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Thread: Herd immunity for anti-vaxers

  1. #1

    Herd immunity for anti-vaxers

    I apologize for previous mistaken information.

    it is NOT true that vaccination protects you sufficiently against infection of the virus, just that your immune system is better prepared for it.

    Over time, if the frequency of encountering infected people increases, so does your risk of being infected (and if you encounter vaccinated people, you're risks of infection are low, even if you were not vaccinated).

    The common response is "so why should I be the sacrificial lamb? why not let the others"? The answer is "because it won't work without teamwork".

    this video below explains herd immunity, NOT intended as fearmongering or medical advice.

    YouTube - How Herd Immunity Works (and Why Anti-Vaccination Is Dangerous)



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  3. #2
    Walt, the pro-vaxers would have a ton more credit if they would just support a couple reasonable things:

    1) Acknowledge that vaccines can have damaging side affects - up to and including death.

    2) Admit that by grouping vaccines together, they show little concern for identifying the source of negative side affects. (Was it vax A, B, C or D that caused a negative side affects? There is no way to know when they are all administered at the same time.)

    3) Admit that they the vaccines are not thoroughly tested. (i.e. Nasal polio was on the market for a good while until it was determined that it caused more polio cases than the injected vaccine. Chicken Pox was touted as a one and done vaccine until it was later determined that it required boosters throughout one's life.)

    4) Allow people to sue the manufactures for damages as with any other product. That's a biggie.

    5) Admit that many vaccines are needlessly administered way before a person would face any reasonable exposure to the disease.

    6) (I would personally like to see) Let people know when a vax is made using cell lines from aborted human fetuses. (Hep A, Chicken Pox, Rubella, others)

    (I'm sure there are more if anybody would like to add.)

  4. #3
    I'm an individual......... herds are for sheeple!

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugerrand View Post
    Walt, the pro-vaxers would have a ton more credit if they would just support a couple reasonable things:

    1) Acknowledge that vaccines can have damaging side affects -up to and including death.

    2) Admit that by grouping vaccines together, they show little concern for identifying the source of negative side affects. (Was it vax A, B, C or D that caused a negative side affects? There is no way to know when they are all administered at the same time.)

    3) Admit that they the vaccines are not thoroughly tested. (i.e. Nasal polio was on the market for a good while until it was determined that it caused more polio cases than the injected vaccine. Chicken Pox was touted as a one and done vaccine until it was later determined that it required boosters throughout one's life.)

    4) Allow people to sue the manufactures for damages as with any other product. That's a biggie.

    5) Admit that many vaccines are needlessly administered way before a person would face any reasonable exposure to the disease.

    6) (I would personally like to see) Let people know when a vax is made using cell lines from aborted human fetuses. (Hep A, Chicken Pox, Rubella, others)

    (I'm sure there are more if anybody would like to add.)
    =============
    DECISIONS,DECISIONS

    oh gee,
    this is a tough one.......
    How, HOW to decide ?

    Lol
    lol
    I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
    ~Thomas Jefferson

  6. #5
    Herd ?
    I am not livestock, to be tagged, prodded, vaccinated, corralled, culled or herded.
    Take your Agenda 21 collectivist bull$#@! elsewhere.

    Thank you.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by krugerrand View Post
    walt, the pro-vaxers would have a ton more credit if they would just support a couple reasonable things:

    1) acknowledge that vaccines can have damaging side affects - up to and including death.

    2) admit that by grouping vaccines together, they show little concern for identifying the source of negative side affects. (was it vax a, b, c or d that caused a negative side affects? There is no way to know when they are all administered at the same time.)

    3) admit that they the vaccines are not thoroughly tested. (i.e. Nasal polio was on the market for a good while until it was determined that it caused more polio cases than the injected vaccine. Chicken pox was touted as a one and done vaccine until it was later determined that it required boosters throughout one's life.)

    4) allow people to sue the manufactures for damages as with any other product. That's a biggie.

    5) admit that many vaccines are needlessly administered way before a person would face any reasonable exposure to the disease.

    6) (i would personally like to see) let people know when a vax is made using cell lines from aborted human fetuses. (hep a, chicken pox, rubella, others)

    (i'm sure there are more if anybody would like to add.)
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by dojo View Post
    i'm an individual......... Herds are for sheeple!
    +2

    Quote Originally Posted by scoutshonor View Post
    =============
    decisions,decisions

    oh gee,
    this is a tough one.......
    How, how to decide ?

    Lol
    lol
    +3

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    herd ?
    I am not livestock, to be tagged, prodded, vaccinated, corralled, culled or herded.
    Take your agenda 21 collectivist bull$#@! elsewhere.

    Thank you.
    +4
    We must picture Hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment. - C. S. Lewis

  8. #7
    krugerrand: Awesome post. Very well summarized points of why many take a non traditional route when dealing with vaccines.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugerrand View Post
    Walt, the pro-vaxers would have a ton more credit if they would just support a couple reasonable things:

    1) Acknowledge that vaccines can have damaging side affects - up to and including death.
    They acknowledge it's been reported, they've not found a good causal link


    2) Admit that by grouping vaccines together, they show little concern for identifying the source of negative side affects. (Was it vax A, B, C or D that caused a negative side affects? There is no way to know when they are all administered at the same time.)
    So by eating, sleeping, exercising, working, regularly daily, we should acknowledge that it makes it harder to identify side effects of each?


    3) Admit that they the vaccines are not thoroughly tested. (i.e. Nasal polio was on the market for a good while until it was determined that it caused more polio cases than the injected vaccine. Chicken Pox was touted as a one and done vaccine until it was later determined that it required boosters throughout one's life.)
    Ok. What is "thoroughly tested"?

    4) Allow people to sue the manufactures for damages as with any other product. That's a biggie.
    Where is that denied?

    5) Admit that many vaccines are needlessly administered way before a person would face any reasonable exposure to the disease.
    What point is there in vaccination if you're waiting for the risk of exposure?

    What is "need" measured by?

    6) (I would personally like to see) Let people know when a vax is made using cell lines from aborted human fetuses. (Hep A, Chicken Pox, Rubella, others)

    (I'm sure there are more if anybody would like to add.)
    this would help their credit?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Herd ?
    I am not livestock, to be tagged, prodded, vaccinated, corralled, culled or herded.
    Take your Agenda 21 collectivist bull$#@! elsewhere.

    Thank you.
    is it collectivist to force NAP on me?

    you're free to be apart from the herd, just don't complain when you're expelled or quarantined.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by WaltM View Post
    They acknowledge it's been reported, they've not found a good causal link
    What are you talking about? I asked for "Acknowledge that vaccines can have damaging side affects - up to and including death." They are advertised as safe in a way that no other medication with known damaging side affects can claim.

    So by eating, sleeping, exercising, working, regularly daily, we should acknowledge that it makes it harder to identify side effects of each?
    My point: "Admit that by grouping vaccines together, they show little concern for identifying the source of negative side affects." There is no reason to administer as many vaccines at the same time as are done. Considering that it could be avoided, why is it not? It is a complete lack of concern about known damaging side affects.


    Ok. What is "thoroughly tested"?
    Not much after the FDA puts their paid for approval on something. Why should I be a guinea pig and not at least compensated as such? Most people that participate in drug trials are paid for their services.


    Where is that denied?
    Why do i waste my time when you are so oblivious.
    http://www.justice.gov/civil/torts/const/vicp/about.htm
    About the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

    The VICP is a program designed to encourage childhood vaccination by providing a streamlined system for compensation in rare instances where an injury results from vaccination.

    Over the past 12 years, the VICP has succeeded in providing a less adversarial, less expensive and less time-consuming system of recovery than the traditional tort system that governs medical malpractice, personal injury and product liability cases. More than 1,500 people have been paid in excess of $1.18 billion since the inception of the program in 1988.

    Individuals who believe they have been injured by a covered vaccine can file a claim against the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims seeking compensation from the Vaccine Trust Fund. The Department of Justice (DOJ), which represents HHS, consistently works to ensure that fair compensation is awarded in every case that meets the eligibility criteria. If found eligible, claimants can recover compensation for related medical and rehabilitative expenses, and in certain cases, may be awarded funds for pain and suffering and future lost earnings. Often, an award is more than $1 million. By protecting the Trust Fund against claims by those who have not suffered a vaccine-related injury, DOJ helps to preserve the Fund for future deserving claimants. Regardless of a claimant’s success under the Program, reasonable attorneys’ fees and costs are paid.

    Vaccines covered under the program include those that protect against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), measles, mumps, rubella (German measles), and polio. The program continues to evolve consistent with medical science, and recently, HHS expanded coverage to four new vaccines: hepatitis B, varicella (chicken pox), Hemophilus influenzae type b, and rotavirus; pneumococcal vaccine will soon be covered, too.

    Another positive result of the program is that costly litigation against drug manufacturers and health care professionals who administer vaccines has virtually ceased. Although an individual who is dissatisfied with the Court’s final judgment can reject it and file a lawsuit in state or federal court, very few lawsuits have been filed since the program began. The supply of vaccines in the U.S. has been stabilized, and the development of new vaccines has markedly increased.
    What point is there in vaccination if you're waiting for the risk of exposure?
    I'm afraid i can't answer that one.

    What is "need" measured by?
    Common sense. New born babies do not need a HepB vaccine. A 6 yr old girl does not need guardisil.


    this would help their credit?
    I meant to type credibility. Being honest and upfront about what they want to force you to inject in a child would go a long way.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugerrand View Post
    What are you talking about? I asked for "Acknowledge that vaccines can have damaging side affects - up to and including death." They are advertised as safe in a way that no other medication with known damaging side affects can claim.
    No, they don't.
    (or, we're talking about different "theys")
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm


    My point: "Admit that by grouping vaccines together, they show little concern for identifying the source of negative side affects." There is no reason to administer as many vaccines at the same time as are done.
    What would be a reason to?


    Considering that it could be avoided, why is it not? It is a complete lack of concern about known damaging side affects.
    How about a complete lack of known side effects?

    Do you avoid everything that "could be"?

    Not much after the FDA puts their paid for approval on something. Why should I be a guinea pig and not at least compensated as such? Most people that participate in drug trials are paid for their services.
    you shouldn't be a guinea pig, so your problem is that not enough testing has been done, if it was, you'd be more ok.


    Why do i waste my time when you are so oblivious.
    http://www.justice.gov/civil/torts/const/vicp/about.htm

    I'm afraid i can't answer that one.
    Common sense. New born babies do not need a HepB vaccine. A 6 yr old girl does not need guardisil.
    where do you get your common sense from?
    Do you consult common sense when you're sick?

    I meant to type credibility. Being honest and upfront about what they want to force you to inject in a child would go a long way.
    Not entirely unfair, I just wanted to know what you were asking.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by WaltM View Post
    is it collectivist to force NAP on me?
    Logical error.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
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    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Logical error.
    show me please?

    it's collectivist to force vaccination and herd immunity on people, but not to force NAP on people?

  16. #14
    Walt, you're a human non sequitur.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugerrand View Post
    Walt, you're a human non sequitur.
    correct, I do not follow the herd if it's about their opinions.

  18. #16
    Anti-vaxers are relatively safe as long as they are a very small minority. As their numbers grow, the herd procection goes down and the risk of an outbreak grows and so does your risk of getting them yourself.

    Remember (though most are not old enough to) that many of the diseases which kids are vaccinated against were the leading cause of death fifty or 100 years ago. More people died of them in a single year than have died in the last 50 years from vaccinations.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 09-09-2010 at 01:28 PM.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Anti-vaxers are relatively safe as long as they are a very small minority. As their numbers grow, the herd procection goes down and the risk of an outbreak grows.

    Rember (though most are not old enough to) that many of the diseases which kids are vaccinated against were the leading cause of death fifty or 100 years ago. More people died of them in a single year than have died in the last 50 years from vaccinations.
    the simulation i posted addresses, that unless there's an 80-90% vaccination (as it'll NEVER EVER be 100%), risk can still be worthy of concern.

    this is assuming again, the frequency of contact and fatality of the disease.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Herd ?
    I am not livestock, to be tagged, prodded, vaccinated, corralled, culled or herded.
    Take your Agenda 21 collectivist bull$#@! elsewhere.

    Thank you.
    Sorry to be bumping this TROLL thread. But someone last night (early morn) dug it up to Negg (-) this comment.
    Though didn't comment in or on the thread themselves. Am curious as to why.
    Curious as to whether they believe this collectivist drivel. or what?
    Why? and why not post in the thread?

    NiceGoing
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=25487
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  22. #19

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Sorry to be bumping this TROLL thread. But someone last night (early morn) dug it up to Negg (-) this comment.
    Though didn't comment in or on the thread themselves. Am curious as to why.
    Curious as to whether they believe this collectivist drivel. or what?
    Why? and why not post in the thread?

    NiceGoing
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=25487
    Most profound apologies, I'm afraid that was *me* --but I thought I clicked on the "Approve" rep, for I wanted to approve (again) of your post. I'll go back there right now and fix the problem--sorry PCosmar, for I think you are AOkay.

    ETA: Nope, it wasn't me. It shows that I gave you a positive rep.
    Last edited by NiceGoing; 10-01-2010 at 10:25 AM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by NiceGoing View Post
    Most profound apologies, I'm afraid that was *me* --but I thought I clicked on the "Approve" rep, for I wanted to approve (again) of your post. I'll go back there right now and fix the problem--sorry PCosmar, for I think you are AOkay.

    ETA: Nope, it wasn't me. It shows that I gave you a positive rep.
    Well I just checked it again. It shows negitive rep. (like I give a $#@!).
    It was just a curiosity as to why an old dead thread would get "rep" in the first place.
    Especially since you hadn't commented in the thread at all (till now).
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  24. #21
    WaltM is most likely back...

    first to spot him wins 1000 reps!
    Those Who Do Not Move, Do Not Notice Their Chains.

  25. #22
    So he was banned? What kind of nonsense is this?
    A king metal slime draws near!

  26. #23
    We have no way of knowing which vaccines/adjuvants/preservatives cause which adverse reactions and whether the levels of such adverse reactions and costs of vaccination outweigh the precise decrease in morbidity and mortality the vaccine would afford without randomised, double-blind placebo-controlled (where the placebo is normal saline instead of a cocktail of the same adjuvants and preservatives as the vaccine) clinical trials on all vaccines.

    Innoculationists tend to magnify the extent, virulence and ease of transmission, especially by the sex vector, of communicable diseases and minimise (and mask through inadequate and improper testing) the seriousness and extent of adverse reactions, like Guillian Barré syndrom, of vaccines and give full credit for reductions in morbidity and mortality to vaccines. If there were a scarlet fever vaccine, innocuationists would credit it solely for the reduction in scarlet fever cases and deaths we've seen in the last 70 years.
    Last edited by johngr; 10-02-2010 at 07:57 AM.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Herd ?
    I am not livestock, to be tagged, prodded, vaccinated, corralled, culled or herded.
    Take your Agenda 21 collectivist bull$#@! elsewhere.

    Thank you.
    Ah, but politics thrives on herd mentality. Good for you if you've escaped it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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