Just use www.ripplepay.comOriginally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty
Let's start the money system and worry about the laws later. We don't need gold, we can use any real property.
So the fruits of my labor aren't property?
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
Good point!
Of course they are! If you read the link, you would see that, income, sales and property taxes are immoral as they violate the Benson Principle. (Taxation Constitutional Amendment http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=252192)
Ok, read some of the thread. I too think voluntary contributions should be the standard. But how do we decide what to give? Public property I assumed would be purchased from private people with money "volunteered".
A great idea, but how do we implement it? How does each person decide what is "fair" or proper for him to give? If we could solve this riddle, RPF'ers could model that "giving system" and start our own "pseudo government" for the advancement of liberty.
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
Some public property like highways, parks, the sea, do not need to be purchase from private people. They are already public.
If you use the services of the court, it being public property, part of the expense could be paid by the offending party.
National Defense? That could be paid from public property user fees, and of course with voluntary contributions, especially in the times of war. People that are not willing to voluntary pay for their national defense deserve to be conquered!
What is "fair" in public property user fees can be decided by the voice of the people, as long as the law applies to all people equally, respecting their unalienable rights.
Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 10-13-2010 at 12:53 PM.
Perhaps, but a culture with ingrained gun rights and locally co-ordinated militias can certainly defend themselves...
"Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park
Good point!
/agree
One of the biggest reasons I want this so badly is that everything else is completely controlled or heavily influenced by money. The concept of an Honest Money System is, in my book, absolutely #1 most important thing we can do to fix it. No need for me to go into my limited knowledge of details of what we have currently and the fact that it doesnt work or why.
How about this. Romans initially outlawed Interest on debt. That wasn't in the Constitution. Did the Romans have the right idea, or is prohibiting interest period not a part of an Honest Money System?
---
I'm not an economist, and I can't really come up with any good arguments for why the free market shouldn't be allowed to control the value of money, but that by no means says that I concede the debate, just that I know I am gonna get my ass kicked.
Why shouldnt the Free Market be allowed to determine the value of money? I dont know. Ask Ben Franklin, Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, Washington, so on and so forth.
And ya know what else? When the free market didn't have control, and Congress did its job and stayed mostly within the limits of the Constitution in the powers granted to it, the stability of money while government was coining and issuing and regulating the value of, well that worked out pretty well for a hundred years. Give it to the Free Market and you might just as well set up the charter for the next Central Bank yourself. The value of the currency for about a hundred years (not counting the two other Central Banks we had and let their Charters expire) was the Foundation, and the Free Market based and regulated its value between everything else except the value of money and it worked out pretty well. Everything went to hell when money manipulators did their magic of manipulating the money and calling other banks insolvent, hence a run on the banks, and that wouldnt have been a problem if the safekeeping of money itself was also a function of government.
I know you'll shoot that down in like two seconds, but I'll take a potshot at my own statement there as well. The $#@!ers we have in office (I dont have a better word to describe them, all they want to do is $#@! everyone so I think the term used to describe them is perfect) would bend us over ten ways from Sunday, and bring some lubricant. I dont trust maybe but a handful of people in office right now, and I sure as $#@! wouldnt trust them with their constitutionally appointed job functions.
My next massive dilema is the Transition. How do we transition from what we have now to what would be agreed is an Honest Money System?
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
I've thought this as well. But if GOVT is not the one granting the private monopoly on currency (as right now) this is largely not an issue. In the fre market, fiat debt based currency would likely exist. There is very little reason to outlaw it. It's quite simple, as a general rule of thumb, which will garner more support?...a silver 1 OZ coin which is not someone else's liability or a fiat note that is a debt instrument and subject to be paid to someone else at any time if they call the debt?
Additionally, I agree that as in th Constitution, GOVT should only deal with tangible money (Gold, silver for example) that is issued interest free. If a private bank (subject to the reward AND wrath of the free market) decided to issue notes or money as debt plus interest, so be it...they will not be that successful in the long run compared to tanglible debt free money.
As for the transition...pay your debts and BUY COMMODITIES.
For the first time since the Great Depression M3 money supply is CONTRACTING. This is, short term BAD. But if changing currency from debt based to money that is commoditiy based and free market, the system must be starved out.
This contraction in M3 is either going to lead to a world defining awakening/revolution or will allow the PTB to extract more wealth from the people and come back and convince the masses that we need socialism and GOVT run everything to save us all from "the greedy capitalist".
This is an opportunity to be seized. As this get's worse and worse those of us with the knowledge to concisely explain WHY this is all happening will open a lot of people to the concept that our money is dishonest, fascist and the CORE of why this economic model is syphoning the wealth of the middle class back into the hands of the ruling class, keeping the poor down and reverting the economy back to serfdom on a mass scale.
If you pay your debts and put your remaining money into commodities you will be able to retain your hard earned money and be a driving engine of the transition.
"Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park
Is this being officially proposed? It is an excellent and thorough proposal and explanation.
If implemented, then the economic prosperity created by the free markets would be as prosperous, and fun, as the Internet is today. The Internet is awesome because it is "caveat emptor." Hopefully, someday enough people will wake up to the beauty of laissez-faire free markets for all. An amendment like this could do it.
Thank you! I wholeheartedly agree with you! Would you like to officially propose it?
Thanks again!
I would be interested in seeing how much support we could get from the people here on RPF. Maybe we could set-up a poll, get a idea of the amount of support we might get, and acquire feedback?
That is awesome! Do you know how to do it?
Thank you!
Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 10-14-2010 at 11:44 AM.
If the Free Market were to issue nothing BUT fiat based debt currency, that system would collapse under its own weight faster than the one we have right now, that seriously should be a no brainer.
That is the exact thing I do not want to have is for the people to have the power to regulate the power of whatever currency they decide to use. The people should have the ability to use whatever the $#@! they want as a form of currency, but the Govt should be restricted, just as it was before, to issuing no bills of credit (*cough* California IOU's) and only certain forms of payment. Gold, Silver, or cheezeburgers, it doesnt matter to me, as long as it is not an issuance of debt.
If you give the people the power to control the issue of the currency, they will either get manipulated to the same end that we are now experiencing, or they will TRY to vote themselves to increase the value of the money for their own personal gain at the expense of everyone else, and run the public coffers dry.
Issuance of money and regulating its value does not belong in the hands of either the banks, or the people, via setting its value in the Free Market. It needs to be issued by the only entity that can issue currency without interest and without the hidden tax of inflation, and that power must belong to the Government. The value of the currency must be the foundation for all other values to be based on. If the value of the currency is shaky, then we will quickly find that two people trading apples to apples will disagree on how much each apple is worth in exchange for another apple. Money needs to have a rock solid foundation, and to put the power to regulate its value in the hands of the people will rock the boat until it capsizes.
If we want to start a poll, that would be a good one. Now, even though its all over my sig and I spam the forums on occasion, just so people read "Honest Money System" somewhere, I do not claim it is my idea, I am just a big supporter, and really, honestly believe, that every forum member should make this the first priority and the first step towards restoring the republic. Honest Money System should be the hottest topic among forum members. So, /tangent, I'll let someone else start that poll.
Should the people have the power to regulate the value of currency as a commodity in a Free Market? Yes / No
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
I don't see what you mean here. If the people have the power to control the issue of the currency, then that would be in the form of gold, silver, copper, paper IOU, contracts, coffee, wheat, automobile or whatever else they value. I could raise peppers in my back yard and sell them for whatever currency I wanted at that moment. How can this be manipulation? How would I be able to vote a different value for my money?
The government only operates through force. You are advocating that someone put a gun to your head to force you to accept whatever currency the government determines is best. How is that better than what we now have?Issuance of money and regulating its value does not belong in the hands of either the banks, or the people, via setting its value in the Free Market. It needs to be issued by the only entity that can issue currency without interest and without the hidden tax of inflation, and that power must belong to the Government. The value of the currency must be the foundation for all other values to be based on. If the value of the currency is shaky, then we will quickly find that two people trading apples to apples will disagree on how much each apple is worth in exchange for another apple. Money needs to have a rock solid foundation, and to put the power to regulate its value in the hands of the people will rock the boat until it capsizes.
The question should read: Should currency be allowed to operate under free market conditions? Yes/NoIf we want to start a poll, that would be a good one. Now, even though its all over my sig and I spam the forums on occasion, just so people read "Honest Money System" somewhere, I do not claim it is my idea, I am just a big supporter, and really, honestly believe, that every forum member should make this the first priority and the first step towards restoring the republic. Honest Money System should be the hottest topic among forum members. So, /tangent, I'll let someone else start that poll.
Should the people have the power to regulate the value of currency as a commodity in a Free Market? Yes / No
Damian:
Yes if all currency were fiat issued as debt it would collapse. That is exactly why that is not what would occur.
I think you are mistakenly believing that free market money would be very unstable. I would argue that it would be MUCH more stable.
You want the GOVT to regulate the value of money? Have you not looked at GOVT money throughout the last 300 years...? In USA for the last 100 years...?
"Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park
If all Free Market car manufacturers started building paper cars the whole transportation system would collapse! O wait, why are they not making paper cars? O, right, because they are not as good as metal cars.
This is the whole point, truly free market will not issue fiat, debt based currency because people will reject it in favor of much more stable and honest currency, currency which would preserve their purchasing power! Who likes being plundered anyway?
You seriously misunderstand what free market is and how it operates!
You contradict yourself, my friend, If people are free to use anything they wish as currency free from persecution and taxation of the medium of exchange by the government, then Free Market, or in other words the People will determine the value of the medium of exchange.
Just like the value of cars, cell phones, or any other commodity is determined by the Free Market, absent of government force. Money is just another commodity; it is that simple! If you do not want the government to bring “stability”(=force) into iPod, or cucumbers market, because it will destroy that market, as demonstrated by many years of socialism say in Russia, you do not want the government to bring “stability”(=force and coercions) into the currency market, because currency is EXACTLY just like any other commodity, except it happened to be used as a medium of exchange.
There I would agree with you. But honestly I’d prefer the government would get out of money business all together, except perhaps ONCE decree that a “dollar” is x ounces of gold. That’s it.
But if government permitted to COIN money, as under the Constitution, it must be only gold and silver.
But free market can coin money better than government can! And they should be free to do so to check the machinations of the government by the competition provided by unfettered Free Market.
Can the people manipulate the value of cars, iPods, and vegetables? Only inasmuch as Free Market demand will allow. And that is just. If you can arbitrary change the value of your car just by you saying so, then you should be worried about people arbitrary changing the value of Free Market money! It’s just another commodity! That’s all!
When you say they will VOTE themselves to increase the value of the money, you are talking about government FORCE, which this amendment FORBIDS. As people cannot vote on private property, and as they cannot vote the price of turnips or of cars or of iPods, so they cannot vote the value of money, which is simply a commodity that is used as the medium of exchange.
You still do not understand what money is. If you did, you would see the utter ridiculousness of your statement, for it would be equivalent to saying: “Making cars and regulating their value does not belong in the hands of either car dealers or the people, via setting its value in the Free Market. Cars need to be made by the only entity that can make cars without interest of without hidden tax of overproducing them, and that power belongs to the Government.” Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it? But that is what in reality you are saying, because money is just another commodity; that’s all; and you do not understand that.
People have resolve trading apples to apples, or even apples to oranges quite successfully for thousands of years, and that without government force. In fact the freely fluctuating price system of a truly free market is the very thing that makes Free Market work. Because fluctuating price tells the producers when to produce more, or when to produce less, and what products are needed by the consumers. It is the fluctuating price that is the incentive to improve and maintain the quality of the product as well. Freely fluctuating price, free of government force, is not the problem, it is the solution!
Putting this power in the hands of the People via the mechanism of Free Market is much safer place than the governments. If anything, history teaches that with a voice of thunder. What government issued currency is there whose value has not been run into the ground by the government who issued it through legalized counterfeiting and inflation? None! Have you seen gold or silver or any other widely used commodity lose 97% of its value? No!
Free Market can perfect the medium of exchange much better than the government. If you don’t believe me, I suggest you enjoy a government made iPod, it would probably weigh a ton, and a government maid electronic watch, it would probably be the size of a man-hole cover!
I agree with you there!
Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 10-15-2010 at 12:28 PM.
Just so we dont get in a quote war (not taking any of this personally so no sweat), I need to point out one of the biggest reasons I "think" putting control of the value of the money in the hands of the people is because I dont "think" that is what we had before.
What was wrong with anything prior to 1913? And was that a Free Market controlled currency?
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
Prior to 1913 we had more of a free market in currencies, but fractional reserve fraud was rampant in some banks, causing some panics. If the rule of law was allowed to take its course the conniving banksters would have gone to jail, and a more honest 100% commodity backed monetary system would have prevailed. But the banksters got control of the government and interfered with free market by using government force to institute a legal tender and later to confiscate people's gold.
The amendment I am proposing will explicitly and permanently remove government force from the realm of money, because honest monetary system does not need government force to hoist it upon the people, but only a dishonest one.
Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 10-17-2010 at 04:10 PM.
/off topic
You know what is really getting me right now? Why there aren't more people posting at all in this thread...
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
Here is the Poll on the subject:
Free Competition in Currencies Poll
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=264840
Tweaked it again to add "any other taxes" to the prohibition. You know how they like inventing new taxes, this makes it air-tight.
This thread goes well with BUY AN OUNCE OF SILVER AND CRASH JP MORGAN.
We must realize that in order to crash the central planned GOVT endowed oligopolies we MUST be the free market we strive for. We CAN crash them through educated and systematic behaviour.
People do not forget, fiat currency is dependant on CONFIDENCE. Ruin the CONFIDENCE and the game folds like the paper empire it is.
Be the free market money you want.
"Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park
I am pretty sure JPM will crash on its own. The Fed will self-destruct through its destruction of the dollar.
When this happens, actually, before this happens, we need to present to the people true, sound money alternatives.
The value in debating and passing amendments such as this, is to educate the people of the true economic principles of liberty and prosperity.
Agreed. The problem is that when the USD crashes it will be used to usher in a one world currency that is...FIAT.
The Federal Reserve will become The Global Reserve.
"Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park
True. Hence the urgent need to educate ourselves and our neighbors!
I'm opting out of The Global Reserve's Bancor unless it is 100% backed by something of value. Opting out, I'm telling ya... OPTING OUT!
"Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul
Brother Jonathan
I added a poll at the top of this thread. Please vote!
Thanks.
Ron Paul Competing Currencies Can 'End the Fed' Softly
This is the single most important battle we must win to enjoy liberty. Honest Sound Money. Honest dealings shouldn't be so hard to do.
"Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul
Brother Jonathan
Amen. Next to the righteousness of the people, this is the most important issue pertaining to Liberty!
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Connect With Us