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Thread: 1903 six HP steam engine powers modern off grid power system

  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by speciallyblend View Post
    i figured it was a scam. I just thought i would see what rpf had to say about it thanks now back to steam!!
    It really is an intriguing possibility. After we move and have the land, wood, equipment and privacy to do all this, we'll probably be experimenting with it ourselves.



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  3. #122

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    Interesting discussion I didn't open it because I though it was all about steam but I see there are some pretty interesting side discusions. I spent my time working on stream engines. I could really appreciate Osan posts as I have grown up and lived a lifestyle that started close to 19 century technology and evolved to satelite broad band internet.
    I know too intimately what a Misery Whip is!
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  4. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly. View Post
    dear buenijo,
    please come back, many are interested in what you may be doing
    Sorry to disappoint, but I'm in school these days. I won't be able to start any worthwhile AE projects for a long while. Although, I will eventually get my steam engine design working just to prove to myself (and others) that it will work well. Even a "simple" system like mine is going to be extremely difficult to build properly. I expect several years of trials and errors to be minimal. Most steam engine projects that you find on the web produce no usable power and the efficiency is absurdly low. I'm looking for something genuinely useful, and that's gonna be tough to produce. Even so, a biomass-fueled steam engine is not practical for powering a modern home, so it would interest only a select few who desire genuine self-reliance.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  5. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Is anyone selling small (5-20 hp) steam engines/boilers? There are some enormous advantages to using steam to generate electricity - availability of fuel being among them.
    Check out wood gasifier systems as well for fuel availability/concervancy issues. The advantage there is that nothing need be modified or added to existing engines to run them on wood gas.

  6. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Beastly One View Post
    Check out wood gasifier systems as well for fuel availability/concervancy issues. The advantage there is that nothing need be modified or added to existing engines to run them on wood gas.
    Hey, check out the thread on gasification here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ustion-Engines. Please make some contributions to the discussion there if you like... maybe we can get that thread going again.
    Last edited by buenijo; 01-10-2012 at 10:59 AM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  7. #126

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    The sterling engine on a parabolic dish is a pretty good idea. I've looked into them but I haven't found any produced for home owners.There are a few companies working on them, I'm linking to Sunpower below. I have also seen the stirling's cool side water cooled for increased efficiency.



    http://www.sunpower.com/services/applications/solar.php
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  8. #127

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    http://www.sunvention.com/

    they have a large version of a stirling motor....

    i would like more info on it if anyone can find it (ive seen the videos online, im looking for the big stirling info)

    having a locally built stirling that can run 1500 watts during the daylight would be an awesome addition to any self reliant energy setup.

  9. #128

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    For any heat engine the best it can do is an efficiency of 1-(Temperature of the cold side/Temperature of the hot side)

    The SunPulse Electric is the core element of a decentralized autonomous energy system. It is an innovative low-temperature Stirling engine, which transforms heat energy to mechanical and electrical energy. In conjunction with a solar-heated hot oil system (see EPG) or pressurized hot water storage system it can provide energy day and night. Energy storage is thereby solved in a fundamentally different way than in established solar technologies, which often work with environmentally problematic storage materials.
    So the bad part is since it is a low temperature system it will have low efficiency. The good part is using the oil or water to store heat energy allows for it to turn day and night. Sounds promising.
    "Time is catching up with me." -Ron Paul

  10. #129

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    yeah, their system is pretty involved. they have a greenhouse and a hot oil storage tank, etc etc.

    im more interested in even a version that would only run during the day via a solar concentrator or something similar.
    i like it because it is more versatile then the standard pv or wind setup. the stirling can provide mechanical power as well.

    i wonder if a stirling motor or a newman motor is cheaper to build?
    Last edited by Kelly.; 01-11-2012 at 09:37 AM.

  11. #130

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    (deleted for its redundancy)
    Last edited by buenijo; 08-22-2014 at 11:55 AM. Reason: same arguments made elsewhere
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  12. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxagol View Post
    I will immediately call the authorities on this. How dare she produce electricity without the blessing of her governments!

    But yes, neat. I want to make a Sterling Engine, mounted to a heliostat, which I haven't been able to figure out how to build yet, with a parabolic mirror or frenel lens mounted to it and have a generator attached to it. Mount that whole deal to your roof.
    OOO you stole my idea!! j/k neat idea huh. Tie that with an aquaponics system, a vermi(worm := heat/compost) composter, methane(natural) and hydrogen gas(by electrolysis) and you could create a powerhouse.
    Last edited by Liberty4life; 03-06-2012 at 07:40 PM.
    Remember humans are people too.

  13. #132

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    FUEL ETHANOL PRODUCTION AT HOME (*)

    It's actually fairly easy to build a reflux still to make 180+ proof ethanol in a single pass, and that's what I recommend for anyone who is dead set on doing this. Sure, a cheap pot still is great to get your feet wet, but anyone serious about producing their own ethanol fuel has to use a reflux still. The process is very simple, and I can explain it here. Note that while I have made my own wine for many years, I have never distilled it. However, I've done research on the process and I have an engineering background. Basically, you mix your sugar source in the proper concentration with water, then pasteurize it to kill bacteria and undesirable yeasts. Add your yeast and let it ferment to completion (usually a week or so). Now you're ready to use the still. The still is a pot with a reflux column. This column is simply a tall vertical pipe loaded with small rocks or marbles. The pot is insulated against heat loss. The column is not normally insulated, or it is weakly insulated. Now, a mixture of alcohol and water boils below 212F. As the vapors rise through the packing (i.e. the rocks) they continually condense and re-vaporize on the surface of the rocks (note that the heat lost from the column allows this, and the heat loss rate is important here - the best way to determine the proper rate is through experimentation). In effect, the column provides multiple distillations without using any extra energy or time inputs on your part. The most important element in the process is to keep the temperature at the top of the column within a very narrow range. The temperature you want is just above the boiling point for ethanol which is about 173F. The vapors enter the condenser immediately after they leave the top of the column, then you just collect the liquid ethanol.

    Yes, it's that easy.

    * This discussion is relevant to this thread because saturated steam at or near atmospheric pressure (such as the steam exhausted from a steam engine) is an excellent source of heat for a fuel ethanol still. The steam can be passed through a copper heat exchanger placed in the pot of the still. A bit of tweaking would find the ideal parameters to allow for fully automated operation (without fancy schmancy electronic equipment because the temperature of the heat exchanger is set at a constant 212F). The boiling point of an aqueous ethanol solution is less than 212F, but the boiling point of the solution will rise and approach 212F as ethanol is removed. This will lower the temperature difference between the heat exchanger and the solution. So, the evaporation rate of the solution will also fall. However, the heat loss rate from the column will not fall. What will happen is as follows: some ethanol will condense before it reaches the top of the column as latent heat is lost from the alcohol vapors. While this will lower the overall efficiency of the system somewhat, it doesn't matter because you're using essentially free heat from the steam engine exhaust (besides, you still get most of the heat from the steam exiting the heat exchanger in the pot since most of it is not condensing there, and you can still harvest the heat from the column and ethanol condenser if you want to). The ethanol production rate falls as the distillation progresses, but the proof of the ethanol if anything will go up under these conditions. Now, once the vast majority of the ethanol has been removed from the solution, you will get virtually no evaporation (since the boiling point of the solution is now near 212F => no temperature difference => no heat transfer). So, in principle, it's possible for such a system to operate unattended, yield high proof ethanol, and with no dedicated control system... and purely mechanical. NOTE: The exhaust from a small steam system can be easily maintained at a temperature higher than 212F through various means, and keeping the temperature higher than 212F can ensure all ethanol is harvested from the solution. As long as a small steam system is operated at a constant output, then the still can be configured for this output to allow for a fully automated operation by sizing the column properly to allow for a sufficient heat loss rate to minimize carryover of water.

    In general, this is economically viable only if you have a source of inexpensive fermentable sugars, and if you use a cheap source of heat for the distillation. For example, using electricity to power the still is not economical unless you put to use the heat thrown off the still (do the math, you'll see). On that note, anyone who wanted to the do this optimally should collect the heat from the ethanol condenser for heating applications (say, water heating). Hell, you could even put the still in a corner of a room when electric heat is used and use a fan to blow the heat around the room - this way you would catch ALL the heat. So, in principle, if someone uses electricity for heating, then using electricity to power a still could be done with all of the heat thrown off the still harvested for heating applications. Essentially, this would be like powering the still for free.

    A good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR7qIMMxH6Q

    ADDENDUM: Adding zeolite to the aqueous ethanol solution that leaves the still can remove most of the water to achieve a 97-99% ethanol solution. This can then be blended with gasoline up to 50% and used to fuel modern automobiles directly. See Steven Harris as www.imakemygas.com. NOTE: It may be that silica gel (crystal cat litter) will work in lieu of zeolite.

    ADDENDUM: Warning Not to Use E15 In Modern Cars (NOTE: It's hard to know what the truth is here since there are so many conflicting positions from "experts", but people should know both sides of the issue).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceW9Nc1hVHU
    Last edited by buenijo; 03-06-2013 at 04:44 PM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  14. #133
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  15. #134

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    I'm toying with an idea that I'll share on this thread since it involves steam. I remain convinced that a modernized piston steam engine with good thermal efficiency and fueled by biomass would be an ideal off grid power plant. However, until these become available I will consider other options.

    One of the main benefits of a piston steam engine is the ability to operate at very low power for extended periods while providing heat in a convenient package. Steam is an excellent heat transfer medium. So, I considered, why not devise a simple biomass fueled steam generator for heating applications? Furthermore, since my recent research shows that charcoal gasifiers can power very small engines cleanly and with impressive energy density, then how about a system that chars wood chips at a controlled rate and combusts the pyrolysis gases to generate steam on demand? The charcoal produced from the system can then be stored for use as required in fueling small engines.

    I'm not suggesting how to devise such a system... just noting that it might be done.
    Last edited by buenijo; 02-16-2014 at 09:22 AM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  16. #135

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    deleted
    Last edited by buenijo; 02-16-2014 at 09:22 AM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  17. #136

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    See this study on steam jet cooling: http://www.crses.sun.ac.za/files/res...r/aj_meyer.pdf .

    Interesting, but not likely competitive with alternatives..
    Last edited by buenijo; 08-24-2014 at 11:08 PM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  18. #137

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    I've come across some studies on desiccant evaporative cooling recently. The skinny on those is that certain desiccants like some grades of silica gel have been shown to be regenerated (i.e. dried) using heated air with surprisingly low temperatures. I've seen good results from 130-170F. The lower the temperature the higher is the required air flow rate which should be expected. The exhaust from a small steam engine can easily provide these temperatures, and the air flow rate required would not be high. It's also possible to use solar heated air, or the exhaust from a wood gas engine system (and blower fan used to cool cylinder) could be used. NOTE: The idea here is that a desiccant can dry the air in a home, then the dry air can be used to support evaporative cooling.
    Last edited by buenijo; 11-24-2013 at 12:36 PM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  19. #138

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    deleted
    Last edited by buenijo; 02-16-2014 at 09:25 AM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  20. #139

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    Sanden is manufacturing scroll automotive compressors with belt drive. I believe these might make good expanders for use in organic rankine cycle engines. Unfortunately, the temperature of the waste heat from this kind of system is too low for use in many applications. Anyway, I think this is something worth trying. Please note it's necessary to remove the reed valve at the compressor discharge, and that the hot pressurized refrigerant vapor is then applied to the compressor discharge to operate the scroll in the direction opposite that it moves when used as a compressor (well, in theory anyway).

    NOTE: Here is one small company working to develop this idea: http://www.eneftech.com/en/technology.php#turbine .
    Last edited by buenijo; 04-10-2013 at 05:23 PM.

  21. #140

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    http://tinytechindia.com/Template/in...TEAM%20ENGINES

    Looks like Mr. Desai is now making steam engines by modifying AIR-COOLED DIESEL ENGINES. Based on the photos, it looks like he is mounting double-acting steam cylinders and valve assemblies to existing Diesel engines using the stock engine piston/cylinder as a crosshead. Looks like the quality of his steam engines just went up.

    ADDENDUM: Price for a 2.5 HP engine including shipping costs is $1500. It seems to be a very robust design. It weighs 200 lbs, is about 30" tall, and the base is roughly 18" x 18". The bore is 2.48", and the stroke is 3.15". Based on these dimensions, the engine should put out more than 3 HP at 150 psi steam and 500 rpm. It's got a very long cutoff which is not good for efficiency, but it will provide a lot of power at low pressures and speeds. Best case for net efficiency here is about 4%. The best this engine could do under optimal conditions with a shortened cutoff is probably 6% net efficiency, and at that point it might be worth it... 4% is just too damn low. To reach the higher efficiency a smaller eccentric would have to be fabricated and the position of the eccentric on the shaft would have to be altered to get a steam cutoff of 25-33% of stroke. The steam quality would have to be high, and thermal losses from the boiler and all other places would have to be minimized with good insulation and other means. Getting 8% net efficiency is possible by using two engines in a compound configuration and bumping up the pressure to about 200 psig. Unfortunately, small scale steam power really needs serious upgrading before it can be practical. Without it, I must advise against it. Use a wood gasifier if power from biomass is desired. However, if you really can put the heat from a steam engine to use, then it can be a practical option.
    Last edited by buenijo; 04-27-2013 at 09:53 PM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  22. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by buenijo View Post
    http://tinytechindia.com/Template/in...TEAM%20ENGINES

    Looks like Mr. Desai is now making steam engines by modifying industrial air compressors. Based on the photos, it looks like he is mounting double-acting steam cylinders and valve assemblies to existing air compressor systems using the stock air compressor piston as a crosshead. Looks like the quality of his steam engines just went up.
    I see on this page... http://tinytechindia.com/Template/in...POWER%20PLANTS
    (9) STEAM POWER PLANT 10 KVA (FOR ELECTRIFICATION) COST US$ 9000/- with CD
    Not a bad price for so much.

  23. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by buenijo View Post
    http://tinytechindia.com/Template/in...TEAM%20ENGINES

    Looks like Mr. Desai is now making steam engines by modifying industrial air compressors. Based on the photos, it looks like he is mounting double-acting steam cylinders and valve assemblies to existing air compressor systems using the stock air compressor piston as a crosshead. Looks like the quality of his steam engines just went up.
    Any videos of the new units in action?

  24. #143

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    Recent Cyclone Power powerpoint presentation (part of presentation given at National Defense Industry Association).

    http://cyclonepower.com/2013/Cyclone...4-23-13_v8.pdf
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  25. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Any videos of the new units in action?
    I haven't seen any videos of the new units. I see no reason why the new units should not be superior to the old units. Funny, but I think I may have first suggested this modification to Mr. Desai after he informed me that the city in which he lives is known for the manufacture of Diesel engines, but I can't be certain as that was more than a year ago. You see, modifying engines in this manner is not new. Either way, it seems a good decision to have done this. Now, if he would only concentrate on increasing the efficiency of the unit, then he might end up with a good product.

    BTW, at first I mistakenly believed Mr. Desai used an air compressor for the mod, but he is in fact using a two stroke Diesel engine.

    NOTE: I believe it's worthwhile for someone with the inclination to acquire a small unit with the goal of modifying it for better performance, especially higher efficiency.
    Last edited by buenijo; 05-02-2013 at 03:51 PM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  26. #145

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    Internal Combustion engines are blasphemy
    -Freeman On The Land

  27. #146

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    I've made various speculations on providing air conditioning for a modest off grid home. I now take the position that a modest off grid home is best cooled by first minimizing heat gain through passive means. Air conditioning can then be had by powering small vapor compression a/c units as opportunity loads using photovoltaics. The cost of PV technology including the panels and the associated electronics have decreased so much, and their quality and performance has concurrently increased, that this is the most practical alternative in most cases.
    Last edited by buenijo; 08-22-2014 at 12:02 PM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
    "Being well adjusted to a sick society is not a measure of health." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  28. #147
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  29. #148

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    This thread should be stickied - just sayin'
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

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  30. #149
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    My Father had an Advance Rumely willed to him by my Grandfather. My Grandfather also had a Nichols and Shepard, a Buffalo Pitts and a Case. They used them for farming early on, threshing and so on. In later years they used them for running the silo blower, steaming tobacco beds, running them in parades and steaming sweet corn at local town festivals. Here is a video of one similar to my Father's steam engine tractor, except his had brass bands wrapped around the boiler. The reserve water tank was also mounted in the back along with the coal box.

    I helped load it on a flatbed a couple of times for parades. I steered and my Father operated the engine. As I recall he threw it in reverse and increased the throttle to stop it. I'm not sure, but I think reversing a steam engine involves reversing the engine which means the crank throw changes which way it orbits the fly wheel. Steering was different you had to crank the steering wheel about ten revolutions to get the front wheels to turn a few degrees. In case you are wondering what steaming tobacco beds was, It was a big box maybe 8 feet by 8 feet about 6 inches high, on 2 wheels (called a steam pan). it was lowered onto the ground and steam was piped into it. It killed all the weeds and fungus before the tobacco grower planted his tobacco. My Grandfather would go farm to farm selling his services, at about 3 to 5 miles per hour. http://steamtraction.farmcollector.c..._1983_04-1.jpg
    Last edited by Henry Rogue; 06-22-2013 at 10:52 AM.
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  31. #150
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    Awesome story, thanks for posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    My Father had an Advance Rumely willed to him by my Grandfather. My Grandfather also had a Nichols and Shepard, a Buffalo Pitts and a Case. They used them for farming early on, threshing and so on. In later years they used them for running the silo blower, steaming tobacco beds, running them in parades and steaming sweet corn at local town festivals. Here is a video of one similar to my Father's steam engine tractor, except his had brass bands wrapped around the boiler. The reserve water tank was also mounted in the back along with the coal box.

    I helped load it on a flatbed a couple of times for parades. I steered and my Father operated the engine. As I recall he threw it in reverse and increased the throttle to stop it. I'm not sure, but I think reversing a steam engine involves reversing the engine which means the crank throw changes which way it orbits the fly wheel. Steering was different you had to crank the steering wheel about ten revolutions to get the front wheels to turn a few degrees. In case you are wondering what steaming tobacco beds was, It was a big box maybe 8 feet by 8 feet about 6 inches high, on 2 wheels (called a steam pan). it was lowered onto the ground and steam was piped into it. It killed all the weeds and fungus before the tobacco grower planted his tobacco. My Grandfather would go farm to farm selling his services, at about 3 to 5 miles per hour. http://steamtraction.farmcollector.c..._1983_04-1.jpg

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