however, that the Mises Institute is not libertarian, per se; economics is value free, that is to say, it doesn't tell people which decision are the right ones, merely what the cause of such policies is; that said, considering that most people desire good end results, well, it leads a lot of Austrians to libertarianism. I hate to nitpick and split hairs, but this is just one of the many fallacies used against the Mises Institute on the internet (can't trust them, they just fit theory to their libertarian beliefs!) in their attempt to discredit them.
    Naw I have sat around from about the time this forum started listening to people attack Reagan personally and politically. This place is quit populated with ad hominen attackers. They don't take very kindly to their own methods being turned against them. Lew and Rothbard tried to form their stupid little racist coalition, but you know want when the boots hit the ground the government still got bigger the budgets still got bigger. FAILURES.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    You have never been able to think on your own but grab for you copy of rothbard if questioned to think. The pity is two ways.
    Not so. I have demonstrated my own thought regularly (perhaps you don't follow my posts?). I rarely quote Rothbard because I disagree with him on a number of things (again, you apparently don't read many of my posts). Had you actually read the post you quoted, you know that I only quoted Rothbard to point out what his critics tend to cite to attack him. This is legitimate use of a quote, not regurgitating his work.

    You need not pity, because there is nothing to pity me about.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 02-06-2011 at 10:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danke View Post
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  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    You know what the taxpayers have paid RP about 4.5 million dollars in 30 years, has the government gotten smaller since we paid him all that money? Just the facts man. Just what freedoms has RP given you or what part of the govenment has gotten smaller? Just the facts man. Just the facts!
    Indeed. That's one of the reasons that in-system activism doesn't fundamentally change anything. I totally agree with you here. However, if your goal is just education in hopes that someday someone will act on it, I suppose you could say that RP is a success.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 02-06-2011 at 10:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danke View Post
    I carry my man purse for fashion, not function.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    You know what the taxpayers have paid RP about 4.5 million dollars in 30 years, has the government gotten smaller since we paid him all that money? Just the facts man. Just what freedoms has RP given you or what part of the govenment has gotten smaller? Just the facts man. Just the facts!
    Are you that daft? If Ron Paul had the power of veto as a Congressman the size of the Government would be vastly smaller. I cannot believe you are trying to equivocate the Presidency with a House of Representatives seat.
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui même

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

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    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010 View Post
    Hmmmm. I don't see the correlation. Help me out...
    Reagan was one man, RP is one man. They both tried to accomplish the goal of smaller governments by their own methods. Reagan tried to compromise more while RP compromised less. Neither man could overcome the majority of the ameican people WANTING bigger governments. Neither method worked. RP tried to get elected president twice and senator once. The american people rejected him. Convincing the American people to reduce the size of government is a task both men failed at. Though Reagan won the presidency the American people gave two thirds of the rest of the government to the people that wanted to preserve the safety net. (as it was called back then.)
    If you try and judge Reagan by what he accomplished then we must judge RP by what he has accomplished. Reagan had a vision and RP has a vision to reduce the size of government and for that I commend them but am I more free now than when either was elected to government. NO.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    Are you that daft? If Ron Paul had the power of veto as a Congressman the size of the Government would be vastly smaller. I cannot believe you are trying to equivocate the Presidency with a House of Representatives seat.
    But he was never elected now was he. Personally I am less free because RP failed to build a coalition big enough to accomplish anything and him attacking Reagan will continue to see those coalitions will never be built.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Reagan was one man.........tried to accomplish the goal of smaller government
    "Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken

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  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Not so. I have demonstrated my own thought regularly (perhaps you don't follow my posts?). I rarely quote Rothbard because I disagree with him on a number of things (again, you apparently don't read many of my posts). Had you actually read the post you quoted, you know that I only quoted Rothbard to point out what his critics tend to cite to attack him. This is legitimate use of a quote, not regurgitating his work.

    You need not pity, because there is nothing to pity me about.
    Well rest assured there is nothing to pity about me.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  13. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Indeed. That's one of the reasons that in-system activism doesn't fundamentally change anything. I totally agree with you here. However, if your goal is just education in hopes that someday someone will act on it, I suppose you could say that RP is a success.
    Naw we are measuring sucess by whether the government has gotten smaller. Ah last time I checked, No.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    But he was never elected now was he. Personally I am less free because RP failed to build a coalition big enough to accomplish anything and him attacking Reagan will continue to see those coalitions will never be built.
    Why didn't Reagan ever use his veto? The man hardly vetoed anything. That tells me all I need to know about his so-called convictions. You making excuses changes the truth not one iota. I am more convinced Gary Johnson is vastly more limited-Government oriented than Reagan because he used his veto so many times on a democrat-led Legislature. His record stands for itself. Why didn't Reagan have any conviction? I think it can be solidly said that Reagan spoke a nice rhetorical game, but he didn't believe in hardly any of it. Also, Reagan ratcheted up the War on Drugs. That was one of his major planks, same with hugely empowering and enlarging the MIC.

    Besides, all I need to know in this discussion is your equivocating the Presidency with one House seat. Good lord. You need some better arguments.

    PS: Do you even know where that Jefferson quote came from? I doubt it.
    Last edited by Austrian Econ Disciple; 02-06-2011 at 11:05 PM.
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui même

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

    www.mises.org
    www.antiwar.com
    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Naw we are measuring sucess by whether the government has gotten smaller. Ah last time I checked, No.
    Not just that, as I said, but that's one factor. Since Constitutionalists tend to argue that their stance (that is "strict adherence to the Constitution" or a variant of that) will beget smaller government, this seems a legitimate measure.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 02-06-2011 at 11:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
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  16. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    Why didn't Reagan ever use his veto? The man hardly vetoed anything. That tells me all I need to know about his so-called convictions. You making excuses changes the truth not one iota. I am more convinced Gary Johnson is vastly more limited-Government oriented than Reagan because he used his veto so many times on a democrat-led Legislature. His record stands for itself. Why didn't Reagan have any conviction? I think it can be solidly said that Reagan spoke a nice rhetorical game, but he didn't believe in hardly any of it.

    Besides, all I need to know in this discussion is your equivocating the Presidency with one House seat. Good lord. You need some better arguments.

    PS: Do you even know where that Jefferson quote came from? I doubt it.
    That Jefferson quote comes from the idiots that quote it every time they think a violent revolution os the way to go. Most of them being Chickenhawks as will.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  17. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    That Jefferson quote comes from the idiots that quote it every time they think a violent revolution os the way to go. Most of them being Chickenhawks as will.
    That didn't answer my question. It appears you do not know. Also, would you try and address my post, and not just selectively answer the last part.
    Last edited by Austrian Econ Disciple; 02-06-2011 at 11:10 PM.
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui même

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

    www.mises.org
    www.antiwar.com
    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)

  18. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Personally I am less free because RP failed to build a coalition big enough to accomplish anything and him attacking Reagan will continue to see those coalitions will never be built.
    Are you trolling?

  19. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshLowry View Post
    Are you trolling? WTF...
    Obvious, ain't it?
    "Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken

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  20. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Naw we are measuring sucess by whether the government has gotten smaller. Ah last time I checked, No.
    It's going to take time. It might not even be possible.

    At least RP did something instead of nothing.

  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshLowry View Post
    Are you trolling?
    Sorry Josh but there has been a large number of libertarian posters attacking Reagan and bringing up up every bad thing RP says about Reagan. Is this the way to go into a GOP dominated convention??
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  22. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshlowry View Post
    at least rp didn't double the size of government
    ftfy
    "Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken

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    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt


  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshLowry View Post
    It's going to take time. It might not even be possible.

    At least RP did something instead of nothing.
    That is exactly the point, Reagan tried and failed so we just regroup and try again but attacking those that tried and failed in the past will accomplish nothing.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  24. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    That is exactly the point, Reagan tried and failed so we just regroup and try again but attacking those that tried and failed in the past will accomplish nothing.
    To an extent, yes. However, we can examine the failures of Reagan and learn from those past mistakes, which is the point of the Reagan criticism around here (from what I've read since I joined-though I admit I haven't read it all).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
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  25. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    That is exactly the point, Reagan tried and failed so we just regroup and try again but attacking those that tried and failed in the past will accomplish nothing.
    What do you mean he tried? You refuse to recognize reality. Reagan vetoed something like 10 bills in his 8 years. He didn't try jack squat. He accomplished exactly what he wanted. Enlarge the Federal Government.

    For gods sake...the man signed the 1986 Gun Bill which outlawed ownership of automatic weapons! Give me a damn break Klamath.
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui même

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

    www.mises.org
    www.antiwar.com
    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)

  26. #55
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    Rand, Ron and Gary have all learned from Reagan's mistakes. Lessons have been learned. No reason to dwell on this.

    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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  27. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Rand, Ron and Gary have all learned from Reagan's mistakes. Lessons have been learned. No reason to dwell on this.
    Right, but the vast majority of conservatives are deluded in thinking Reagan was a fiscal hawk.

    EDIT: BTW, hopefully an unsuspecting conservative will open up this thread and get a point of view they've not considered yet. It happened to all of us at some time
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 02-07-2011 at 12:59 AM.

  28. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Reagan was one man, RP is one man. They both tried to accomplish the goal of smaller governments by their own methods. Reagan tried to compromise more while RP compromised less. Neither man could overcome the majority of the ameican people WANTING bigger governments. Neither method worked. RP tried to get elected president twice and senator once. The american people rejected him. Convincing the American people to reduce the size of government is a task both men failed at. Though Reagan won the presidency the American people gave two thirds of the rest of the government to the people that wanted to preserve the safety net. (as it was called back then.)
    If you try and judge Reagan by what he accomplished then we must judge RP by what he has accomplished. Reagan had a vision and RP has a vision to reduce the size of government and for that I commend them but am I more free now than when either was elected to government. NO.
    The Office of President has a lot more power in a single person than does Congress, which is distributed, in nature, so the argument is not an apples to apples comparison---if Ron Paul were to ever get elected, then we could make a fair comparison. I'd also point out that that Reagan's compromising is precisely why people here attack him so much--yes, there was as Democrat congress that could over-ride his veto, but ultimately he could still veto a bill that didn't agree with his philosophy.

  29. #58

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    BTW....
    In regards to the OP: Ron Reagan's accounts of his father seem to jive with Rothbard's, FWIW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danke View Post
    I carry my man purse for fashion, not function.

  30. #59

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    There are a lot of us who admired Reagan. He helped my family a lot. He was the one who help destroy the communists and the east German wall was destroyed. He was against abortion. He didn't go back to Beirut after the marines were killed. He out weights his faults.
    I just wish Ron Paul hadn't said that the revolution was a failure. Too many people like Reagan. I love Ron and agree with everything he does always but that hurt.

  31. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    That Jefferson quote comes from the idiots that quote it every time they think a violent revolution os the way to go. Most of them being Chickenhawks as will.
    Actually it was Jefferson's response on his return from France when the Federalists freaked the fuck out after Shay's Rebellion and said they needed to scrap the Articles of Confederation and create a stronger federal government to prevent such domestic events. Jefferson just shrugged it off and said pretty much that a violent uprising is healthy for a republic in his opinion. Jefferson was strongly against the creation of the Constitution because it centralized the decentralized Confederation.

    Troll needs to go back to troll school.
    Last edited by Vessol; 02-07-2011 at 12:24 PM.
    "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."-Étienne de La Boétie

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