NonStampCollector's Challenge to Theists!
YouTube - ‪Challenge to Theists‬‎
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
I welcome anyone who seeks to challenge the Christian worldview, and we can have a rational and respectful discussion about it. But those who seek to challenge Christianity need to realize that the tools they use to dissect the Christian faith (i.e. the laws of logic, moral standards, scientific inference, etc.) are only made possible by the principles and doctrines of the Christian faith.
As a side note, why not invite NonStampCollector to my next Skype discussion, and we can deal with his "Challenge to Theists" in more detail?
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
He makes a valid point. Even Jesus had to perform miracles to prove who he was. So, why don't Christians today perform miracles publicly to prove G-d's existence?
Jesus said at John 14:12 that his followers would "do even greater things than these". Christians should be performing greater miracles than Jesus performed.
What good is faith? Even though he witnessed Jesus performing miracles, Doubting Thomas had no faith, and yet he is supposed to be in heaven. These are questions that have puzzled me.
"..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth
Saul(Paul) claimed that faith alone is not enough. The Pauline triangle is comprised of faith, good works, and (I forget the last part of the triangle now). Not that I believe Paul, but a number of "Christians" cite him, so I thought that might help you in your knowledge quest.Originally Posted by YumYum
If you want to get really technical and "out there," there are many Christians working in hospitals where we now routinely snatch people from the very edge of death, replace parts of them with artificial parts, and swap the heart of a dead person into the body of a living one so that they'll be healthier for longer. I am aware that non-Christians are in those very same hospitals doing the same things, but I don't see where Jesus said that others would not be doing the same miraclesonly that His followers would be doing greater miracles.
We live in a world so full of miracles that they don't suffice as proof of anything. Miracles tend to be viewed as tricks, and foster violent division among people. Perhaps an omniscient God would know this and stop trying to turn water into wine, knowing it would become fodder for people to argue for years to come rather than offer some conclusive proof of faith.
Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.
Wow, never knew that all of science was created by Christianity, that all morality is determined by Christians, and that all laws of logic were first discovered by Christians.
Oh, that's right, they didn't.
Christianity is a young religion, mankind was fully aware of his own worldview prior to the beginning of Christianity. Therefore, our logic, morals, and scientific abilities can, at most, only be slightly influenced by the religion. Just like any other human ability/social type/etc.
Your arrogance is astounding.
And PS, I guess you are forgetting the years and years when Christianity openly supported or did not oppose fascist regimes, attacked science, and blatantly refused logic in discourse.
LOL FAIL.
Firstly, every button we push today produces a miracle. We carry miracles in our pockets. The screen you're squinting at is miraculous. Aren't we miracled out?
Secondly, I expect Thomas is in heaven, and he performed a service to get there. He wrote the only gospel that is more interested in Jesus' wisdom than in his parlor tricks. Check it out some time.
Last edited by acptulsa; 08-07-2010 at 10:20 AM.
Theocrat, I have an honest question for you.
Precisely what would it require for you to give up the Christian worldview?
I am observing that your worldview doesn't seem to have a null hypothesis, there is no way to disprove it. If you believe morality and empiricism and reason and evidence are, "all made possible by the Christian worldview," then it seems impossible for someone to convince you that it's even possibly wrong. Hence, why would someone want to discuss something with you in the first place?
Again, I mean this as honestly and sincerely as possible.
I'd guess that the third side of the triangle is grace.Saul(Paul) claimed that faith alone is not enough. The Pauline triangle is comprised of faith, good works, and (I forget the last part of the triangle now). Not that I believe Paul, but a number of "Christians" cite him, so I thought that might help you in your knowledge quest.
"The journalist is one who separates the wheat from the chaff, and then prints the chaff." - Adlai Stevenson
“I tell you that virtue does not come from money: but from virtue comes money and all other good things to man, both to the individual and to the state.” - Socrates
This is why I've given up debating with him. With Theocrat, there is no such thing as a discussion.
Well, in order to answer your question, we must first come to understand that there are certain "givens" or axioms in the universe which are necessary in order to understand anything. God must first exist before anyone can try to prove anything. God is the First Cause, and as such, He is the precondition for all intelligent talk about logic, morals, science, truth, etc.
Now, if someone rejects God, they have engaged in a position of irrationality. Why do I say that? Because any alternative view of the world which does not base its metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, aesthetics, or politics upon the absolute authority of God's existence ends up being inconsistent, arbitrary, containing presuppositional tensions, and/or contradictory when trying to justify any realm of thought, action, or language.
It has been shown on these forums numerous times how non-Christians cannot make sense of the world, given their outlook and assumptions about reality, knowledge, and moral standards. For example, when an "atheist" says God doesn't exist because there is no empirical proof to show His existence, that same "atheist" will turn around and appeal to the laws of logic, which themselves are not empirically observed. After all, no one has ever seen a law of logic, for they are conceptual in nature, not subject to space.
Also, "atheists" will say there is no soul/invisible being inside humans, saying we're nothing but a bunch or chemicals and neurons. However, that same "atheist" will turn around and get morally indignant towards murderers, as if there's something inside them beyond chemicals and neurons which gives them free will to choose right behavior from wrong behavior. We could go on and on with example after example about how they act irrationally in those ways.
So, simply put, non-Christians do not live in the ways that their worldview demands them to. In effect, when they appeal to moral standards, use logic, and make scientific inferences, they are living in terms of a Christian outlook of the world, for those things are based on philosophical givens made possible by God.
If someone thinks they, as a non-Christian, can justify things like the laws of logic and moral standards without God, then I welcome them to do so. But each time they do, I will simply show them how, in terms of their own worldview, they are working from the foundations of mine for all the reasons I've stated above. The evidence of God is from the impossibility of the contrary.
Last edited by Theocrat; 08-07-2010 at 02:25 PM.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
Well, I doubt that. I've had plenty of discussions with nonbelievers, and we were able to come to a better understanding of each other's positions. But the facts remain the same, namely, that God exists, and without His existence, you cannot prove anything in this world.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
you are $#@!ing awesome.
The ultimate minority is the individual. Protect the individual from Democracy and you will protect all groups of individualsRightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas JeffersonI must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
I'm sorry Theocrat, but this doesn't really answer my question. I already know that this is your view, I am asking how one who holds it could possibly come to deny it? What would convince you otherwise? If it's impossible, in principle, for someone to convince you that Christianity is wrong, then why would anyone want to talk with you?
Here is the most important part:
Yet there is no process to determine what are the "right" axioms. If there were such a process, it would presumably require some logical selection method, but this very methodology is the thing which we are attempting to construct in the first place! Thus it is self-defeating.
And thus axioms are chosen. Different people choose different axioms, and the ones they choose (I believe) have to do with faith, which is a complete mystery to me.
This is your axiom, that God exists. If you take the existence of God as an axiom, then there's no possible way for one to convince you otherwise. It's like saying, "Suppose the earth is round. Now let's have a discussion about whether the earth is round or flat."...it just doesn't make any sense. It's obvious that people you may encounter do not take that as an axiom, and when two people operate under two different axiom systems debate is meaningless.
Exactly. This is what I mean when I say there is no point in discussing it with him. In the end he just says, "God is axiomatically true," and someone else says, "I disagree." It's a vicious circle.
Agnostics are much easier for me to have a discussion with rather than devout hard-line believers or atheists. Neither side can prove nor disprove their convictions.
Agnostics aren't out to prove or disprove anything, because they are always wanting to learn more, and they keep an open mind.
"..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth
Neither side can prove or disprove anything because there is nothing to prove. The word "God" doesn't refer to anything in particular. Therefore, when you say God, it's just a meaningless word without a referent in reality. And before you can prove something about "God", you need to be able to say who or what God is, but nobody has ever done so.
A non-Christian (or non-religious) person doesn’t have to be an atheist. You’re interchanging the terms.
Last edited by robert68; 08-07-2010 at 07:17 PM.
No we can't.
There is no rational or respectful discussion when one person insists that his own weltanschaunng is true based on circular reasoning and others "cannot account for" their own.
yep.
Philosophically speaking, when we're dealing with transcendentals in the universe (the conceptual things which provide the preconditions for understanding matters of reasoning, moral behavior, natural occurrences, and the like), there are certain things which must be assumed first. So, in that sense, transcendentals (like the sovereign God of the Bible) cannot be falsifiable.
Having said that, if someone is able to justify how, in terms of a non-Christian worldview, things like laws of logic, moral standards, and scientific induction can universally exist in all the ways which comport with our human experience, then I would consider that worldview very seriously. That is where taking challengers to Christianity comes into play.
Of course there is a process for determining what the right axioms are. It comes from what the axiom(s) produces as a result of accepting it as true. For instance, if a materialist says that all we can know is what is based on tangible realities, then he's taken for granted that matter is all that matters. But, as humans, we rely on more than tangible things to derive knowledge and come to truth, such as laws of logic, the scientific method, and moral judgments. So, a materialist's axiom of the nonexistence of intangibles is not true because it refutes itself and contradicts our normal experience as human beings.
Yes, and those who reject the Christian worldview have their own axioms which imply that the existence of God is not true. The burden of proof is on both claims, so it works the other way, too. My position is if you reject the axiom that God exists, then you cannot make sense of your own axioms nor can you disprove mine. I'm not saying that as an empty claim, either. I've presented some reasons why I believe that is so.
One thing that we need to keep in mind in these discussions is that we're dealing with matters of truth, not opinion. Truth is absolute, and it's not first-person relative. Something can be true even if someone doesn't believe it. That is the nature of truth. It is immutable. So, if it is true that God exists and the rejection of God reduces one to absurdity, then complaining that "no one will be able to convince me otherwise from my axiom" is irrelevant. I'm simply saying I have discovered Truth, and I invite others to see what it is, even in terms of their own beliefs. Not everyone can be right, after all. That is logically impossible.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
Just because you disagree doesn't make your position true, sevin. The real issue is why I or any other Christian should accept your claim that God does not exist (or that we can't know anything about Him). Is that a universal imperative which all men should live by, or is it your own personal opinion? That is what is at stake in this controversy.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
rhetorical question
a) you assume there's only Christian and non-Christian worldview, as if they're completely mutually exclusive, share nothing in common, and are irreconcilable (but you would never say that the Jewish weltbild is the same), nor can you establish that ALL Christians even subscribe to your weltblick.
b) you assume we (those who are non-Christian) necessarily have a shared weltbild amongst each other (we may very well have differences)
c) you assume we believe logic, moral, scientific induction all exist universally in an all or nothing dichotomy.
d) even if we explained our weltblick to you, we would ultimately have to admit our axioms, and then you'd call it circular reasoning, we cannot convince you, we can only tell you why it works for us (and why yours doesn't work for us)
We have no interest in telling you we can convince you, because you ask for something you'd never ask yourself had the roles reversed (we'd not either).
[Emphasis mine]
How do you know neither side can prove nor disprove their convictions? As a matter of fact, how are you even able to prove your own assertion? That is a self-refuting claim you've just made. Admitting that a person doesn't know something is one thing, but saying no one can know who God is (or is not) is impossible to prove as true.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
he never claimed he was right or his position was true, nor does he care whether you will acknowledge he is right.
as long as you don't hurt us, we don't care.The real issue is why I or any other Christian should accept your claim that God does not exist (or that we can't know anything about Him).
I don't believe there's any fixed set of universal imperatives all men should live by (nevermind all men and all women). But the imperatives I live by are not invented by me either, I may have my own reasons why I pick them over others, but I did not choose them all voluntarily.Is that a universal imperative which all men should live by, or is it your own personal opinion? That is what is at stake in this controversy.
based on experience, you admitted you won't consider any weltblick that is not your own unless it is your own.
we've admitted that your weltblick does not consider it can be wrong, so it's unworthy of discussion.
Not going there with you, your standard of "proof" is never clear or is otherwise impossible. Yes, we can prove it to ourselves, no, we can't prove it to you.As a matter of fact, how are you even able to prove your own assertion?
That is a self-refuting claim you've just made.That is a self-refuting claim you've just made.
what is this? circle jerk?
so do you admit it's impossible to prove as true that "nobody can know who Flying Spaghetti Monster is" ?Admitting that a person doesn't know something is one thing, but saying no one can know who God is (or is not) is impossible to prove as true.
It is your claim that God doesn't refer to anything in particular, but that is obviously not true for millions of other people. I also want you to realize that you've made the same mistake as another member of this forum when you say "Neither side can prove or disprove anything," because that claim is itself trying to prove something. It just proves that it refutes itself.
When you say nobody has ever proven the existence of God, I wonder if you've ever heard of something called the Scriptures AKA the Bible. Your whole post is just full of empty conjectures that no competent scholar would bother to take seriously.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
No, it doesn't refute itself.
If you say: Prove this about X, and you don't say what X is, then it's impossible to prove or disprove that claim about X.
That's obvious and it's not a self-refuting statement.
Oh, it's quite true that millions of people don't agree on an answer.
If you want proof, look no further than how many different answers we get on this board
Are you expected to prove every claim you make?I also want you to realize that you've made the same mistake as another member of this forum when you say "Neither side can prove or disprove anything," because that claim is itself trying to prove something. It just proves that it refutes itself.
Or can some be your opinion based on observation?
yes, he has, and he doesn't consider that as proof, if that's the best you got, then the argument is over.When you say nobody has ever proven the existence of God, I wonder if you've ever heard of something called the Scriptures AKA the Bible.
yes, lots of scholars would take seriously, just none that you agree with.Your whole post is just full of empty conjectures that no competent scholar would bother to take seriously.
It's already been established what "X" is. We're talking about the Christian worldview in terms of what the Bible (God's own word) tells us about God. It's just that you won't accept those terms as the basis for God to be true. And all I'm saying is your rejection of those terms reduces you to spiritual and philosophical absurdity.
If you say non one can know who God is, then it refutes itself because how do you know that no one can know who God is? That is what I'm getting at.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
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