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Thread: Question for Anti-vaxors (sp?)

  1. #1

    Question for Anti-vaxors (sp?)

    I have a question for the natural health/anti-vaccine people here. I"ve seen the chemicals in vaccines, I see how they can be bad but at the same time I worry about the possibility of polio, pertussis, measles, mumps, rubella and all the other nice diseases that vaccines protect against (I"m not refering to flu, HPV, or chicken pox). Now if I would choose to not vaccinate my children what would be good alternative methods to prevent those diseases I mentioned in the case of an outbreak?

    I'm not trying to create an argument between anti-vacciners and pro-vaccineers here, there have been plenty of threads for that already, I'm looking to get my question answered.

    THanks ahead of time!



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  3. #2
    If you don't want to vaccinate your children, and you want to ensure that they will never get MMR, polio, pertussis, etc., your only choice is to isolate them from all other people.

    MMR, polio vaccines, and the like have been around for a long time, far before the explosion in autism rates. Weigh the risks--personally I'd err on the side of vaccination for at least MMR, but I'd wait and see more results on the others.

    For the record, I am mostly pro-vaccine, so factor that in if need be.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by christagious View Post
    I have a question for the natural health/anti-vaccine people here. I"ve seen the chemicals in vaccines, I see how they can be bad but at the same time I worry about the possibility of polio, pertussis, measles, mumps, rubella and all the other nice diseases that vaccines protect against (I"m not refering to flu, HPV, or chicken pox). Now if I would choose to not vaccinate my children what would be good alternative methods to prevent those diseases I mentioned in the case of an outbreak?

    I'm not trying to create an argument between anti-vacciners and pro-vaccineers here, there have been plenty of threads for that already, I'm looking to get my question answered.

    THanks ahead of time!
    Self-imposed quarantine if an incident of those diseases occurs locally.
    Maxed out to ALL of Ron Paul's campaigns.

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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    If you don't want to vaccinate your children, and you want to ensure that they will never get MMR, polio, pertussis, etc., your only choice is to isolate them from all other people.

    MMR, polio vaccines, and the like have been around for a long time, far before the explosion in autism rates. Weigh the risks--personally I'd err on the side of vaccination for at least MMR, but I'd wait and see more results on the others.

    For the record, I am mostly pro-vaccine, so factor that in if need be.
    isolation isn't easy and no promise in being effective.

    You might actually get away with long standing vaccinations such as MMR, polio, due to the herd immunity effect

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by WaltM View Post
    isolation isn't easy and no promise in being effective.

    You might actually get away with long standing vaccinations such as MMR, polio, due to the herd immunity effect

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
    True enough about the herd effect, but isolation is quite effective in avoiding disease. It's the only truly effective way to avoid everything.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    True enough about the herd effect, but isolation is quite effective in avoiding disease. It's the only truly effective way to avoid everything.
    this guy seems to say otherwise, well, he didn't actually say "the boy in the bubble didn't protect himself", he just said "good hygeine is not enough", meaning isolation might still be
    YouTube - (1/2) Do Vaccines Cause Autism? Correlation vs. Causation

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    If you don't want to vaccinate your children, and you want to ensure that they will never get MMR, polio, pertussis, etc., your only choice is to isolate them from all other people.

    MMR, polio vaccines, and the like have been around for a long time, far before the explosion in autism rates. Weigh the risks--personally I'd err on the side of vaccination for at least MMR, but I'd wait and see more results on the others.

    For the record, I am mostly pro-vaccine, so factor that in if need be.
    Ok, so for the sake of argument, let's say vaccines and autism are connected. What vaccines have been introduced around the time of the autism explosion? Since those couple vaccines have been around for a while what "newer" vaccines are present that we could say that we "should avoid" due to autism fears.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by christagious View Post
    Ok, so for the sake of argument, let's say vaccines and autism are connected.
    They're not, there's not even a good correlation, never mind causation.

    What vaccines have been introduced around the time of the autism explosion?
    That's the point, there's not even
    a) a good definition of autism (definitive, unambiguous, unconfuseable)
    b) a good study of an "explosion of autism" that can't be explained by increased awareness, or increase availability of diagnosis

    the quote below is NOT meant to be scientific or expert advice, but I agree with the assessment and encourage you to find other data.

    But many experts believe these unsociable behaviors were just about as common 30 or 40 years ago. The recent explosion of cases appears to be mostly caused by a surge in special education services for autistic children, and by a corresponding shift in what doctors call autism.


    Since those couple vaccines have been around for a while what "newer" vaccines are present that we could say that we "should avoid" due to autism fears.
    Again, there's been no good case to even show that there's
    a) an increase in autism
    b) a correlation between autism increase + vaccines
    c) causation.

    Therefore, fear of autism is HIGHLY unwarranted.

    I find it incredibly hypocritical (and laughable, but it's not funny because it's harmful) that people claim to oppose or fear vaccines either because "it causes autism" or "drug companies just wanna make money", are utterly unaware, WAKEFIELD WAS CONVICTED EXACTLY FOR MAKING A FAKE STUDY AND FOR HIS OWN FINANCIAL GAIN.

    But if you really want to know, MMR was the original vaccine blamed by Wakefield for causing autistic symptoms, like I said above, today , due to increase hygeine, abundant medical services and overall "herd immunity" you can probably (luckily) get away with skipping MMR vaccination.
    Last edited by WaltM; 07-23-2010 at 10:24 PM.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    True enough about the herd effect, but isolation is quite effective in avoiding disease. It's the only truly effective way to avoid everything.
    You can come in contact with infected people who do not show signs of the disease and get infected yourself (or your child) without knowing it until too late. Then you could also spread it to somebody else who is not inoculated and give them the disease too. You could give it to somebody with a compromised immune system and they may get either extremely ill or even die from it. Avoiding people with diseases you are not vaccinated against is not an easy thing to do knowingly. The only truely effective isolation would be to avoid all people all the time. Be a Bubble Boy (or girl).

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You can come in contact with infected people who do not show signs of the disease and get infected yourself (or your child) without knowing it until too late.
    In reality and practice, YES, which is why I wonder what she means by "isolation".

    Then you could also spread it to somebody else who is not inoculated and give them the disease too. You could give it to somebody with a compromised immune system and they may get either extremely ill or even die from it. Avoiding people with diseases you are not vaccinated against is not an easy thing to do knowingly. The only truely effective isolation would be to avoid all people all the time. Be a Bubble Boy (or girl).
    Does anybody want to debate whether a bubble is more expensive than a shot?

  13. #11
    It's not so much the vaccinations, it's the amount and when they are given.

    30 plus inoculations, some given almost at the time of birth, sets off an immune response that, quite literally, fries the still developing brain and nervous system.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/sch...chedule-pr.pdf
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  14. #12
    why would you avoid the diseases?

    in the past, and still today, people who do not vaccinate have chicken-ox parties, or mumps parties.

    when a kid in the neighborhood gets the disease, parents bring their children over and get their kids infected.

    the kids get the disease, are monitored by their parents and doctors. the overwhelming majority of them survive with no complications and have lifelong immunity because of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pox_party
    Those Who Do Not Move, Do Not Notice Their Chains.

  15. #13
    You make it sound like it is fun. Let's have a party. How about a vaccination party? Less suffering. When the kids in my family got mumps we also gave them to our grandmother who had supposedly also had them as a kid. Chicken pox can become shingles. Measles can cause birth defects. People used to die from most of the diseases which are currently vaccinated for and only lived to be about 50 years old. The risks of the diseases are significantly greater than the risks from the shots.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    It's not so much the vaccinations, it's the amount and when they are given.
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/sch...chedule-pr.pdf
    Thanks for that. I've been arguing debating with the wifey about immunization for our incoming progeny. She comes from a family all about traditional medicine, I come from the complete other side of the spectrum. with that said, I'm not completely against all vaccinations but am of the opinion that they give them too early and too many.

    For example from that pdf:
    Hepatitis B vaccine (HepB). (Minimum age: birth)
    At birth:
    • Administer monovalent HepB to all newborns before hospital discharge
    Why? as long as the family members don't have HepB, the likelihood of getting it is extremely low.
    Transmission
    Transmission of hepatitis B virus results from exposure to infectious blood or body fluids containing blood. Possible forms of transmission include unprotected sexual contact, blood transfusions, re-use of contaminated needles & syringes, and vertical transmission from mother to child during childbirth. Without intervention, a mother who is positive for HBsAg confers a 20% risk of passing the infection to her offspring at the time of birth. This risk is as high as 90% if the mother is also positive for HBeAg. HBV can be transmitted between family members within households, possibly by contact of nonintact skin or mucous membrane with secretions or saliva containing HBV.[15][16] However, at least 30% of reported hepatitis B among adults cannot be associated with an identifiable risk factor.[17]
    I'll be standing guard to make sure they don't try sticking that sh*t into my son on his first day of being in the world.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I'll be standing guard to make sure they don't try sticking that sh*t into my son on his first day of being in the world.
    Good man.

    And they'll try, make no mistake.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  18. #16
    YouTube - Autistic Girl Expresses Profound Intelligence!

    Autistic Girl Expresses Profound Intelligence
    Those Who Do Not Move, Do Not Notice Their Chains.



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  20. #17
    If you're going to get the vaccines for a newborn, stay away from the newer ones (EX: HPV) and if you can, some of the pointless ones (Chicken Pox), and you'll be fine. Waiting in between the shots is recommended as well. I had chicken pox, all my friends had chicken pox, and there was no problem. No reason to inoculate against a disease all of us had twenty years ago and lived through.

  21. #18
    are vaccines safe, and are they *even* effective?

    i follow mary tocco and dr. tenpenny closely.

    http://www.facebook.com/vaccineinfo?v=wall

    http://www.mothering.com/mary-tocco


    Here is a recent note by Dr. Tenpenny on facebook regarding the whooping cough outbreak in Cali. http://ko-kr.facebook.com/note.php?n...73343&comments
    ‎"dancing... is a healthy exercise, elegant and very attractive..." ~ Thomas Jefferson, March 14, 1818

    They hate us for our policies, not our freedoms.

  22. #19
    a natural family physician where i live provides nosodes in case of an outbreak. http://www.thinktwice.com/nosodes.htm
    ‎"dancing... is a healthy exercise, elegant and very attractive..." ~ Thomas Jefferson, March 14, 1818

    They hate us for our policies, not our freedoms.



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