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Thread: Donald Trump correct on trade - free trade crowd are traitors for profit!

  1. #1

    Exclamation Donald Trump correct on trade - free trade crowd are traitors for profit!

    While on GretaWire Thursday evening [11-4-10, FoxNews], Donald Trump correctly questioned Congress‘ trade policy which has been responsible for America’s manufacturing base to be slowly closed down over the past 30 years. For example, Donald asked why are we not producing toys in America and allowing toys made in China, which are poisonous, to enter our country tax free which in turn closes down our domestic toy manufactures? Of course, Donald was being polite by not following up and questioning such policy as both un-patriotic and adopted because it may personally be profitable for the personal fortunes of those who have enacted such policy.


    Unlike our current Washington Establishment’s trade policy which certainly is not in America’s best interests and has allowed cheaply made inferior products ___ everything from plumbing supplies, tools and toys ___ to flood our market and put our domestic manufactures out of business which creates unemployment, our founding father’s power over trade and taxation was carefully used with America’s best interests in mind and was used by our founding fathers to encourage the development and expansion of America’s domestic manufacturers and industries.

    In fact our founding fathers use of their power over trade and taxation was very much responsible for America becoming the economic marvel of the world, until our modern day Congress became infested with disloyal money hungry members who were, and are, more than willing to sell out America to foreign manufactures to personally profit in the process! When these members of Congress talk about “free trade”, they are talking about allowing foreign manufactures to freely flood our market with untaxed cheap inferior goods, while Congress then freely taxes America’s manufactures, industries and labor to fill its national treasury. That is what they mean when they talk about “free trade”.

    By contrast, instead of taxing our domestic manufactures, industries and labor to fill our national treasury, our founding fathers taxed at our water’s edge and had foreigners paying for the privilege of doing business on America soil! What a novel idea … an America first policy!

    Madison sums up our trade policy as follows during the creation of our Nation‘s first revenue raising Act


    “…a national revenue must be obtained; but the system must be such a one, that, while it secures the object of revenue it shall not be oppressive to our constituents.”

    The Act went on to tax specifically chosen imported articles and not one dime was raised by taxing American domestic manufacturers, the working man’s wage, or the returns on invested capital ___ all of which contributed enormously to America becoming the economic marvel of the world! It should also be noted the Act was signed by George Washington on July 4th, 1789, as if to give England a second notice of America’s independence while exercising her power to tax foreign imports in order to fill our national treasury.

    In addition to imposing a specific amount of tax on specifically chosen articles imported, our founding fathers imposed an across-the-board tax on imports which was higher for imports arriving in foreign owned foreign built vessels, and discounted the tax for imports arriving in American owned American built ships:

    "...a discount of ten percent on all duties imposed by this Act shall be allowed on such goods, wares, and merchandise as shall be imported in vessels built in the United States, and wholly the property of a citizen or citizens thereof." see: An Act imposing duties on Tonnage July 20, 1789

    This patriotic use of taxing at our water’s edge not only filled our national treasury, but gave American ship builders a hometown advantage and predictably resulted in America's ship building industry to flourish and America’s merchant marine to become the most powerful on the face of the planet. Unfortunately, last time I visited the docks in New York's Hell's Kitchen area, I was very saddened that I can no longer read the names on the docked ships as they all seem to now be foreign owned foreign built vessels...an irrefutable sign of America's decline traceable to the ravages of our international “free trade crowd” and the sellout of America’s sovereignty to the highest international bidders.

    You bet Donald Trump is correct on trade policy and realizes a nation which has no manufacturing base, is a nation doomed to foreign dependency with an unemployed population dependent upon folks in government, both of which is our progress and one world leader’s dream! And with this in mind, John Boehner, our stealth RINO in Congress, who has sold his vote to China, Australia, Central America, Peru and Chile is already reaching across the isle to Obama to create more “free trade” with India, with South Korea, and Japan, which will all but finalize the closedown of America‘s manufacturing base, make America almost totally dependant upon foreign nations, and create a permanent unemployed population in America which will be very much dependent upon folks in government for their subsistence. And this character wants to be speaker of the House and lead the Republican Party?


    JWK


    America, we have a problem, we have been attacked from within! We are being destroyed from within by a group of DOMESTIC ENEMIES who have managed to seize political power and whose mission is in fact to bring “change” to America ___ the dismantling of our military defensive power; the allowance of our borders to be overrun by foreign invaders, the diluting of our election process by allowing ineligible persons to vote; the destruction of our manufacturing capabilities; the strangulation of our agricultural industry and ability to produce food under the guise of environmental necessity; the destruction of our nation’s health care delivery system, the looting of both our federal treasury and a mandatory retirement pension fund; the brainwashing of our nation’s children in government operated schools; the trashing of our nation’s traditions and moral values; the creation of an iron fisted control unauthorized by our written Constitution over America’s businesses and industries; the devaluation of our nation’s currency, and, the future enslavement of our children and grand children via unbridled debt and inflation, not to mention an iron fisted government which intends to rule their very lives!



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  3. #2
    That ^^^
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  4. #3
    This article is awesome, but unfortunetly will fall on deaf or no ears.....

    What is the solution? Big business has bought out the politicians right? They can get cheap labour, no/low taxation for importing their products into the US etc.. So, we have a crowd that wants a better deal for america (manuf. in U.S, jobs etc..) vs. the very business that is suppose to create jobs opposing.. ie. big busniess?

    Lets talk about solutions. How can this be turned around?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Xar View Post
    This article is awesome, but unfortunetly will fall on deaf or no ears.....

    What is the solution? Big business has bought out the politicians right? They can get cheap labour, no/low taxation for importing their products into the US etc.. So, we have a crowd that wants a better deal for america (manuf. in U.S, jobs etc..) vs. the very business that is suppose to create jobs opposing.. ie. big busniess?

    Lets talk about solutions. How can this be turned around?
    Pass an amendment to replace all internal federal taxes with a flat tariff over a period of 10 years or so.
    Member of Ron Paul Forums Double Flat Tariff Only Society - Working towards eliminating all the foreign producer/outsource subsidizing internal federal taxes in favor of an across the board flat tariff applied equally to every country and every product.

  6. #5
    + rep for the OP
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  7. #6
    When these members of Congress talk about “free trade”, they are talking about allowing foreign manufactures to freely flood our market with untaxed cheap inferior goods, while Congress then freely taxes America’s manufactures, industries and labor to fill its national treasury. That is what they mean when they talk about “free trade”.

    By contrast, instead of taxing our domestic manufactures, industries and labor to fill our national treasury, our founding fathers taxed at our water’s edge and had foreigners paying for the privilege of doing business on America soil!
    Succinct.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by sratiug View Post
    Pass an amendment to replace all internal federal taxes with a flat tariff over a period of 10 years or so.
    That^^^

    Reduce or eliminate corporate and personal income taxation and capital gains taxation and replace it with constitutional import duties.
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  9. #8
    So you don't think these toy manufacturers are paying taxes in China? That is one of the biggest fallacies I have ever seen -- ever. The idea that foreign manufacturers aren't paying any taxes, because they do not pay American corporate taxes, etc. and therefore since they pay no tax it eliminates our manufacturing. Even if this was true, why would you not be in favor of importing goods that are able to be manufactured cheaper? Jobs are not entitlements. If you are unable to compete with other firms given they have a better commercial climate, why would you want to subsidize (Tariffs), and preclude competition? The individual is worse off in almost every way.

    It seems to me also that conservatives who favor strong protectionism don't even realize the contradiction in their argumentation. For some reason they blame competition as leading to a loss of manufacturing, but not looking at commercial conditions which are the prime factor in whether or not an economy flourishes or dwindles. Even if we take the argument at face value it is equally absurd, because they argue that other entities can compete better than we can (And let me tell you, America is one of the most subsidized nations in the world by far), and therefore since these companies can compete better we should punish them, but then in the same breath believe in the exact opposite in the arbitrary boundries known as the USA. It is mind-boggling.

    If we shut off the world completely had 100% tariffs, and had police presence to prevent smuggling, we would still hemorrhage our manufacturing because of the commercial policies enacted within this territory. It is completely anti-capitalist (free-market).
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui mÍme

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

    www.mises.org
    www.antiwar.com
    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)



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  11. #9
    Free trade? Are you joking? What we have is certainly not free trade. Domestically manufactured goods are taxed quite heavily while foreign made products are imported completely free of implicit tariffs like minimum wage, environmental regulations, threat of employee lawsuits, payroll taxes, etc.

    The only explanation of why this is allowed to happen is that there is a natural competitive advantage towards small business, but not if they are forced to accept the overhead of dealing with offshore manufacturers. Also, all the regs and lawsuit threats are harsher on small business. It's a bias towards big corporations.

  12. #10
    Taxation, regulation, and labor unions are what ruined America's manufacturing base.

    Free trade, which we do not have, has nothing to do with it.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    For example, Donald asked why are we not producing toys in America and allowing toys made in China, which are poisonous, to enter our country tax free which in turn closes down our domestic toy manufactures? Of course, Donald was being polite by not following up and questioning such policy as both un-patriotic and adopted because it may personally be profitable for the personal fortunes of those who have enacted such policy.

    [/i]
    Trump is demagoguing the issue. BTW, there are plenty of toys still made in the USA. Do a Google search of "Toys made in the USA" and you'll find dozens of companies making toys here, large and small.

    The reason most (but certainly not all) of the cheap plastic toys sold in the USA are made in China is that people would rather pay $5 for a plastic toy made in China than to pay $15 for the same toy made here.

    That isn't about tax rates or tariffs, it's about consumers making a choice. The same choice they make when they buy a $15 shirt from China rather than a $30 shirt from the USA or a $15 pair of shoes from China rather than a $80 pair of shoes made here.

    Congress isn't going to change that by tinkering with tax and tariff rates.

    About the only way they can change that is to shut down overseas trade, which would not only reduce consumer choice, but likely cause a global economic meltdown.

    Doesn't Trump have a failing casino to run, or a beauty pageant to lord over?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    So you don't think these toy manufacturers are paying taxes in China?
    Taxes paid in China, to the Communist Chinese government, benefit us, how?

    This is a society that killed 50 million people for "the better good".

    Do you honestly think "they" meaning the Chinese ruling class, give a $#@! whether Chinese taxes are high or not?


    Even if this was true, why would you not be in favor of importing goods that are able to be manufactured cheaper? Jobs are not entitlements. If you are unable to compete with other firms given they have a better commercial climate, why would you want to subsidize (Tariffs), and preclude competition? The individual is worse off in almost every way.
    No, a job is not an entitlement.

    "Pursuit of happiness" is a right.

    Governments are instituted among men to protect those rights.

    It's hard to pursue happiness, living in a cardboard box because you can't find decent work anywhere because government has adopted a policy that is directly contrary to work, industry and jobs being created.

    It seems to me also that conservatives who favor strong protectionism don't even realize the contradiction in their argumentation. For some reason they blame competition
    Trying to maintain a competitive business with a prison economy is impossible.

    If we shut off the world completely had 100% tariffs, and had police presence to prevent smuggling, we would still hemorrhage our manufacturing because of the commercial policies enacted within this territory. It is completely anti-capitalist (free-market).
    Yes, which is why they need to change as well.
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  15. #13
    If you want to replace the current tax system with a revenue-raising tariff on the basis that it would less harmful, that's okay. But don't make the mistake of thinking that such a tariff would be positive good for the economy. Protectionism makes everyone poorer. If protectionism made people richer, embargoes and trade sanctions would be considered an act of charity. The wealthiest people on Earth would be hermits; after all, at least hermits have "jobs."

  16. #14
    The reason most (but certainly not all) of the cheap plastic toys sold in the USA are made in China is that people would rather pay $5 for a plastic toy made in China than to pay $15 for the same toy made here.
    The question is why can't Americans produce toys for $5. The main reason I can think of is that workers in China and other places:

    1) Get paid a lot less.

    2) Are less likely to sue their employers.

    3) Are taxed a lot less.


    #2 is really interesting. When I hear Rand Paul talking about Osha and regulation, I can hear the frustration of a small business person in his voice. Employers are terrified of their employees in America, especially small businesses. They're afraid they're going to sue them. A client of mine said that he was just threatened by an employee over taking long breaks during work, saying that if she didn't get enough sunlight the company would be responsible for her asthma acting up. You could say the employer should tell her to go to hell, but believe me, employees sue for even stupider reasons.

    The solution is tort reform ultimately. Maybe the Tea Parties can take this up as a cause, but I don't know. A lot of them seem like the suing type as opposed to the employer types.

    Regardless, Chinese manufacturers aren't afraid of losing everything from an employee lawsuit when they open a factory.

    Same thing for environmental lawsuits. There are law companies whose sole business is to go around suing manufacturers, developers, etc over environmental laws. It's one thing to say, yeah follow the rules. It's another to sick lawyers after small business.

    You don't see this in other countries. Just part of the problem, but a big one.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by NYgs23 View Post
    If you want to replace the current tax system with a revenue-raising tariff on the basis that it would less harmful, that's okay. But don't make the mistake of thinking that such a tariff would be positive good for the economy. Protectionism makes everyone poorer. If protectionism made people richer, embargoes and trade sanctions would be considered an act of charity. The wealthiest people on Earth would be hermits; after all, at least hermits have "jobs."
    If tariffs make the situation universally worse, in every case, with no exceptions, why are nations that now have a higher standard of living and higher median income that we do also nations that impose import tariffs, some pretty stiff as well as immigration control?

    How are the tariffs that prompted Toyota and Honda to manufacture the two best selling cars in the US, arguably of the highest quality in the world, selling for a reasonable price, employing thousands of non union manufacturing workers at good wages, making "everybody poorer"?

    Please, somebody explain to me how shutting those plants down in Kentucky and Ohio, throwing all those people out of worker and getting them new, better jobs as part time Wal Marx greeters, somehow enhances prosperity for all?
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  18. #16
    Silly Donald, we don't have to build ships because we can keep borrowing money from China to buy their goods and call it wealth.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by furface View Post
    The question is why can't Americans produce toys for $5. The main reason I can think of is that workers in China and other places:

    1) Get paid a lot less.

    2) Are less likely to sue their employers.

    3) Are taxed a lot less.


    #2 is really interesting. When I hear Rand Paul talking about Osha and regulation, I can hear the frustration of a small business person in his voice. Employers are terrified of their employees in America, especially small businesses. They're afraid they're going to sue them. A client of mine said that he was just threatened by an employee over taking long breaks during work, saying that if she didn't get enough sunlight the company would be responsible for her asthma acting up. You could say the employer should tell her to go to hell, but believe me, employees sue for even stupider reasons.

    The solution is tort reform ultimately. Maybe the Tea Parties can take this up as a cause, but I don't know. A lot of them seem like the suing type as opposed to the employer types.

    Regardless, Chinese manufacturers aren't afraid of losing everything from an employee lawsuit when they open a factory.

    Same thing for environmental lawsuits. There are law companies whose sole business is to go around suing manufacturers, developers, etc over environmental laws. It's one thing to say, yeah follow the rules. It's another to sick lawyers after small business.

    You don't see this in other countries. Just part of the problem, but a big one.
    That too +1776

    Somehow this all got boiled down to a "tariffs or nothing" argument.

    There many things affecting the jobs environment, so called "free trade" is just one of them, tax burdens, regulatory burdens, and lack of any sort of tort sanity are part of it as well.
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That too +1776

    Somehow this all got boiled down to a "tariffs or nothing" argument.

    There many things affecting the jobs environment, so called "free trade" is just one of them, tax burdens, regulatory burdens, and lack of any sort of tort sanity are part of it as well.
    You are acting like these manufacturing bases wouldn't go out of business if we had stiff tariffs. That simply isn't true. To state otherwise implies you don't think anything else is affecting the decline of capitalization in this country. We are getting poorer because of Government policies, not because the lack of them (The problem with our trade-policies today aren't in the rate of tariffs which I agree with, but the stipulations presented there-in in those massive regulatory bodies known as WTO, NAFTA, etc.).
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui mÍme

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

    www.mises.org
    www.antiwar.com
    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    (The problem with our trade-policies today aren't in the rate of tariffs which I agree with, but the stipulations presented there-in in those massive regulatory bodies known as WTO, NAFTA, etc.).
    We're in agreement on that.

    Regardless of where you are on the issue, the decision has been taken out of our hands, once having signed over the right to set trade policy that benefits us, to unelected, unrepresentative, unaccountable global governing bodies like the ones you mentioned and a myriad of others.
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    So you don't think these toy manufacturers are paying taxes in China? That is one of the biggest fallacies I have ever seen -- ever. The idea that foreign manufacturers aren't paying any taxes, because they do not pay American corporate taxes, etc. and therefore since they pay no tax it eliminates our manufacturing. Even if this was true, why would you not be in favor of importing goods that are able to be manufactured cheaper? Jobs are not entitlements. If you are unable to compete with other firms given they have a better commercial climate, why would you want to subsidize (Tariffs), and preclude competition? The individual is worse off in almost every way.

    It seems to me also that conservatives who favor strong protectionism don't even realize the contradiction in their argumentation. For some reason they blame competition as leading to a loss of manufacturing, but not looking at commercial conditions which are the prime factor in whether or not an economy flourishes or dwindles. Even if we take the argument at face value it is equally absurd, because they argue that other entities can compete better than we can (And let me tell you, America is one of the most subsidized nations in the world by far), and therefore since these companies can compete better we should punish them, but then in the same breath believe in the exact opposite in the arbitrary boundries known as the USA. It is mind-boggling.

    If we shut off the world completely had 100% tariffs, and had police presence to prevent smuggling, we would still hemorrhage our manufacturing because of the commercial policies enacted within this territory. It is completely anti-capitalist (free-market).
    ^^^^^^

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  24. #21
    Sounds like more protectionist bull$#@! IMO.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    If tariffs make the situation universally worse, in every case, with no exceptions, why are nations that now have a higher standard of living and higher median income that we do also nations that impose import tariffs, some pretty stiff as well as immigration control?
    I don't know which countries you're talking about, and I don't accept that comparisons between countries are a good way of determining anything. There are too many different factors. It's comparing apples and oranges. I do know that the US government, at all levels, is doing all kinds of things making us poorer. So it would be no shock to discover that we're poorer than some other country, despite higher tariffs in that country.

    How are the tariffs that prompted Toyota and Honda to manufacture the two best selling cars in the US, arguably of the highest quality in the world, selling for a reasonable price, employing thousands of non union manufacturing workers at good wages, making "everybody poorer"?

    Please, somebody explain to me how shutting those plants down in Kentucky and Ohio, throwing all those people out of worker and getting them new, better jobs as part time Wal Marx greeters, somehow enhances prosperity for all?
    In a free market, you don't need to worry about unemployment. There's always scarcity, so there's always more work for people to do. The only question is who does which work most efficiently according to comparative advantage.

    Say, what about Japanese workers unfairly and unjustly unemployed by Toyota "outsourcing" jobs to America due to violently imposed trade barriers. Japanese workers who now will have less money to purchase American products. Are only American workers worthy of concern?

    If protectionism works, why don't we erect trade barriers between the states? Between counties? Between households? Surely it would be better for a household to stop trading with anyone else. Then they'd always have jobs...as subsistence farmers.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by NYgs23 View Post
    Say, what about Japanese workers unemployed by Toyota "outsourcing" jobs to America due to violently imposed trade barriers. Japanese workers who now will have less money to purchase American products. Are only American workers worthy of concern?
    What American products?

    No American products are allowed to be sold on the Japanese market without being subjected to high import tariffs.

    Ditto, China.

    Ditto, Korea.

    Ditto the EU.

    Ditto Australia.

    Ditto New Zealand.

    Ditto Switzerland.

    And why is it my business or my country's business to worry about the status of Chinese or German or Japanese working people?

    We should mind our own business and follow trade policy that is good for us.

    If protectionism works, why don't we erect trade barriers between the states? Between counties? Between households? Surely it would be better for a household to stop trading with anyone else. Then they'd always have jobs...as subsistence farmers.
    Because there is no need.

    Trade between states, counties or households within the US is trade that falls under similar regulatory and tax burdens, not trade managed by unaccountable globalist trade organizations or trade with genocidal prison state economies.
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    What American products?

    No American products are allowed to be sold on the Japanese market without being subjected to high import tariffs.

    Ditto, China.

    Ditto, Korea.

    Ditto the EU.

    Ditto Australia.

    Ditto New Zealand.

    Ditto Switzerland.

    And why is it my business or my country's business to worry about the status of Chinese or German or Japanese working people?

    We should mind our own business and follow trade policy that is good for us.



    Because there is no need.

    Trade between states, counties or households within the US is trade that falls under similar regulatory and tax burdens, not trade managed by unaccountable globalist trade organizations or trade with genocidal prison state economies.
    Actually that is factually wrong. Each state has vastly different regulatory burdens, tax burdens, commercial climates, scarce resources, etc. Like I have brought up before, businesses in NH are vastly more competitive than businesses located in NY. Do you honestly believe the people of NY would be better off if they shut off NH because NH was 'stealing' their manufacturing and jobs because NH can compete better than NY (and similarly vice versa -- NH shutting off NY, MD, MA, etc.)?
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui mÍme

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

    www.mises.org
    www.antiwar.com
    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    No American products are allowed to be sold on the Japanese market without being subjected to high import tariffs.
    All the more reason to spread the blessings of free trade.

    And why is it my business or my country's business to worry about the status of Chinese or German or Japanese working people?
    Human solidarity and good will toward men?

    We should mind our own business and follow trade policy that is good for us.
    Who's "us"? People who happen to lie within some arbitrary scribbles on a map? I'm sure I have more in common with some Japanese than with some Americans

    Trade between states, counties or households within the US is trade that falls under similar regulatory and tax burdens, not trade managed by unaccountable globalist trade organizations or trade with genocidal prison state economies.
    Nevada doesn't have the same regulatory and tax burdens as California. Under your philosophy, California should impose tariffs on Nevada to keep jobs in California, despite California's higher regulatory and tax burdens. Even if this were true, wouldn't the pro-liberty solution be to lift those Californian burdens rather than impose barrier to try to keep people and businesses in? So wouldn't the pro-liberty solution for the US be to remove federal tax and burdens that punish business here?

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by NYgs23 View Post
    All the more reason to spread the blessings of free trade.
    Only works in countries with mutual agreements. Since you mentioned the Japanese I'll give ya an example.

    When I served in the Navy in Yokosuka I frequented a bar where I could pay off my monthly tab for a few cases of Budweiser.
    The reason why. In the '80s Bud cost 4 times higher than the nations beer. Why? Import tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYgs23 View Post
    Human solidarity and good will toward men?
    For that to work there would have to be reciprocation. We are not dealing with "individuals" in other nations just as they are not dealing with "individuals" in ours.


    Quote Originally Posted by NYgs23 View Post
    Who's "us"? People who happen to lie within some arbitrary scribbles on a map? I'm sure I have more in common with some Japanese than with some Americans
    Christ I dunno. Maybe your neighbors that just lost their house? WTF? We're not trying to save the WORLD on RPFs.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYgs23 View Post
    Nevada doesn't have the same regulatory and tax burdens as California. Under your philosophy, California should impose tariffs on Nevada to keep jobs in California, despite California's higher regulatory and tax burdens. Even if this were true, wouldn't the pro-liberty solution be to lift those Californian burdens rather than impose barrier to try to keep people and businesses in? So wouldn't the pro-liberty solution for the US be to remove federal tax and burdens that punish business here?
    Interstate commerce is one of the FEW things afforded by the federal government.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 11-05-2010 at 05:52 PM.

  31. #27
    Actually everything is a flat 6.5% import tariff in Switzerland and Cadillac and Jeep are two of the top five cars sold in the country.

    That being said, nowhere in the DoI or Constitution is promoting free trade listed as a duty of government - it is to provide for the common defense, domestic tranquility, and promote the general welfare, protecting individual, not corporate rights.

    Otherwise, add me as a +1 for Anti-Federalist.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by NYgs23 View Post
    So wouldn't the pro-liberty solution for the US be to remove federal tax and burdens that punish business here?
    How can we achieve your pro-liberty solution? I suggest this:

    So long as relatively few have to endure the pain of market intervention, nothing will be done about it. Before you misconstrue me as a sadist after making that comment, let me entertain you with this thought:

    Suppose this happens:

    We institute a tariff AND our industries pay high domestic taxes. Something eventually has to give. Eventually, people will arrive at the conclusion that too much taxation across the board is draining the economy. The next step is a revolution.

    But consider the current situation:

    Consumers don't really care right now how much taxation is placed upon domestic industries. It's the oldest trick in the progressive playbook: Tax the wealthiest and keep the lowest income people able to buy whatever junk they want to keep them entertained and satiated. Since there are typically less wealthy people than poorer people, how many people are going to just go out of their way to support lower domestic taxes? This is why I believe AF is correct in that there is a plan to suppress domestic industry, through so-called 'free trade'. You have to keep the number of dependents (crouchers and hand-lickers) higher than the number of self-sufficient people, if you intend to stay in power by means of wealth redistribution.

    Raise tariffs, let everyone (producers and consumers alike) know what taxation feels like, and the system will be reformed.

    (our current government would never allow this to happen, so my suggestion is probably moot)
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 11-05-2010 at 05:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Actually everything is a flat 6.5% import tariff in Switzerland and Cadillac and Jeep are two of the top five cars sold in the country.

    That being said, nowhere in the DoI or Constitution is promoting free trade listed as a duty of government - it is to provide for the common defense, domestic tranquility, and promote the general welfare, protecting individual, not corporate rights.

    Otherwise, add me as a +1 for Anti-Federalist.
    Actually the vaunted commerce clause is the promotion of free-trade (It's sort of funny -- free trade is good for us, not for you suckers). Many of the Founders especially Jefferson who had a bust of Anne Roberte Jacques Turgot the great French liberal economist and free-trader was the head of American free-trade. You know that famous speech of his where he proclaims:

    "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none."

    "The exercise of a free trade with all parts of the world [is] possessed by [a people] as of natural right"

    I thought most of us on RPF were Jeffersonian and not Hamiltonian/Lincoln (who advocated for high tariffs). Apparently, I was wrong
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui mÍme

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

    www.mises.org
    www.antiwar.com
    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    Actually that is factually wrong. Each state has vastly different regulatory burdens, tax burdens, commercial climates, scarce resources, etc. Like I have brought up before, businesses in NH are vastly more competitive than businesses located in NY. Do you honestly believe the people of NY would be better off if they shut off NH because NH was 'stealing' their manufacturing and jobs because NH can compete better than NY (and similarly vice versa -- NH shutting off NY, MD, MA, etc.)?
    True enough, there are differences, but all the states have to abide by the same federal corporate taxation rates and regulations and labor regulations.

    Now, I'm assuming that you don't see the NH advantage as an unfair market distortion do you?

    (I was having that discussion with somebody a week or so ago)
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

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