Criminal investigation in a An-Cap society?

[denison]

To what extent could criminal investigatiors violate private property in pursuit of a criminal or while investigating a crime?

Lets say they have to search property for DNA evidence shortly after a murder takes place. The owner doesn't wanna give permission. He may or may not have been involved. Time is of the essence.

What happens?

[angelatc]

Belongs in philosophy.

[denison]

someone can move it....

[angelatc]

someone can move it....

They shouldn't have to.

[denison]

They shouldn't have to.

i said that cause i don't know how. can you delete a thread?

[pcosmar]

To what extent could criminal investigatiors violate private property in pursuit of a criminal or while investigating a crime?

Lets say they have to search property for DNA evidence shortly after a murder takes place. The owner doesn't wanna give permission. He may or may not have been involved. Time is of the essence.

What happens?

First what evidence is there that this person is Guilty or involved in the crime? Or what proof is there that this location was the "scene of the crime".

Not suspicion,,but evidence.

In the present system the law and rules are ignored altogether, which is why I ask. The Fourth amendment has been neutered to the point of irrelevance.

And I have no idea how a fictional system might or might not operate. I guess you just make it up, like the fictional system itself.

[denison]

First what evidence is there that this person is Guilty or involved in the crime? Or what proof is there that this location was the "scene of the crime".

Not suspicion,,but evidence.

In the present system the law and rules are ignored altogether, which is why I ask. The Fourth amendment has been neutered to the point of irrelevance.

And I have no idea how a fictional system might or might not operate. I guess you just make it up, like the fictional system itself.

i'm talking a case where the investigators show up at a scene where a body has been found. may be the owner was away, at the store or returning from a vacation etc..., and shows up after the police. can he kick them off his property before their allowed to investigate?

[denison]

? Or what proof is there that this location was the "scene of the crime".

the body is found there.

Not suspicion,,but evidence.

you have to investigate to gather evidence. what if the owner won't comply?

[Clairvoyant]

To what extent could criminal investigatiors violate private property in pursuit of a criminal or while investigating a crime?

Lets say they have to search property for DNA evidence shortly after a murder takes place. The owner doesn't wanna give permission. He may or may not have been involved. Time is of the essence.

What happens?

They would violate it to the extent their manpower, guns, and values of society would allow. I really don't think an-cap would be different than what we have now, if at all.

It's like an alternate history fantasy. How would this and that work out if man was free from government?

Yet everything we know suggest that man actually did come before government. So this is how it would turn out, we are looking at it.

[denison]

They would violate it to the extent their manpower, guns, and values of society would allow. I really don't think an-cap would be different than what we have now, if at all.

Do you think it would be corporations/businesses violating private property instead of the government in an anarco-capitalist society?

[Clairvoyant]

Do you think it would be corporations/businesses violating private property instead of the government in an anarco-capitalist society?

I think people with the most wealth, power, and following would set the rules and it would be pretty much the same as government that we have now. There would still be mass propaganda campaigns to sway opinions, there would still be attempts to control education to sway opinion, there would still be efforts to make people dependent on the wealthy (like people are dependent on corporations now or how peasants were dependent on the king and his castle).

[pcosmar]

i'm talking a case where the investigators show up at a scene where a body has been found. may be the owner was away, at the store or returning from a vacation etc..., and shows up after the police. can he kick them off his property before their allowed to investigate?

the body is found there.



you have to investigate to gather evidence. what if the owner won't comply?

"The body is found there"

How? By who? Who found the body? If the owner of the property was not there , was it someone who had permission to be there?

If you are going to create a bizarre and unlikely scenario, you need to fill in some of the blanks.

I can not see a reason for someone returning home and finding a body would hinder an investigation.

[Theocrat]

To what extent could criminal investigatiors violate private property in pursuit of a criminal or while investigating a crime?

Lets say they have to search property for DNA evidence shortly after a murder takes place. The owner doesn't wanna give permission. He may or may not have been involved. Time is of the essence.

What happens?

If I could add something to this scenario, let's say a husband murders his wife because he caught her in the act of adultery in his house. In anger, he calls his mother-in-law to tell her that he killed his wife and yells at the mother-in-law because she lied to him about her daughter not having an affair. The husband then calls a bunch of his friends because he knows what his mother-in-law will do next.

The mother-in-law then proceeds to call a private investigation agency to have her son-in-law tried in a private court for murder. The private investigation agency arrives at the scene of the murder to apprehend the husband and begin an investigation. However, the husband believes his actions were justified, and so he doesn't see himself as guilty of criminal behavior. His friends agree with him, and no sooner than the private investigation agency steps on the husband's property, his friends start firing shots at them for invasion of private property.

How then does an investigation proceed in a situation like that in an anarcho-capitalist society?

[denison]

"The body is found there"

How? By who? Who found the body? If the owner of the property was not there , was it someone who had permission to be there?

If you are going to create a bizarre and unlikely scenario, you need to fill in some of the blanks.

I can not see a reason for someone returning home and finding a body would hinder an investigation.

lets say he was renting or leasing his house out while on vacation. or someone one dumps the body on his front lawn for the public to view, that's how the police were called. this all happened before he got there and without his knowlege, but upon is arrival he refuses to let the investigators on his property to check things out.

do they have a right to trespass?

[denison]

If I could add something to this scenario, let's say a husband murders his wife because he caught her in the act of adultery in his house. In anger, he calls his mother-in-law to tell her that he killed his wife and yells at the mother-in-law because she lied to him about her daughter not having an affair. The husband then calls a bunch of his friends because he knows what his mother-in-law will do next.

The mother-in-law then proceeds to call a private investigation agency to have her son-in-law tried in a private court for murder. The private investigation agency arrives at the scene of the murder to apprehend the husband and begin an investigation. However, the husband believes his actions were justified, and so he doesn't see himself as guilty of criminal behavior. His friends agree with him, and no sooner than the private investigation agency steps on the husband's property, his friends start firing shots at them for invasion of private property.

How then does an investigation proceed in a situation like that in an anarcho-capitalist society?

oh that's good.

[Clairvoyant]

If I could add something to this scenario, let's say a husband murders his wife because he caught her in the act of adultery in his house. In anger, he calls his mother-in-law to tell her that he killed his wife and yells at the mother-in-law because she lied to him about her daughter not having an affair. The husband then calls a bunch of his friends because he knows what his mother-in-law will do next.

The mother-in-law then proceeds to call a private investigation agency to have her son-in-law tried in a private court for murder. The private investigation agency arrives at the scene of the murder to apprehend the husband and begin an investigation. However, the husband believes his actions were justified, and so he doesn't see himself as guilty of criminal behavior. His friends agree with him, and no sooner than the private investigation agency steps on the husband's property, his friends start firing shots at them for invasion of private property.

How then does an investigation proceed in a situation like that in an anarcho-capitalist society?

They would shoot back, run away, or wait for backup based on their manpower and what society would view as acceptable, same as now.

[pcosmar]

do they have a right to trespass?

By what authority? Who gives them that "right"?

If the property owner is concerned (and it would seem logical that he would be) He would hire investigators or do an investigation of his own.

What would give this fictitious agency any right to violate property rights?
Perhaps they planted the body. After all they are mercenaries for hire. An enemy or competitor likely hired them to frame him. The body was obviously planted there to be found. (since we are making $#@! up).

Do you really want mercenary "investigators" on your property?

[Clairvoyant]

By what authority? Who gives them that "right"?

If the property owner is concerned (and it would seem logical that he would be) He would hire investigators or do an investigation of his own.

What would give this fictitious agency any right to violate property rights?
Perhaps they planted the body. After all they are mercenaries for hire. An enemy or competitor likely hired them to frame him. The body was obviously planted there to be found. (since we are making $#@! up).

Do you really want mercenary "investigators" on your property?

Is there a way to get investigators that work for free?

[denison]

you're right i never thought of that.

as far as "making sh!t up". this scenario doesn't sound that far fetched. stuff like this happens...

what if the mother of the girl wants her family's investigators to retreive her body. but the owner won't let anyone on the property? how can the family go about getting her body back?

[Clairvoyant]

you're right i never thought of that.

as far as "making sh!t up". this scenario doesn't sound that far fetched. stuff like this happens...

what if the mother of the girl wants her family's investigators to retreive her body. but the owner won't let anyone on the property? how can the family go about getting her body back?

Call someone with guns who would be willing to do it.

[denison]

They would shoot back, run away, or wait for backup based on their manpower and what society would view as acceptable, same as now.

so are you saying, if they have the authority and (man)power to take someone's property, they can?

[denison]

Call someone with guns who would be willing to do it.

so the person with the biggest gun wins? is it really that simple?

what happened to "no agression, no coercion"?

[pcosmar]

Is there a way to get investigators that work for free?

In this scenario,,I am wondering who hired this agency in the first place and why?

I personally like the system that was set up by the Founders, but unfortunately that was corrupted long ago.
Would be good to go back to.
An Elected Sheriff. Protections for the accused. A presumption of innocence till a jury says otherwise.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Seems good to me.

[Clairvoyant]

so are you saying, if they have the authority and (man)power to take someone's property, they can?

Of course they can, for the moment, how long they are able to hold onto it depends on how society views their actions.

[pcosmar]

so the person with the biggest gun wins? is it really that simple?

what happened to "no agression, no coercion"?

Who enforces that?

answer Someone with the guns to do so.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

[Clairvoyant]

so the person with the biggest gun wins? is it really that simple?

what happened to "no agression, no coercion"?

I don't think it is that simple. You need societies' support, not just the biggest guns. Think about it how it is now. It's not just the cops that make the law powerful. If you have guns, you have a strong chance against the 2-3 cops trying to take you in (I am NOT advocating this, just making a point). What makes it overwhelming is the massive amount of manpower and support behind those 2-3 cops that makes them seem unstoppable, because they are accepted by society. Because manpower and guns are both equally important, you have to win hearts and minds as well as have a lot of guns. Today they do this with propaganda.

[denison]

what about theocrat scenerio?

and what about the family wanting to retrieve her body, but the owner not letting anyone on the property?

[pcosmar]

what about theocrat scenerio?

and what about the family wanting to retrieve her body, but the owner not letting anyone on the property?

The property owner will be happy to have the body relocated when it starts to stink.
Not a problem.

[denison]

The property owner will be happy to have the body relocated when it starts to stink.
Not a problem.

but what if he doesn't. maybe he was part of the crime and want to hide it. who has a right to trespass his property and retrieve the body?

[pcosmar]

what about theocrat scenerio?

and what about the family wanting to retrieve her body, but the owner not letting anyone on the property?

In Theo's scenario he does not deny killing her. only that it was justifiable and no crime.
Who is to say otherwise?
By what authority?