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Thread: Stef Molyneux's Critique on Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

  1. #1

    Stef Molyneux's Critique on Zeitgeist: Moving Forward





    Last edited by eOs; 02-03-2011 at 11:42 AM.
    “You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
    To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."



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  3. #2
    Excellent analysis as always from him. Sounds like the film has some positives, but also has some ridiculous negatives, such as the planned obsolescence conspiracy, which I agree sounds like they have not gotten close to reading the opposition and might as well not know Austrian Economics exists... Which would be kind of strange that the film makers hadn't heard of it considering that A-Econ shares a great deal of their perspective on the banking system. And damn they even mention Mises and completely misrepresent him?

    Marxism with robots! lol

  4. #3
    This movie is all over the place.
    my blog http://www.libertyleak.com

    and for your pleasure the intro to the Twilight Zone

    YouTube - Twilight Zone Season 1 intro

  5. #4
    He says the same thing at the end that i say to my roommate.. they should totally go for it, and try it if they want. Of course it will only work in a free society where they are allowed to go off and live on their Zeitgeist cloud, with no money, "begging for their porridge each morning from HAL" or something along those lines..

    But I also try and point out the same things he does about planned economies and misinterpretations of the free market.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #5
    I liked most of that.

    Somehow I'm beginning to think that the people at the Venus project will do whatever they can, peaceful or not. They have to have all of the world's resources to do this stuff. They don't really have any other choice but to do it (get there) by violence.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenB4Liberty View Post
    I liked most of that.

    Somehow I'm beginning to think that the people at the Venus project will do whatever they can, peaceful or not. They have to have all of the world's resources to do this stuff. They don't really have any other choice but to do it (get there) by violence.
    There's a violent element within the Venus Project. They view natural resources as the common heritage of Humanity. So some of them DO support taking resources from their neighbor's property to share with the community.

  8. #7

  9. #8



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  11. #9

  12. #10
    I used to support the venus project until I researched it more thoroughly. I remember listening to Peter Joseph during one of his radio briefings where he answers questions and there was one particular question where a viewer asks if there will be police implemented in this new society? How else do they plan on detaining violent offenders? Throw them free flowers? Anyway, peter's answer shocked me. He said that he didn't even KNOW whether or not there would be a police system needed in order to temporarily detain people. He said something along the lines of "Well, I guess in those instances, there would need to be some sort of police system implemented". So the guy making the film isn't even aware of all the full details and whether or not there would need to be involuntary force implemented in this new society.

    Another point that drew me away even further: Everything needs to be shared. They do not recognize property rights and believe people should have access to everything like a public library but should return whatever they used back to where it came from. Isn't this basically communism with a different twist?

    But anyway, I enjoyed Addendum for awhile until I researched it more thoroughly and the 3rd one is great in the beginning when they go into detail about nature vs. nurture, but it all goes downhill from there. Stef gave a great review here, it would be interesting to see him debate peter joseph.
    Only voted for Ron Paul and Trump in 28 years of living because I greatly respect honest men/women who expose disgusting illusions.

  13. #11
    Stefan's review follows very closely to what my thoughts were when I watched it.

    I, however, do have reservations as stated before me if their system is truly voluntary. Especially considering their complete disregard for property.
    "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."-Étienne de La Boétie

  14. #12
    As this series of movies goes on, the time that the $#@! hits the fan strikes earlier and earlier. By the time the fourth movie comes around, methinks it'll be a visual and aural sewer.

  15. #13
    Roommate watched the review and disagreed with all of the rebuttals.

    His primary concern:

    Competition leads to state power
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #14
    Tell your roommate to join one of Stefs live shows and debate him on it. Stef is always willing to listen and debate and be proven wrong.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    I used to support the venus project until I researched it more thoroughly. I remember listening to Peter Joseph during one of his radio briefings where he answers questions and there was one particular question where a viewer asks if there will be police implemented in this new society? How else do they plan on detaining violent offenders? Throw them free flowers? Anyway, peter's answer shocked me. He said that he didn't even KNOW whether or not there would be a police system needed in order to temporarily detain people. He said something along the lines of "Well, I guess in those instances, there would need to be some sort of police system implemented". So the guy making the film isn't even aware of all the full details and whether or not there would need to be involuntary force implemented in this new society.

    Another point that drew me away even further: Everything needs to be shared. They do not recognize property rights and believe people should have access to everything like a public library but should return whatever they used back to where it came from. Isn't this basically communism with a different twist?

    But anyway, I enjoyed Addendum for awhile until I researched it more thoroughly and the 3rd one is great in the beginning when they go into detail about nature vs. nurture, but it all goes downhill from there. Stef gave a great review here, it would be interesting to see him debate peter joseph.
    Peter Joseph annoys the hell out of me and I haven't had the desire to see anymore of his films past the first Zeitgeist.

    He did an interview about how he hates secrets and likes to divulge them, yet he loves his secrets, and wouldn't discuss some of them and was pissed at the interviewer for trying to find them out.
    As long as you let government spend your money, they will always spend it on those who lobby for it over those who vote for it because they lied to you to get it, and they will spend it on those who best enable them to keep lying and spending your money.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    As this series of movies goes on, the time that the $#@! hits the fan strikes earlier and earlier. By the time the fourth movie comes around, methinks it'll be a visual and aural sewer.
    Exactly. The first one was pretty solid throughout, the second one screwed the pooch about 1 hour in, this one took about 40 minutes before all the nonsense about the free market started! I'm sure the 4th one will start off with someone saying that the free market=slavery!



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  20. #17
    Stef gave a great review here, it would be interesting to see him debate peter joseph.
    Stef did a critique on ZG Addendum, and he used some ad hominem attacks on Peter Joseph. PJ then made a video responding to Stef's comments, and unfortunately PJ looked better even though he was wrong, because he focused on Stef essentially calling him "retarded". It's worth searching youtube for these videos, because Stef's critique is factually correct, but he really screwed up by using the personal/ad hominem attacks.
    Last edited by Fredom101; 01-30-2011 at 11:47 AM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredom101 View Post
    Stef did a critique on ZG Addendum, and he used some ad hominem attacks on Peter Joseph. PJ then made a video responding to Stef's comments, and unfortunately PJ looked better even though he was wrong, because he focused on Stef essentially calling him "retarded". It's worth searching youtube for these videos, because Stef's critique is factually correct, but he really screwed up by using the personal/ad hominem attacks.
    Did he actually attack PJ? As I remember it, he was attacking the ideas as being retarded, not any person in particular. Maybe I'm mistaken.

    Either way, he could've articulated that in a bit more respectful manner for sure. It definitely did give them an excuse to just write off his valid arguments without thinking about them.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Roommate watched the review and disagreed with all of the rebuttals.
    I'm shocked.

    His primary concern:

    Competition leads to state power
    The hubris in that statement is astounding. The logical conclusion of what he said, is something I've always suspected of Zeitgeisters. They don't want any competition on their ideas. "My ideas are right, I understand how to solve all of the worlds problems, and all of your competing ideas are wrong and shouldnt even be allowed to exist."

    How are we supposed to determine the effectiveness of ideas and resources, without somethign to compare them to? Comparison is a competition.


    How exactly do they plan on eliminating the competitive nature of humans and technological advancement? I don't see how it's possible without coercion/statism....
    Last edited by ClayTrainor; 01-30-2011 at 04:03 PM.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor View Post
    How are we supposed to determine the effectiveness of ideas and resources, without somethign to compare them to? Comparison is a competition.
    Good argument. They'll probably say 'science', but I'm not sure that science can obtain the true value of something.


    Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor View Post
    How exactly do they plan on eliminating the competitive nature of humans and technological advancement? I don't see how it's possible without coercion/statism....
    They want to do it through a consciousness revolution.
    Last edited by dannno; 01-30-2011 at 04:08 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Good argument. They'll probably say 'science', but I'm not sure that science can obtain the true value of something.
    Even the scientific method by it's very nature is competitive. The idea is to test competing theories to see which one fits best with the evidence...

    If there is no competition on scientific theories, doesn't that just mean we already know all the right answers in science?

    They want to do it through a consciousness revolution.
    I support a conscious revolution that rejects coercion... but competition???? I just can't understand why they'd want to get rid such a thing, int he first place... to be perfectly honest. Competition is a beautiful thing, which almost always leads to progress and a further understanding of the world around us, so long as coercion is absent from it.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor View Post
    Did he actually attack PJ? As I remember it, he was attacking the ideas as being retarded, not any person in particular. Maybe I'm mistaken.

    Either way, he could've articulated that in a bit more respectful manner for sure. It definitely did give them an excuse to just write off his valid arguments without thinking about them.
    I'd have to go back and watch again, but I think Stef was saying things like "you'd have to be retarded to believe that", which is an ad hominem. I appreciate Stef's vast work but he can get into attack mode sometimes and it doesn't serve him.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredom101 View Post
    I'd have to go back and watch again, but I think Stef was saying things like "you'd have to be retarded to believe that", which is an ad hominem. I appreciate Stef's vast work but he can get into attack mode sometimes and it doesn't serve him.
    Yea, I agree. I'm guilty of the same kind of behavior myself at times, and need to make a sincere conscious effort to correct it.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  27. #24
    Does anybody remember the clip of Stef that was posted fairly recently where he talks about how it wouldn't be beneficial for corporations to create their own armies to oppress their competition because they would have to raise their prices to invest in the armies and it would make people upset at the corporation itself and they would stop supporting them?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Does anybody remember the clip of Stef that was posted fairly recently where he talks about how it wouldn't be beneficial for corporations to create their own armies to oppress their competition because they would have to raise their prices to invest in the armies and it would make people upset at the corporation itself and they would stop supporting them?
    Not sure of the clip but he talks about this for an entire chapter in Practical Anarchy on his site.
    Last edited by Flash; 01-30-2011 at 05:25 PM.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Does anybody remember the clip of Stef that was posted fairly recently where he talks about how it wouldn't be beneficial for corporations to create their own armies to oppress their competition because they would have to raise their prices to invest in the armies and it would make people upset at the corporation itself and they would stop supporting them?
    It's discussed in this interview at some point.. can't remember exactly when. This might be a worthwhile one to get your room mate to watch. Cveitch comes from the a sort of anarcho-communist/syndicalist/socialist/whatever school of thought, I believe, but is really open minded to alternative arguments and asks really really good questions.

    Last edited by ClayTrainor; 01-30-2011 at 05:42 PM.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor View Post
    It's discussed in this interview at some point.. can't remember exactly when. This might be a worthwhile one to get your room mate to watch. Cveitch comes from the a sort of anarcho-communist/syndicalist/socialist/whatever school of thought, I believe, but is really open minded to alternative arguments and asks really really good questions.

    Wow, ya, that's the one.. I actually wanted my roommate to watch this as he became enthralled with the Love Police guy a couple weeks ago and posted it on his facebook.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  32. #28
    Here's peter joseph's response to stefan's critique of the movie. I can only hope that this triggers a live conversation between these 2.

    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor View Post
    Here's peter joseph's response to stefan's critique of the movie. I can only hope that this triggers a live conversation between these 2.

    His fundamental premise (that a "poor person" is "trapped by the system" of the free market) is fundamentally flawed. In a free market, a person can CREATE his own prosperity by innovating and creating products/services from scratch to meet market demand. (plus, there hasn't been a truly free market in many generations) I only watched the intro, but I can see that from this false premise he will only end up in complete FAIL by the end of the vid. Thanks for posting, tho.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  34. #30
    "This is a global movement, there is no isolation...We WILL have an economic system based on tangible resources and not monetary systems..the paradigm is over..you just wait and see...this system is a self-mutating cancer and it's time the immune system stands up to take it down"

    Sounds like he pretty much threw the idea of this being a voluntary peaceful movement out the $#@!ing window right quick. They'll have their Zeitgeist society, with the point of a gun pointed at our heads if we refuse.

    I only skimmed the last part. He attacks Stefan for calling the Zeitgeist movement Marxist, but he never refutes how the Zeitgeist movement isn't Marxist. It's central planning, no matter how you cut it, that's Marxism.
    Last edited by Vessol; 01-31-2011 at 01:02 AM.
    "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."-Étienne de La Boétie

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