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Thread: "The Flower" (anti-prohibition animation video)

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    In this case it would, as it certainly has for alcohol. I'm sure there are still some distilleries around, and more power to them.
    When I lived in TN, I regularly bought 2Liters of moonshine. Plenty of people brew their own beer. The mob is currently making loads of cash off of cigarettes up in the NE. The higher the taxes go, the black market starts back up again. Where there is a profit motive, there is a way.



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  3. #32

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    This argument's going to be settled pretty soon anyway. California's going to get quite a bit of revenue from pot sales, and its citizens will be happy. I imagine many states are going to be following suit over the next decade.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenIsForRon View Post
    This argument's going to be settled pretty soon anyway. California's going to get quite a bit of revenue from pot sales, and its citizens will be happy. I imagine many states are going to be following suit over the next decade.
    As long as we have the same legislature that we have now, nothing will change. They will spend all the revenue they get from it all like kids in a candy store. What. A. Joke.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    As long as we have the same legislature that we have now, nothing will change. They will spend all the revenue they get from it all like kids in a candy store. What. A. Joke.
    OK, well the government spending situation will be the same, but the people will be more happy because they get to smoke pot.
    if modern agriculture continues to follow the path it's on now, it's finished. The food-growing situation may seem to be in good shape today, but that's just an illusion based on the current availability of petroleum fuels. All the wheat, corn, and other crops that are produced on big American farms may be alive and growing, but they're not products of real nature or real agriculture. They're manufactured rather than grown. The earth isn't producing those things.. petroleum is! -Masanobu Fukuoka

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    I don't like the analogy in that clip that regulating and taxing it benefited society. I am against the legalization of all drugs because I don't want government regulating and controlling it. I'd rather see possession de-criminalized and I truly wish it could function in the black market without the violence.

    Everyone who says the violence is a result of the fact that it's not legalized, regulated and taxed by the gov't also complains about regulation and taxation by that same gov't. What a dichotomy! Or is it hypocrisy? You can't have it both ways.
    Would you prefer we return alcohol sales to the black market as well, instead of keeping it taxed and regulated as it is now?

    Decriminalization with no taxation or regulation is obviously preferred, but I'd rather people get taxed for having weed than be thrown in prison for it.

    Nice video by the way.
    Last edited by MRoCkEd; 08-03-2010 at 04:21 PM.

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Yeah, that's always worked out well. I can't get over how double-standard people are about this issue.
    What on EARTH makes you think that prohibition is better than having a tax??? Prohibition is the ULTIMATE TAX!! You pay for it with your FREEDOM when you go to fucking jail


    Secondly, like the peace movement, the anti-prohibition movement is mostly made up of progressives. It is unfortunate that they are progressives, but it IS fortunate that they are on our side and we ACTUALLY HAVE people on our side. It is NOT hypocritical to want to end prohibition in favor of taxes!! It's not optimal, but most people who want the taxes, you must realize, are progressives!! We simply prefer paying a tax to going to jail. Can you comprehend how a tax might be better than jail?

    Do you pay income taxes? Yes? Why? Wouldn't you rather be in prison You hypocrite
    Last edited by dannno; 08-03-2010 at 06:19 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    And we have a HUGE addiction problem as a result. Statistics show that most addiction results from the drugs (including alcohol) that are legal, i.e. pharmaceuticals. Addiction is a big problem in this country. I'm not saying we should put the toothpaste back in the tube. And I don't have all the answers, but decriminalizing possession of all illicit drugs - no prison time - should come first. imo.

    And I'm not sure why you think we're not relinquishing control to the gov't if we allow them to regulate and tax illicit drugs.
    Part of the reason illegal drugs are dangerous right now is that people do not know what they are getting. So I can understand if it were regulated in some way, at least you would have a better chance of knowing what you are getting than just getting it off the street.

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenB4Liberty View Post
    Part of the reason illegal drugs are dangerous right now is that people do not know what they are getting. So I can understand if it were regulated in some way, at least you would have a better chance of knowing what you are getting than just getting it off the street.
    The free market is great at regulating things on its own under certain conditions:

    1. Free and open communication between the buyer and seller

    2. Protection of both the buyer and the seller against theft and fraud


    When you have a black market, you take away BOTH of those things. Deborah is confusing the black market with the free market, she is advocating black market but doesn't understand the consequences.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #39

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    Consumption taxes on non-essential items or 'luxury items' is the best form of taxation. Let's face it, if we are going to give the government the power to arbitrate in legal situations and police against theft and fraud it is going to cost them money. I would rather cannabis be taxed than tomatoes or corn or building materials for houses. I would rather oil be taxed than property.

    A tax on cannabis is not the end of the world.. If it's too high, then we can form a black market and people can buy cannabis on the black market or they can grow their own in their back yard.. instead of being thrown in jail the seller would receive a small fine if they are caught.

    We need to allow people to produce cannabis because right now a lot of it is being produced on private land without the knowledge of the land owner, federal land, state land, in homes and neighborhoods instead of commercial space (which requires inspections).
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The free market is great at regulating things on its own under certain conditions:

    1. Free and open communication between the buyer and seller

    2. Protection of both the buyer and the seller against theft and fraud


    When you have a black market, you take away BOTH of those things. Deborah is confusing the black market with the free market, she is advocating black market but doesn't understand the consequences.
    So you're saying companies could make their own pot/cocaine/lsd/etc. like coffee shops in Amsterdam? That's what I'm thinking of, I just don't like the idea of not knowing what I'm getting, in the free market I could see it working.

  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The free market is great at regulating things on its own under certain conditions:

    1. Free and open communication between the buyer and seller

    2. Protection of both the buyer and the seller against theft and fraud


    When you have a black market, you take away BOTH of those things. Deborah is confusing the black market with the free market, she is advocating black market but doesn't understand the consequences.
    You are the one who seems confused if you think we have a truly free market. Mark my words, the black market will become the new free market when shtf. Get used to it.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  13. #42

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    I've noticed Libertarians are the most hypocritical when it comes to this issue. Many are claiming it's baby steps of government regulation which will lead to decriminalization. In my home state, many libertarians are more than pleased to see Medical Cannabis dispensaries operating, and promote them. These MMJ dispensaries are legally protected monopolies of the state. Certain people are granted privileges, and others are excluded.

    Is this where the drugs take the place of critical thinking?

    It will be harder to take the grip of the state (legalization), and give it back to the people where it should have been to begin with (decriminalization).
    Last edited by ninepointfive; 08-16-2010 at 11:51 AM.

  14. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    You are the one who seems confused if you think we have a truly free market.
    That's bologna, I never said anything of the sort. I was talking about how horrible the black market is with drugs because the the enforcement against drugs is so great that there is no way for any free market style self-regulation. Then another poster was saying how great things would be for drugs if there was government regulation. I said that the free market could take care of it, yet here we have the black market not taking care of much at all. I never said there was a free market anywhere.

    When the black market becomes more open and accepted by average every day people, and the state doesn't have the power to enforce against it, then it becomes much more like a free market, because a free market is simply a market without government intervention. A black market, relatively un-enforced, which is what you are imagining is sort of like a free market, the difference is that the government will not settle disputes. However when the black market isn't riled with law enforcement more common a lot of the free market self-regulation principles will come into play, principles that are becoming more predominant today like in areas where medicinal cannabis stores are operating..


    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Mark my words, the black market will become the new free market when shtf. Get used to it.
    Yes, when the amount of enforcement per transaction AGAINST the black market decreases, so if the black market doubles, triples, quadruples and enforcement stays the same, then the black market will act more like a free market.

    What we are TRYING to do here, with cannabis, is end the draconian enforcement. There will still be a black market for cannabis, but it will be too difficult for law enforcement to distinguish between legal and illicit activity as it is related to cannabis. Soooo.. my main point is that by passing Prop 19, the amount of enforcement and regulation for cannabis actually DECREASES. The problem is that you are seeing this as more regulation in the area of cannabis, whereas in reality the regulation is decreasing. Right now, outside of medicinal cannabis, cannabis is completely 100% regulated because it is completely illegal. Prop 19 will make cannabis much less heavily regulated in the legit sector and will allow for a better black market to flourish as well.

    Prop 19 decreases government regulation on cannabis. It doesn't get rid of it, but the regulation is still MUCH less with Prop 19.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninepointfive View Post
    I've noticed Libertarians are the most hypocritical when it comes to this issue. Many are claiming it's baby steps of government regulation which will lead to decriminalization. In my home state, many libertarians are more than pleased to see Medical Cannabis dispensaries operating, and promote them. These MMJ dispensaries are legally protected monopolies of the state. Certain people are granted privileges, and others are excluded.

    Is this where the drugs take the place of critical thinking?

    It will be harder to take the grip of the state (legalization), and give it back to the people where it should have been to begin with (decriminalization).
    No, you're wrong, read my post above, illegal cannabis is 100% regulation. As cannabis dispensaries have flourished, all this has done is increased the availability of cannabis for adults. It is more available for adults, for kids the availability is about the same. Black markets in cannabis can operate more openly because it is more difficult to distinguish the legal from illegal activity. Enforcement on cannabis by cops have decreased significantly. They now almost assume that if somebody has cannabis, it must be medicinal. Just about any adult has the ability to get medicinal cannabis. There are literally hundreds of illnesses you can get a prescription for, including 'women's troubles'. Your argument is completely flawed, the regulation is much less.. the regulation was 100% before, now it is lower, and you aren't happy with this. Doesn't sound very libertarian to me at all.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  16. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Then another poster was saying how great things would be for drugs if there was government regulation. I said that the free market could take care of it, yet here we have the black market not taking care of much at all. I never said there was a free market anywhere.


    I did not say things would be great with government regulation.

  17. #46

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    thought i'd bump this again for the new people that might now have seen it..it is awesome!
    Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

  18. #47

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    bump for 4/20 (1 day late )

  19. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    No, you're wrong, read my post above, illegal cannabis is 100% regulation. As cannabis dispensaries have flourished, all this has done is increased the availability of cannabis for adults. It is more available for adults, for kids the availability is about the same. Black markets in cannabis can operate more openly because it is more difficult to distinguish the legal from illegal activity. Enforcement on cannabis by cops have decreased significantly. They now almost assume that if somebody has cannabis, it must be medicinal. Just about any adult has the ability to get medicinal cannabis. There are literally hundreds of illnesses you can get a prescription for, including 'women's troubles'. Your argument is completely flawed, the regulation is much less.. the regulation was 100% before, now it is lower, and you aren't happy with this. Doesn't sound very libertarian to me at all.
    ok, well take this one for example:

    In the city I used to live in, they just banned dispensaries with a ballot initiative. People with legitimate health problems now have to seek cannabis elsewhere. People with "feminine issues" and other trivial prescriptions have taken the medical issue and made it trivial. The sheriff we ran against (and lost by a narrow margin) even arrested a few doctors handing out prescriptions to people who "don't need them".

    Either way, we now have less dispensaries because the drug is legalized, and not decriminalized.

  20. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninepointfive View Post
    ok, well take this one for example:

    In the city I used to live in, they just banned dispensaries with a ballot initiative. People with legitimate health problems now have to seek cannabis elsewhere. People with "feminine issues" and other trivial prescriptions have taken the medical issue and made it trivial. The sheriff we ran against (and lost by a narrow margin) even arrested a few doctors handing out prescriptions to people who "don't need them".

    Either way, we now have less dispensaries because the drug is legalized, and not decriminalized.
    You live in Ft. Collins by any chance?

    Anyway, there are people who thought cannabis would be legalized in the 70s, it's always been "it'll happen in just a few years" and it never does. California had a good chance and they blew it because (in part, not just them) the black market didn't want to lose money (stupid idea. they could have made more money). Decriminalization is a step in the right direction but it's not perfect. In NC you can have a half oz but anything over that is a crime and even if you're found with just a half oz or less they'll take it and give you a fine. The production, transportation, and sale is still illegal and punishable by time in prison. I'd rather have a system where people could carry as much as they want, have as much as they need, and produce however much they feel is necessary without being arrested.
    Last edited by DerailingDaTrain; 05-07-2012 at 03:40 PM.

  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerailingDaTrain View Post
    You live in Ft. Collins by any chance?
    until recently =)

    how about you?

  22. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninepointfive View Post
    until recently =)

    how about you?
    North Carolina. I only know about you guys because of a certain website and a terrible television show.

  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerailingDaTrain View Post
    North Carolina. I only know about you guys because of a certain website and a terrible television show.
    Which one would that be?

  24. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninepointfive View Post
    Which one would that be?
    It's called "American Weed"

    Edit: Speaking of this show. One of the brothers in it actually seemed pretty cool. In one episode you can see a Ron Paul button on his shirt for almost 1 second.
    Last edited by DerailingDaTrain; 05-08-2012 at 11:17 AM.

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