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Thread: This guy entered the US without a backscatter or pat down...

  1. #1

    Default This guy entered the US without a backscatter or pat down...

    http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter

    At this point, I took out my iPhone, activated the voice recorder, and asked The Supervisor, “Per my constitutional rights, I am not allowed to be detained without reasonable cause for arrest. Now, am I free to go?”

    He answered, “If you leave, we will call the APA.”

    I asked, “Who is the APA?”

    “The Airport Police.”

    I said, “Actually, that’s probably a good idea. Let’s call them and your manager.”

    The Supervisor turned and walked away without saying anything. I stood and waited, chatting to The Technician about how they aren’t allowed to wear radiation badges, even though they work with radiation equipment. He said, “I think I’m a couple steps ahead of you regarding looking out for my own health.”

    I stood and waited for 20 minutes. Two cops showed up. Big ones. I admit, I did not want to be handcuffed by these guys.

    One cop was older than the other, but they were still clearly partners. Neither of them took the lead on answering my questions, and neither of them told the other what to do. They came over to me and asked me to explain the issue. I first showed them the iPhone. After I explained my position, they restated the policy to me.

    I said, “Yes sir. I understand the policy, but I still disagree and I still don’t think that I can be made to do these searches in order to go home. Now am I free to go?”

    They didn’t answer.



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  3. #2

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    I get this message when visiting that site.

    Limit exceeded.

    Please contact support if the problem persists and you believe that the limit is being applied incorrectly. Include your IP address and a short description of what you were doing when you encountered the rate limit.

  4. #3

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    Good. But it shouldn't take 2.5 hours.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    I get this message when visiting that site.
    Try the link again?

    If not, here is the text:


    This past Sunday, I was returning from a business trip to Europe. I flew from Paris to Cincinnati, landing in Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.

    As I got off my flight, I did all of the things that are normally requested from U.S. citizens returning from abroad. I filled out the customs declarations, confirmed that I hadn’t set foot on any farmland, and answered questions about the chocolates that I had purchased in Switzerland. While I don’t believe that these questions are necessary, I don’t mind answering them if it means some added security. They aren’t particularly intrusive. My passport was stamped, and I moved through customs a happy citizen returning home.

    But wait – here was a second line to wait in.

    This new line led to a TSA security checkpoint. You see, it is official TSA policy that people (both citizens and non-citizens alike) from international flights are screened as they enter the airport, despite the fact that they have already flown. Even before the new controversial security measures were put in place, I found this practice annoying. But now, as I looked past the 25 people waiting to get into their own country, I saw it: the dreaded Backscatter imaging machine.

    Now, I’ve read a fair amount about the controversy surrounding the new TSA policies. I certainly don’t enjoy being treated like a terrorist in my own country, but I’m also not a die-hard constitutional rights advocate. However, for some reason, I was irked. Maybe it was the video of the 3-year old getting molested, maybe it was the sexual assault victim having to cry her way through getting groped, maybe it was the father watching teenage TSA officers joke about his attractive daughter. Whatever it was, this issue didn’t sit right with me. We shouldn’t be required to do this simply to get into our own country.

    So, since I had nobody waiting for me at home and no connecting flight to catch, I had some free time. I decided to test my rights.

    After putting all my stuff through the x-ray, I was asked to go through the Backscatter. I politely said that I didn’t want to. The technician quipped to his colleague, “We’ve got an opt-out.” They laughed. He turned back and started to explain.

    After he finished, I said, “I understand what the pat-down entails, but I wanted to let you know that I do not give you permission to touch my genitals or the surrounding area. If you do, I will consider it assault.”

    He called his manager over, who again informed me of the policy. Throughout this event, this happened quite a few times. After raising my concerns regarding the policy to an officer, they often simply quoted back the policy. For the sake of brevity, I will simply say “Policy restatement.”

    I said, “I am aware that it is policy, but I disagree with the policy, and I think that it is unconstitutional. As a U.S. citizen, I have the right to move freely within my country as long as I can demonstrate proof of citizenship and have demonstrated no reasonable cause to be detained.”

    Policy restatement. “You have two options – the Backscatter or the pat down. It is your choice, but those are the only ways you can go through security.”

    I asked if I could speak to his manager.

    “I’m the supervisor here.”

    “Do you have a manager?”

    “Yes, but he’s very far away at the moment. And he’ll say the same thing I am.” Policy restatement.

    At this point, I took out my iPhone, activated the voice recorder, and asked The Supervisor, “Per my constitutional rights, I am not allowed to be detained without reasonable cause for arrest. Now, am I free to go?”

    He answered, “If you leave, we will call the APA.”

    I asked, “Who is the APA?”

    “The Airport Police.”

    I said, “Actually, that’s probably a good idea. Let’s call them and your manager.”

    The Supervisor turned and walked away without saying anything. I stood and waited, chatting to The Technician about how they aren’t allowed to wear radiation badges, even though they work with radiation equipment. He said, “I think I’m a couple steps ahead of you regarding looking out for my own health.”

    I stood and waited for 20 minutes. Two cops showed up. Big ones. I admit, I did not want to be handcuffed by these guys.

    One cop was older than the other, but they were still clearly partners. Neither of them took the lead on answering my questions, and neither of them told the other what to do. They came over to me and asked me to explain the issue. I first showed them the iPhone. After I explained my position, they restated the policy to me.

    I said, “Yes sir. I understand the policy, but I still disagree and I still don’t think that I can be made to do these searches in order to go home. Now am I free to go?”

    They didn’t answer.

    I repeated the question. “Since you are actual police officers and not simply TSA, I am sure you have had much more training on my rights as a U.S. citizen, so you understand what is at stake here. So, am I free to go? Or am I being detained?”

    Young Cop answers, “You aren’t being detained, but you can’t go through there.”

    “Isn’t that what detaining is? Preventing me from leaving?”

    “You can leave if you want, but it has to be that direction.” He points back towards customs. Young Cop asks, “Why are you doing this?”

    I explain that I’m worried that the Backscatter has unproven health risks. And that for all he knows, I might be a sexual assault victim and don’t feel like being touched. I say that the policy is needlessly invasive and it doesn’t provide any added security.

    He asks, “But didn’t you go through this when you left on your flight?”

    “Yes,” I say, grinning, “But I didn’t want to miss my flight then.”

    The cops leave, and I stand around and wait some more. It should be noted that throughout this time, no fewer than 10 TSA officers and technicians are standing around, watching me. I was literally the only one still waiting to go through security.

    The cops, The TSA Supervisor, and another guy were standing behind the checkpoint deliberating about something. I explained this to my iPhone and The Supervisor shouted, “Does that thing have video?”

    “No sir. Just audio.” I was telling the truth – I’m still on an iPhone 3G.

    After a while, Young Cop comes and asks me for my papers. My passport, my boarding pass, my driver’s license, and even a business card. I give him everything except the business card. He told me that he was just gathering information for the police report, which is standard procedure. I complied – I knew that this was indeed standard.

    He left, and a Delta Airlines manager comes over and starts talking to me. He is clearly acting as a mediator. He asks what I would consent to, if given my options. I explain that I want the least intrusive possible solution that is required. I say, “I will not do anything that is not explicitly stated on recording as mandatory.” He leaves.

    Let me pause and clarify the actors’ moods here, because they will soon start to change:

    The Supervisor: Very standoffish. Sticking to policy, no exceptions.
    The TSA Officials: Mainly amused. Not very concerned otherwise.
    The Cops: Impartial observers and consultants. Possibly a bit frustrated that I’m creating the troubles, but being very professional and respectful regardless.
    The Delta Supervisor: Trying to help me see the light. He doesn’t mind the work - he’s here all day anyway, so he’d rather spend it ensuring that his customer is happy.
    After another wait, Old Cop returns, and asks me what I want. I tell him, “I want to go home without going through the Backscatter and without having my genitals touched. Those are my only two conditions. I will strip naked here if that is what it takes, but I don’t want to be touched.”

    He offers as an alternative, “What if we were to escort you out with us? It would involve a pat-down, but it would be us doing it instead.”

    “Would you touch my balls?”

    “I don’t want to touch your – genital region, but my hand might brush against it.”

    I clarify, “Well, like I said, I’ll do whatever you say is mandatory. If you tell me that you have to touch my balls—“

    “—I said no such thing. You’re putting words in my mouth.”

    “OK. I apologize. If you say that a pat-down is mandatory, and that as a condition of that pat-down, I may have my genitals brushed against by your hand, even though you don’t want to, I will do that. But only if you say it is mandatory.”

    “I’m not going to say that.”

    “OK. So am I free to go?”

    “You are free to go in that direction.” He points back towards customs. Then he walks away to commune with the others.

    My iPhone is running out of battery, so I take out my laptop, sit in a corner, and plug it in. I have some work to do anyway, so I pull up Excel and start chugging away for about 20 minutes.

    This is where the turning point happens.

    The cops come back and start talking with me. Again, they are asking why I’m doing it, don’t I have a connection to make, etc. They are acting more curious at this point – no longer trying to find a contradiction in my logic.

    I eventually ask what would happen if I got up and left, and just walked through security. They shrugged. “We wouldn’t do anything on our own. We are only acting on behalf of the TSA. They are in charge of this area.”

    “So if he told you to arrest me, you would? And if he didn’t, you wouldn’t?”

    “That’s right,” Young Cop says.

    “OK well then I think it is best if we all talk together as a group now. Can you call them over?”

    The Supervisor returns, along with the Delta Manager. The Supervisor is quite visibly frustrated.

    I explain, “The police have explained to me that it is your call on whether or not I am being detained. If I walked through that metal detector right now, you would have to ask them to arrest me in order for them to do anything.”

    He starts to defer responsibility to the officers. They emphasize that no – they have no issue with me and they are only acting on his behalf. It is his jurisdiction. It is policy. They won’t detain me unless he tells them to.

    So I emphasize the iPhone again, and ask,” So, if I were to get up, walk through the metal detector, and not have it go off, would you still have them arrest me?”

    The Supervisor answers, “I can’t answer that question. That is no longer an option because you were selected for the Backscatter.”

    “Well you can answer the question because it is a yes or no question. If I got up and left, would you have them arrest me?”

    “I can’t answer that question.”

    The moods have changed. The cops are now frustrated with him because he’s pawning off his decision-making responsibility to them. He’s stopping what is clearly a logical solution to the problem. Meanwhile, the Supervisor is just growing more and more furious with me.

    In another deferment of responsibility (which he probably thought was an intimidation factor), “Well then I guess I’m just going to have to call the FSD.”

    Unphased, I ask, “What’s the FSD?”

    “The Federal Security Director.” And he walks away.

    I can see him talking on the phone to the FSD – a man apparently named Paul – and I can only catch parts of the conversation:

    “No, he’s been perfectly polite…”
    “We tried that…”
    “All he said was … Constitutional rights”
    He walks over to Old Cop and hands him the phone. I can hear similar sound bites. They hang up, deliberate some more, and then wait some more.

    Meanwhile, I’m typing away on my computer. Answering emails, working on my Excel model – things that I would have done at home regardless.

    He walks over and stands uncomfortably close to me. After typing for a bit more, I look up. His voice shakes, “I don’t know if I ever introduced myself.” He pulls out his badge. “My name is XXX XXX. Here is my badge. Now, I’ve shown you my credentials.”

    Ah – he’s gotten the Miranda talk. I hide my smile.

    “Here’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to escort you out of the terminal to the public area. You are to stay with me at all times. Do you understand?”

    “Will I be touched?”

    “I can’t guarantee that, but I am going to escort you out.”

    “OK. I will do this. But I will restate that I still do not give you permission to touch my genitals or the surrounding area. If you do, I will still consider it assault.”

    “I understand.”

    And then came the most ridiculous scene of which I’ve ever been a part. I gather my things – jacket, scarf, hat, briefcase, chocolates. We walk over to the staff entrance and he scans his badge to let me through. We walk down the long hallway that led back to the baggage claim area. We skip the escalators and moving walkways. As we walk, there are TSA officials stationed at apparent checkpoints along the route. As we pass them, they form part of the circle that is around me. By the end of the walk, I count 13 TSA officials and 2 uniformed police officers forming a circle around me. We reach the baggage claim area, and everyone stops at the orange line. The Supervisor grunts, “Have a nice day,” and leaves.

    In order to enter the USA, I was never touched, I was never “Backscatted,” and I was never metal detected. In the end, it took 2.5 hours, but I proved that it is possible. I’m looking forward to my next flight on Wednesday.

  6. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshLowry View Post
    Try the link again?
    ~snip
    Thank you.

    After reading your post, I tried the link again and it worked.

    Go figure.....

    Seems there is a lot they are not telling us about their security orders. It's my guess they know it isn't constitutional.

  7. #6

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    Not that I'm advocating this, but the "it keeps us safe" folks would do well to realize this isn't being done to everyone. If it isn't, then you're introducing a lot of chance and luck into the entire procedure. You're supposing you are randomly going to catch that 1 in a million terrorist (more like "in a trillion" but whatever), that they are going to go through one of the backscatter machines or, if they opt out, that the groping will reveal the bomb in question. If the underwear bomber's bomb was directly a part of what would have appeared to be his genitals, then how does stopping short of the genitals discover this? How does a patdown discover an internal bomb? How does it determine that those silicone funbags aren't actually full of explosives? How does a patdown even remotely begin to address the fact that you can hide explosives anywhere... even in a set of dentures?

    If it isn't applied to everyone, it has no chance at all of keeping anyone safe. It is designed to oppress the multitudes on the off chance that the terrorist will show up in that special line and be caught (it hasn't happened yet). How come no one assumes the TSA goons are terrorists? It would be really simple to pay off someone who's on line-selection duty. Bombs don't need to be metal. Send your buddy through the grope-down with the denture-bomb and it's all over. The TSA terrorist would only get a little reprimand, since it would look like an innocent mistake.

    The TSA is so damned useless. The fact that a few people are seeing it is encouraging, but there are so many that say and do nothing.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  8. #7

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    Just imagine if we have just 10 Americans an hour do this at every airport...

    GAME OVER for the tyrants
    The American Dream, Wake Up People, This is our country! <===click

    "All eyes are opened, or opening to the rights of man, let the annual return of this day(July 4th), forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them."
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    June 1826



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  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    Just imagine if we have just 10 Americans an hour do this at every airport...

    GAME OVER for the tyrants
    The problem is, you can't do this just anytime -- only when the screening is to prevent you from leaving the airport. And there's no guarantee you'll get cops with the modicum of decency these seemed to have.
    “If you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.” -CS Lewis

    The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft.

    If our society were a forum, congress would be the illiterate troll that somehow got a hold of the only ban hammer.

  10. #9

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    I don't understand why they want to check people who are leaving the airport anyway. It isn't like they are going to bring down a plane.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    I don't understand why they want to check people who are leaving the airport anyway. It isn't like they are going to bring down a plane.
    More backscatters for Chertoff to hawk.
    “If you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.” -CS Lewis

    The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft.

    If our society were a forum, congress would be the illiterate troll that somehow got a hold of the only ban hammer.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by tremendoustie View Post
    More backscatters for Chertoff to hawk.
    Probably!

    Or they just want everybody to get used to taking it coming and going.

    Wait.... could this be the creation of jobs, the government has been promising?

  13. #12

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    I don't understand why they want to check people who are leaving the airport anyway. It isn't like they are going to bring down a plane.
    I have traveled international about 8 times in the last couple of years - I'm not a super frequent international traveler, but more than average. I have NEVER seen this EXCEPT when you have a connecting flight.

    This man was either going the wrong way, or had a connecting flight. Otherwise this just doesn't make sense to me.
    Freedom is popular!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    I don't understand why they want to check people who are leaving the airport anyway. It isn't like they are going to bring down a plane.
    VERY good point. Why on earth do they? I don't usually go through TSA on the way OUT. Heck, no one even checks the luggage tag numbers any more....

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Badass.

    I may try this.
    I'm liking it, might not carry my Army ID card when I do it...
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    Not that I'm advocating this, but the "it keeps us safe" folks would do well to realize this isn't being done to everyone. If it isn't, then you're introducing a lot of chance and luck into the entire procedure. You're supposing you are randomly going to catch that 1 in a million terrorist (more like "in a trillion" but whatever), that they are going to go through one of the backscatter machines or, if they opt out, that the groping will reveal the bomb in question.
    What about biological bombs? These guys are suicide terrorists? Get infected with some unique tropical disease. Fly over. Go to a busy mall during Black Friday. Backscatter all you want, not going to help.
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    Does the fucking victim have family? Why does the precinct still exist?

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    ...silicone funbags...
    You make them sound so terribly appealing.

    Thank you.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    What about biological bombs? These guys are suicide terrorists? Get infected with some unique tropical disease. Fly over. Go to a busy mall during Black Friday. Backscatter all you want, not going to help.
    Yeah... I've been wondering about that awhile now. Marburg. Dengue fever. Ebola. Hanta. All manner of really wicked and highly contagious bugs out there and the hemorrhagic viruses are all at least 50% fatal. Ebola is better than 90% fatal.

    This whole DHS/TSA thing is pure shyte.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    What about biological bombs? These guys are suicide terrorists? Get infected with some unique tropical disease. Fly over. Go to a busy mall during Black Friday. Backscatter all you want, not going to help.
    "The Faithful Spy" by Alex Berenson really provides a graphic scenario of a biological bomb. Spooky stuff.
    .... in his heart, and in his head, in his character, and in his intellect, in what he has done, and in what he will become, the Thomas Jefferson of our day, Ron Paul is one of us.
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  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    Not that I'm advocating this, but the "it keeps us safe" folks would do well to realize this isn't being done to everyone. If it isn't, then you're introducing a lot of chance and luck into the entire procedure. You're supposing you are randomly going to catch that 1 in a million terrorist (more like "in a trillion" but whatever), that they are going to go through one of the backscatter machines or, if they opt out, that the groping will reveal the bomb in question. If the underwear bomber's bomb was directly a part of what would have appeared to be his genitals, then how does stopping short of the genitals discover this? How does a patdown discover an internal bomb? How does it determine that those silicone funbags aren't actually full of explosives? How does a patdown even remotely begin to address the fact that you can hide explosives anywhere... even in a set of dentures?

    If it isn't applied to everyone, it has no chance at all of keeping anyone safe. It is designed to oppress the multitudes on the off chance that the terrorist will show up in that special line and be caught (it hasn't happened yet). How come no one assumes the TSA goons are terrorists? It would be really simple to pay off someone who's on line-selection duty. Bombs don't need to be metal. Send your buddy through the grope-down with the denture-bomb and it's all over. The TSA terrorist would only get a little reprimand, since it would look like an innocent mistake.

    The TSA is so damned useless. The fact that a few people are seeing it is encouraging, but there are so many that say and do nothing.

    I can't believe I've never thought of this, but yeah. It makes no sense at all when people say it keeps us safe.






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