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Thread: 1903 six HP steam engine powers modern off grid power system

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    Fascinating thread guys, I never knew Steam power was still around, and for that matter, that it was actually practical!
    This is one of the reasons I don't buy the peak oil hysteria. The industrial revolution was well under way before oil undercut (or killed with politics) all other energy sources. In fact, nuclear energy is really just steam with a new heat source.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitMan View Post
    Fascinating thread guys, I never knew Steam power was still around, and for that matter, that it was actually practical!
    Steam is alive and well. What do you think drives the generators at coal/oil fired electrical plants? Nukes?
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    This is one of the reasons I don't buy the peak oil hysteria.
    In terms of energy source, I may agree. In other terms I am not so sure. If peak oil is a fact, then we can look forward to famine and disease. Almost all our fertilizers and most pharmaceuticals come from petroleum.

    Also, a return to life without plastics will not be pleasant.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    In terms of energy source, I may agree. In other terms I am not so sure. If peak oil is a fact, then we can look forward to famine and disease. Almost all our fertilizers and most pharmaceuticals come from petroleum.

    Also, a return to life without plastics will not be pleasant.
    Hemp for Victory Baby this is our answer bottom line!! a strong majority of products today would be made out of hemp, anything plastic based basically. This is why marijuana is illegal!! we have to stop the 75 yrs of lies on marijuana and industrial hemp ,cannabis sativa !!!
    2016 gop est business as usual, rules do not apply.



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  7. #65
    Not to derail this thread... nonetheless... Hemp for Victory!
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Not to derail this thread... nonetheless... Hemp for Victory!
    yeah i love the idea of making a steam engine,just lack the $$$$$$$!! back on topic of course you could burn your left over marijuana stalk and materials in your steam boiler
    2016 gop est business as usual, rules do not apply.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    In terms of energy source, I may agree. In other terms I am not so sure. If peak oil is a fact, then we can look forward to famine and disease. Almost all our fertilizers and most pharmaceuticals come from petroleum.

    Also, a return to life without plastics will not be pleasant.
    Chemical fertilizer is great for producing massive quantitites of unhealthy food in an unsustainable way. Same for pesticides. A transition to locally-grown, organic, open-pollinated crops will be good for us in the long run. But the transition will not be without pain.

    The majority of pharmaceuticals are useless or worse. Most of those that are valuable can be derived from natural sources.

    Are you really going to bemoan the loss of PLASTIC? Wow. I hate plastic. There is very little made of plastic that cannot be made more durable, more beautiful, and less toxic from wood, glass, ceramic, or metal.

    But I guess I am a 1900 kind of guy.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  10. #68

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Chemical fertilizer is great for producing massive quantitites of unhealthy food in an unsustainable way. Same for pesticides. A transition to locally-grown, organic, open-pollinated crops will be good for us in the long run. But the transition will not be without pain.
    Sort of beside the point, though. We ARE using chemical fertilizers and are making very little effort not to. Also, though the food may be shyte, it still keeps people fed. If the food production drops by 60% suddenly, lots of people will go hungry and lots of those will starve, which in turn leads to unpleasantness like rioting and war. We are in a corner. How to extricate ourselves? Some people get it - most do not.

    The majority of pharmaceuticals are useless or worse. Most of those that are valuable can be derived from natural sources.
    Do you have a source for this assertion? Sulfa drugs come from oil and coal. Many ABX do as well. These are not useless. Whence springeth Viagra, I cannot say.

    Are you really going to bemoan the loss of PLASTIC?
    I am not bemoaning anything. I am simply stating what will be.

    Wow. I hate plastic.
    Hate is a very strong word. I certainly do not hate plastic. Without them, much of what is good in our lives would be impossible. Yeah, they have entries in the negative column as well. Everything has a price. Whether that price is fair... that is a matter of individual opinion.

    There is very little made of plastic that cannot be made more durable, more beautiful, and less toxic from wood, glass, ceramic, or metal.
    This is actually very incorrect. There are some applications for which plastics are the ONLY viable solution, but let us not even dwell on that.
    But I guess I am a 1900 kind of guy.
    If tomorrow you were forced, and I mean FORCED to live this Luddite vision, I predict that within a year, assuming you lived that long, you would sell your mother to a brothel in exchange for a return to the here and now.

    Consider a simple padlock. You need one. You get in your car and go to the store and pay $5 and have your lock. If you want a really good one, maybe you pay $45. Now go back to the good old days. You need a lock. You get in your wagon, after you feed the horses, muck the stalls, harness them up, and then ride 3 hours to go the 15 miles into town where you find the local blacksmith who can make you the lock in about a week at a cost of about $700 (if you have never made a padlock - a good one - you do not know how much work it is. Trust me, it is a lot. In town there is horse $#@! everywhere. It stinks to heaven. We coudl go on, but perhaps the point is clear?

    Many people hold a romantic view of the "good old days". They were not that good in many, many respects. In some others, they were better. Everything has its costs. This hopelessly naive opinion that so many hold of the virtues of a return to the 18th century bucolic life are perhaps born of contemporary stresses. This is understandable, but falling for the phony baloney nonsense that, say, movies such as Avatar vomit forth in such fecund abundance is not wise. People want what has never been and never can be.

    My grandma lived the life to which you allude. Her life was rock hard and I'd bet money I don't have that you would not want to live that way. She knew how to raise it, kill it, cook it. She still welcomed modern medicines and considered them great blessings because common diseases, those to which we no longer give the proper respect, used to kill people on a grand scale. Children died at rates that would make many people today ill to think of it. In so many ways the life you mention was hard and wretched and $#@! came out of nowhere and it did not matter whether you were dirt poor or choking on wealth - death came out of nowhere and took you suddenly. If that is what you want, by all means get off at Willoughby. There is much of this modern world that I find of questionable merit, but there is also a lot that I would not wish to do without if I had my druthers.
    Last edited by osan; 05-07-2011 at 10:10 PM.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    If tomorrow you were forced, and I mean FORCED to live this Luddite vision, I predict that within a year, assuming you lived that long, you would sell your mother to a brothel in exchange for a return to the here and now.
    Wow, how to approach this...

    Listen, your points are valid and powerful, much about the "good old days" wasn't very good at all.

    But I do question this technological terror we've created for ourselves. Consider your point about the advances in medicine that helped, in literally 100 years, slay that stalking specter of death you were alluding to, that people up to that point had to always be on the lookout for.

    But in exchange is the knowledge that, in labs all around the world, there are "bugs" being worked on with the very latest in scientific and technical knowledge, that, if ever released, on purpose or "accidentally", would wipe **** sapiens sapiens from the face of the earth.

    Or the advances in communication technology, it was only 100 years ago or so that spark gap Morse code transmitters were invented. Compare that to the wireless network all around us and the great leaps in prosperity that has brought.

    While at the very same time, that same technology has now created a surveillance matrix that can, quite literally, cover the globe. It will only be a matter of 20 years or so, before there will be no corner of the planet outside the reach of global big brother and his systems of monitoring and control of every single human being on the face of the earth.

    The simple joy of looking up at the night sky and gazing upon the heavens has been taken from me, since, while I am looking up, I know in my mind that there are innumerable tools of god knows what government agencies, always looking down at me.

    Certainly, there are some people that have an unrealistic view of the "bucolic existence" that past generations may have had, certainly, for most people, then, as it is for most people on the planet now, life was "hard, brutish, nasty and short". The idyll that is in most people's mind comes from literature that was written by, or from the perspective of people, enjoying what the Romans used to call "otium": perfect leisure, provided for by servants, slaves, and huge amounts of liquid cash.

    They could gaze out at cows in a serene field, they didn't have to get up at 0400 to milk them.

    I've experienced the same thing, people gazing wistfully at scenes of fishermen like myself, mending nets on the dock, never considering how that net got torn up in the first place, during a storm in the middle of the night while hung up on rocks, destroying your gear and your catch in the bargain.

    I'm well aware of the scars and damage done by "living close to the earth", I've been doing it all my life, and am paying the price in aches, pains and ailments now, in my later years.

    But, all things carefully considered, while perhaps I would not want to take my chances in 1800, honestly, I think I could live quite comfortably in 1900.

    I'll cheerfully accept the sobriquet of "Luddite" for that.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 05-08-2011 at 01:42 PM.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  13. #71

  14. #72
    Anti-

    Sounds like you still would like to put some of the blame on the tools instead of the wielders of the tools.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    Anti-

    Sounds like you still would like to put some of the blame on the tools instead of the wielders of the tools.
    Guilty I suppose.

    There are just some "tools" that I cannot fathom or justify, race specific, 100 percent mortality bioweapons for example or implanted RFID tracking chips.

    There's very little or no "upside".

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Wow, how to approach this...

    Listen, your points are valid and powerful, much about the "good old days" wasn't very good at all.

    But I do question this technological terror we've created for ourselves.
    We do not disagree, but also recall my point that EVERYTHING has a cost. There are no exceptions to this. Ever.

    That said, overall where would you rather be? Here, now - or then? I would refrain from answering quickly. This is the sort of question that should take a good long time to sink in and the possible answers given careful consideration.

    Go back 1000 years. Flu, broken bones, minor puncture wounds... all could be fatal or brutally maiming events. Consider human relationships: you are a smallish woman and the person bearing upon you is a large male brute. The chances you will prevail are just this side of none.

    Return to now: flu is still dangerous, but can most often be weathered - far more so than back in the day. Broken bones suck, but typical breaks are mended with no lasting ill effects. A little neosporin and a bandaid renders most small punctures readily healed. A small frame .357 magnum pistol neutralizes the brute's great advantage in mass and strength, reducing the tete-a-tete to a contest of attitudes.

    No doubt the prices we have paid have been high. In some cases, too high I agree. But what shall we do? We are where we are and a return to earlier times is perhaps not an option for the world at large. There are now WAY too many people to be able to return to the lifestyle of 1900, much less 1800 or earlier. The only reason the world sustains this many human beings is our technology. The food may not be as nutritious as it was, but we produce a hell of a lot more of it. We could never produce such yields without modern methods. That went on long enough, in conjunction with advances in medical practice, to allow the population to swell to what is now approaching 8 billion souls. Cut off the mass agriculture and half the world would be dead within a year, guaranteed. Organic means simply cannot provide the volumes required, and here I do not mean the organic in the usual commercial sense.

    Consider your point about the advances in medicine that helped, in literally 100 years, slay that stalking specter of death you were alluding to, that people up to that point had to always be on the lookout for.

    But in exchange is the knowledge that, in labs all around the world, there are "bugs" being worked on with the very latest in scientific and technical knowledge, that, if ever released, on purpose or "accidentally", would wipe **** sapiens sapiens from the face of the earth.
    This is not a problem of the technology, but of the human animal. This is the product of several factors that, taken as a whole, can produce truly horrific results.

    Or the advances in communication technology, it was only 100 years ago or so that spark gap Morse code transmitters were invented. Compare that to the wireless network all around us and the great leaps in prosperity that has brought.

    While at the very same time, that same technology has now created a surveillance matrix that can, quite literally, cover the globe. It will only be a matter of 20 years or so, before there will be no corner of the planet outside the reach of global big brother and his systems of monitoring and control of every single human being on the face of the earth.

    The simple joy of looking up at the night sky and gazing upon the heavens has been taken from me, since, while I am looking up, I know in my mind that there are innumerable tools of god knows what government agencies, always looking down at me.

    Certainly, there are some people that have an unrealistic view of the "bucolic existence" that past generations may have had, certainly, for most people, then, as it is for most people on the planet now, life was "hard, brutish, nasty and short". The idyll that is in most people's mind comes from literature that was written by, or from the perspective of people, enjoying what the Romans used to call "otium": perfect leisure, provided for by servants, slaves, and huge amounts of liquid cash.

    They could gaze out at cows in a serene field, they didn't have to get up at 0400 to milk them.
    You make my point in a backhanded way. Generally, people desire what they do not have and do not understand. I raise livestock and it is a $#@!ing pain in the ass. I may even give it up, especially now that my wife will be undergoing chemotherapy and the changes this stands to bring to our lives.

    People are well intentioned dumbasses. They mean well, but have not the means of doing good. This is largely because they think simplistic solutions for everyone are the answer. One size does NOT fit all. The sooner we come to grips with this, the sooner we can save ourselves a trip back in time to the days of the cave man.

    But, all things carefully considered, while perhaps I would not want to take my chances in 1800, honestly, I think I could live quite comfortably in 1900.

    I'll cheerfully accept the sobriquet of "Luddite" for that.
    1900?!! I don't know how old you are, but I lived in NYC at the end of the industrial era. It was FILTHY - hell, the Hudson is still murky, but in those days, entering that water could get you killed. The stench in NJ along the Pulaski skyway was tremendous and the statistical distribution of cases of lung disease in such places was skewed significantly. The Meadowlands has sixty thousand tons of mercury dumped there - all from that era. 1900 was filth and pollution and death and disease running rampant. Not only did you have the classical threats as listed above in part, you had the aggravating factors of horrific poisoning of the local environment. you'd be better off in 1800 as the medical practice was about the same and the great $#@!ting on the environment had yet to begin.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  18. #75
    does anyone know how much torque those tesla turbines are capable of?
    it seems like a big stream tank (like in the first post/pic) and a few efficient tesla turbines, pair with alternators might be able to produce a good amount of power.

    i would also like to see a tesla turbine combined with a magnetic cog ( cog info here ) as this seems to reduce the losses with pulleys/gears.

    i am/have been working on a mini newman motor as well as a way to capture the back EMF, but havent really messed with it in awhile...
    great topic btw

  19. #76
    "People are well intentioned dumbasses. They mean well, but have not the means of doing good. This is largely because they think simplistic solutions for everyone are the answer. One size does NOT fit all. The sooner we come to grips with this, the sooner we can save ourselves a trip back in time to the days of the cave man." Osan


    Exactly! ;-)
    Last edited by buenijo; 07-13-2014 at 02:43 PM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  20. #77
    Just sharing more thoughts on steam power. I emphasize (again) my opinion that a small steam system can work for powering a small off grid home, but only if certain conditions are met. These conditions include:
    1. Fueled by a wide range of biomass with minimal processing requirements (i.e. stick wood, split wood, shredded pine needles, paper shred, lawn clippings, etc.)
    2. Low and constant output for extended periods at low speed. Low speed reduces wear on engine. Constant low output simplifies #3.
    3. Put the waste heat from the steam system to full use. Hot combustion gases from the furnace can dry fuel. Steam exhausted from engine can heat home, heat water, dry food, pasteurize (water, milk, beer, fruit preserves, etc.), dry clothes (hey, why not?), and provide air conditioning*.
    4. The system must be devised for extended and UNATTENDED operation. An old school system that requires one to baby sit the boiler is a nonstarter. The system is best served by a gasification furnace similar to those on wood gasification boiler systems that use seasoned fire wood as fuel.
    5. Must use a compact monotube steam generator as opposed to a boiler.

    One major benefit of this kind of system is often overlooked. A system that operates for extended periods at low power, and on demand like a small steam system, can allow a much smaller battery system to be used as compared to other off grid configurations. This can save literally thousands of dollars on the initial purchase of batteries, but a lot more money can be saved in the long run. This effect can be optimized by various means, but the general approach is to distribute loads around the operation of the steam system to minimize the discharging of the battery system. While the steam system is operating it could also be heating a store of water (a thermal mass) for heating applications. Also, with particularly low speeds and attention to rugged design, then a system might be operated literally most of the time. Such a system might show a particularly low power rating to further minimize the size of the system. Personally, I believe a system at only 1 KWe is sufficient for most off grid residential scale applications.

    *AIR CONDITIONING WITH HEAT: Using steam for heating applications is straightforward. Using steam to provide air conditioning can be done through various means, but not without some ingenuity. For those who may be interested in trying this, I recommend ammonia absorption. However, in most cases providing air conditioning in the off grid setting should best be done with photovoltaics used to power conventional vapor compression systems. The only setting where a small biomass fueled steam engine might make sense would be a cold climate with extended periods of low solar insolation and where wood is already used as a primary source of heat. Under these conditions a steam engine system could provide all the heat, but it could also provide a lot of electricity.
    Last edited by buenijo; 09-19-2023 at 11:21 AM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  21. #78
    Osan, I enjoy reading your thoughtful posts. This discussion has caused me to consider more thoroughly the impetus behind the increasing interest in going "off grid". It does appear to be a growing trend. I can't speak for others, but I am personally concerned about being dependent on a system that I see as unstable and corrupt. As individuals we are dependent on one another in this modern society. I welcome the kind of interdependence fostered under a free market system. However, most who frequent this forum understand that the U.S. is not a free market system. I see the U.S. economy and social structure as artificial in many respects. Its current structure did not develop in a sustainable manner. Therefore, maintaining the current structure requires a continuation of the interventions that shaped its development. Unfortunately, the kind of central control that characterizes these interventions have no hope at all in organizing the capital structure of our economy for increased productivity, nor is there any hope of their affecting our social institutions in a positive manner. We're approaching a terrible crash that can take many forms. So far I am not optimistic that there are a sufficient number of individuals in the U.S. who understand how far down the rabbit hole we are, nor how bad things can get. What concerns me most of all is how much increased interventions the citizens of the U.S. will tolerate from our government should conditions deteriorate further. For example, if the U.S. economy were to take a dramatic leg down in the coming years with continued high unemployment and escalating inflation, then I fear (and expect) the populace to demand ever more imaginative interventions from our government. For this reason I am convinced that any fundamental reform can take place only after the current system in place collapses. If this takes place, then which path will we take? Are there enough individuals in the U.S. who understand liberty well enough to recognize and support leaders who will protect it? There is reason to hope, but I still see too much nonsense to call myself an optimist on this matter. Thinking along these lines since 2005 has led me to my current lifestyle of simplicity and frugality. I have zero debts, I rent a small house, and I save real money. I suppose my interest in going "off grid" is the next step in this process. In summary, I simply abhor the idea of being dragged down this rabbit hole against my will. I cannot avoid being affected by the trends in place, but that doesn't mean I have to cooperate.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly. View Post
    does anyone know how much torque those tesla turbines are capable of?
    As much as any other turbine, minimally - once up to speed. An impulse turbine is my idea of the way to bring the tesla elements up to operating velocity, at which point it is declutched from the operating gang.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    As much as any other turbine, minimally - once up to speed. An impulse turbine is my idea of the way to bring the tesla elements up to operating velocity, at which point it is declutched from the operating gang.
    i saw somewhere a guy was saying that if you can get the disc size and spacing correct, the tesla turbines can be 97% efficient

    i have see a bunch of pulse type motors, but i dont seem to recall any with high enough torque to spin a decent sized generator.



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  25. #81
    YouTube video showing a simple biomass gasifier furnace. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otzTpr4C_m8

    Check out how he processes his wood fuel here (fascinating!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXJCS...el_video_title
    Last edited by buenijo; 05-25-2011 at 11:55 AM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  26. #82


    WEB SITE: http://solarfire.org/Solar-Fire-P32-Description

    Excerpt from web site: "Testing is currently being done, but the expected performance is 15 kilowatts of steam energy in broad daylight. This steam energy can be used directly to purify large quantities of water, boil milk, produce edible oils, make charcoal for terra-pretta, bake bricks, make paper, recycle materials, and anything requiring heat.

    The steam can also drive a steam engine to directly power a water pump, oil and grain mills, cotton spinning, juice presses, or any (stationary) application requiring mechanical power. With direct power (no electricity) such systems are easy for villagers to install and maintain.

    Each concentrator is an autonomous source of energy (a sort of solar energy outlet) that can provide energy independence from fossil fuels and greatly reduce dependence on biomass.

    Electricity? Solar Fire is not designed with electricity in mind but rather to replace fires of biomass and coal, specifically in developing countries. However, the energy can also be transformed into electricity by a steam engine and generator for lighting, recharging mobile phones, etc.

    With the Solar Fire P-32, if the steam is converted to mechanical power and then electricity the result should be about 1.5 to 3 kw of electricity (testing will be performed shortly). So, only a small part of our steam energy can be converted to electricity (at the small scale). However, when used locally this “waste heat energy” from the steam engine can be easily used for boiling, drying fruit, heating spaces, pasteurizing, and so on. When we consider these secondary applications, the majority of the waste steam energy need not be wasted."

    MY COMMENT: I love the simple design. In its current form it requires an operator to continually adjust the position. However, I can think of all sorts of fairly simple ways to automate it. The estimated electricity generation rate of "1.5 to 3 kw of electricity" from a steam engine powered by this system is overly optimistic. If the peak power is 15 kilowatts of steam production, then the piston engine that is shown in the video would produce electricity at a peak rate of about 700-800 watts. I think these folks meant to write "1.5 to 3 kwh of electricity". This would be a solid conservative estimate of output for a single day of operation from such a simple steam engine, particularly when considering less than peak output during most of the time. Of course, the inventors do emphasize that the primary intended applications for this system is not electricity production.
    Last edited by buenijo; 05-30-2011 at 03:48 PM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  27. #83
    ^^^^^
    one of those + sterling engine + a generator = power?
    im sure it would work, but i wonder if it would be more or less efficient then just charging batteries with a pv array.

    edit: i realize these are designed for electrical power generation, but i think that should be the goal. even on a small scale decentralized power would be a huge step in the right direction.
    Last edited by Kelly.; 05-26-2011 at 11:44 AM.

  28. #84
    Hi Kelly. Sorry for the long post, but I have acquired a lot of knowledge on this topic, and developed strong opinions along the way.

    A stirling engine would certainly work, but not necessarily any better than a steam engine. In both cases (steam or stirling engine) it's difficult to build an engine that's cost effective, powerful, and highly efficient. If mechanical power is needed, and if the waste heat can be put to use in other processes, then a simple steam engine does makes a lot of sense in the applications suggested in the video (especially in the "third world").

    Now, if electricity is the only desired product, and a cutting edge heat engine is not available, then I say PV is the way to go. A PV array of the same surface area would generate a lot more electricity than the simple steam engine used in the video. However, cutting edge heat engines can be a lot more efficient than PV in generating electricity. For example, SES built a solar powered stirling engine that can generate grid quality electricity at 30% net efficiency (under ideal conditions). Infinia developed their "Power Dish" that is capable of 24% peak efficiency (again, under ideal conditions). Even under typical conditions the efficiency of these cutting edge solar stirling engines should be about twice the efficiency of most PV systems. Unfortunately, these stirling systems are expensive, heavy, bulky, and technologically advanced (i.e. Infinia's Power Dish has a rated output of 3.2 KW at 1900 lbs, and costs $30,000)... but I do admit they are really cool. Check out the Power Dish here: http://www.infiniacorp.com/powerdish.html

    I believe that a modern steam engine offers some advantages in the solar application. One start up company Cyclone Power Technologies is developing a 5 hp solar steam engine. This engine weighs only 20 pounds. Its efficiency will be lower than the modern solar stirling engines, but it will be better than PV. More important, a steam engine will see a near constant efficiency during operation. So, the stirling engine will be more efficient than the steam engine... but not so much more efficient as "peak" efficiency numbers would suggest. Most important, the modern solar steam system will be A LOT less expensive and simpler. Consider that if the fuel is free (solar), then it's not efficiency that matters! In this case, efficiency is a four letter word: C O S T!

    In particular, it seems to me that a modern solar steam system would be best suited for decentralized power since it can be simpler and less costly than other solar options. Of course, the modern solar steam systems are not yet available... we're just gonna have to wait and see how it turns out.

    ADDENDUM: See www.terrajoulecorp.com Their system is truly brilliant. It's gotten some decent press in the last few years, but I still think it's under appreciated. Their configuration makes possible 24/7 electricity generation with 100% solar (NO batteries - energy is stored with pressurized high temperature water in insulated steel propane tanks) at outputs higher than 100 KW electrical (and that's AC folks) with an overall efficiency of 17% (that is, 17% of the solar energy incident on the reflector array is converted to AC electricity). They are using a large slow moving piston steam engine design last manufactured in the 1940's. SEE POST #175 for more details.
    Last edited by buenijo; 09-21-2019 at 11:24 AM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  29. #85
    I just came across an exceptional web site on wood gasification. What I like about the site is how it's written. The author is a very good writer (especially considering that English is his second language), and he provides many personal accounts of his experiences in building and operating gasifiers. He also throws in a bit of his personal philosophy and politics, but this shouldn't be too distracting to those here as he seems to lean libertarian (this only makes sense... socialists don't build gasifiers, they petition the government to do it for them - and have you pay for it).

    HOME PAGE: http://woodgas.nl/GB/index.html

    MICRO GASIFIERS: http://woodgas.nl/microgasifiers/microgasifiers.html

    The discussion on micro gasifiers is SPOT ON! Now, I admit that I have little practical experience with wood gasification. I've done nothing beyond building and operating a few small updraft units. However, the discussion here confirms all of my research on wood gasification. The bottom line is that designing, building, and operating a large wood gasifier is a lot easier than doing so for a small one. A small unit suitable for powering an internal combustion engine reliably over an extended period of time must be built to perfection, and the fuel must also be processed to perfection. Since my interest is combined heat and power for a small off grid home with emphasis on simplicity and reliability, I shifted my focus toward small scale steam power. A micro gasifier might be great for emergency power when nothing else is available, but I'm convinced that it's not practical for someone to go totally off grid. A large unit used to power multiple homes in a small community is a different story.

    Also, here are two of some of the best resources on wood gasification available online!
    Wood Gas as Engine Fuel: http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0512e/T0512e00.htm
    Handbook of Biomass Downdraft Gasifier Engine Systems: http://www.tpub.com/content/altfuels01/0276/index.htm
    Last edited by buenijo; 05-30-2011 at 03:20 PM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  30. #86
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

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    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  31. #87
    Description of a solar powered ammonia absorption ice maker: http://www.free-energy-devices.com/P13.pdf

    The most complicated part of this system appears to be the solar concentrator. Using the heat from a small biomass furnace directly could be a lot simpler (something akin to the "wood gas camp stove" could be ideal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6evSvYH_RA). A freezer powered by a small batch loaded updraft biomass gasifier sounds very appealing! I believe that a small chest freezer that would normally consume 1 kwh of electricity each day could be powered by such a system with about 3 pounds of wood fuel each day.

    Other links: http://www.energy-concepts.com/isaac
    http://www.savethefood.org/
    Last edited by buenijo; 06-15-2014 at 10:09 AM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  32. #88
    pretty cool, please keep posting stuff here



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  34. #89
    FEMA Document: "Construction of a Simplified Wood Gas Generator for Fueling Internal Combustion Engines in a Petroleum Emergency".

    http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/index.shtml

    This document describes a very simple wood gasifier design. Unfortunately, this design is well known among gasifier enthusiasts to produce a dirty gas high in tar. It is not considered suitable for powering an engine reliably for an extended period of time. However, I consider this document a good introduction to wood gasification. The following excerpt is a good description of the process:

    "1.2 PRINCIPLES OF SOLID FUEL GASIFICATION

    All internal combustion engines actually run on vapor, not liquid. The liquid fuels used in gasoline engines are vaporized before they enter the combustion chamber above the pistons. In diesel engines, the fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber as fine droplets which burn as they vaporize. The purpose of a gasifier, then, is to transform solid fuels into gaseous ones and to keep the gas free of harmful constituents. A gas generator unit is, simultaneously, an energy converter and a filter. In these twin tasks lie its advantages and its difficulties.

    The first question many people ask about gasifiers is, 'Where does the combustible gas come from?' Light a wooden match; hold it in a horisontal position; and notice that while the wood becomes charcoal, it is not actually burning but is releasing a gas that begins to burn brightly a short distance away from the matchstick. Notice the gap between the matchstick and the luminous flame; this gap contains the wood gas which starts burning only when properly mixed with air (which contains oxygen). By weight, this gas (wood gas) from the charring wood contains approximately 20% hydrogen (H2), 20% carbon monoxide (CO), and small amounts of methane, all of which are combustible, plus 50 to 60% nitrogen (N2). The nitrogen is not combustible; however, it does occupy volume and dilutes the wood gas as it enters and burns in an engine. As the wood gas burns, the products of combustion are carbon dioxide (CO2) and water vapor (H2O).

    The same chemical laws which govern combustion processes also apply to gasification. The solid, biomass fuels suitable for gasification cover a wide range, from wood and paper to peat, lignite, and coal, including coke derived from coal. All of these solid fuels are composed primarily of carbon with varying amounts of hydrogen, oxygen, and impurities, such as sulphur, ash, and moisture. Thus, the aim of gasification is the almost complete transformation of these constituents into gaseous form so that only the ashes and inert materials remain.

    In a sense, gasification is a form of incomplete combustion; heat from the burning solid fuel creates gases which are unable to burn completely, due to insufficient amounts of oxygen from the available supply of air. In the matchstick example above, as the wood was burned and pyrolyzed into charcoal, wood gas was created, but the gas was also consumed by combustion (since there was an enormous supply of air in the room). In creating wood gas for fueling internal combustion engines, it is important that the gas not only be properly produced, but also preserved and not consumed until it is introduced into the engine where it may be appropriately burned."

    MY COMMENT: With the match example in mind the operation of a simple updraft biomass gasifier furnace like the wood gas camp stove makes perfect sense. (See wood gas camp stove here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyofh...el_video_title). Combustion is started at the top of the fuel pile. Air is then admitted into the base of the fuel pile to support continued combustion. The heat generated by this combustion gasifies (pyrolyses) the surrounding fuel. There is not enough air admitted into the base of the fuel pile to combust all of the gases generated. Therefore, additional air is admitted through the upper air ports. This achieves "secondary combustion" of the wood gas. This is just like a match. The phosphorus on the match tip starts the process. The heat generated by the phosphorus pyrolyses the nearby wood of the match to release a gas. This hot gas mixes with air to burn. The heat from the combustion of this gas keeps the process going until all the wood in the match is pyrolysed to char. A gasifier attempts to control this process to generate a combustible gas that can be burned separate from the fuel source. That is, it allows a small portion of the gas generated in the gasifier to burn, and this heats the fuel causing it to release more gas to be piped away for remote combustion. Once this is understood all kinds of configurations can be imagined. However, note that a gasifier used to generate an engine grade gas uses a somewhat more complicated process. See post #127 in the following thread: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-Engines/page5 for a more detailed description of the process.
    Last edited by buenijo; 07-14-2014 at 07:01 PM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  35. #90
    The interesting thing is that even modern power plants still use steam to produce power—albeit, different sources of fuel are used.
    Indianensis Universitatis Alumnus

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