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Thread: Do all Muslims believe in stoning their women?..

  1. #1

    Do all Muslims believe in stoning their women?..

    ....or is this just an Iranian thing?

    Iran to review woman's stoning verdict

    TEHRAN, Iran – The lawyer for an Iranian widow sentenced to be stoned to death for an adultery conviction expressed cautious optimism Saturday after Iran said it will review the decision, which has drawn international condemnation.

    Human rights activists and other officials, however, warned that Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, a 43-year-old mother of two, could still be hanged.

    The outcry over the death sentence is the latest thorn in Iran's relationship with the international community, with the United States, Britain and international human rights groups urging Tehran to stay the execution.

    Stoning was widely imposed in the years following the 1979 Islamic revolution, and even though Iran's judiciary still regularly hands down such sentences, they are often converted to other punishments. The last known stoning was carried out in 2007, although the government rarely confirms that such punishments have been meted out.

    British media reported late Thursday that the stoning would not occur, citing the Iranian embassy in London.

    Mohammed Javad Larijani of Iran's human rights council told the state news agency late Friday that the "review and appeal of the verdict is on the agenda," though he maintained it was not due to outside pressure......

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100710/...l_iran_stoning
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth



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  3. #2
    Neocon propaganda.

    Iran was the most Westernized country in the Middle East until we "helped" the radicals take over.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Neocon propaganda.

    Iran was the most Westernized country in the Middle East until we "helped" the radicals take over.
    I guess I should state my question differently: Does the Koran teach that women must be stoned?
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth

  5. #4
    First, no, it's not all Muslims, since the most devout Muslim I know was living with his parents who don't get along with his wife, and he ended up letting his parents live in his condo while he took his wife and lived in a crappy apartment until he could find a place for his parents, in order to save his wife the grief.

    All the other Muslims I know are generally too busy drinking and sleeping around to bother stoning anyone.

    Secondly, even if they were all in favor of stoning women, it's none of my business if it's not happening in my country. Yeah, that's harsh, but the alternative is a decade of bombing Iranian weddings and creating terrorists and bankrupting the nation and turning our country into a police state... so sorry, but tough $#@!, Muslim woman.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    First, no, it's not all Muslims, since the most devout Muslim I know was living with his parents who don't get along with his wife, and he ended up letting his parents live in his condo while he took his wife and lived in a crappy apartment until he could find a place for his parents, in order to save his wife the grief.

    All the other Muslims I know are generally too busy drinking and sleeping around to bother stoning anyone.

    Secondly, even if they were all in favor of stoning women, it's none of my business if it's not happening in my country. Yeah, that's harsh, but the alternative is a decade of bombing Iranian weddings and creating terrorists and bankrupting the nation and turning our country into a police state... so sorry, but tough $#@!, Muslim woman.
    That says a lot about the character of the Iranian government. If they could stone one of their fellow citizens for enjoying a good lay, they would think nothing of setting off an atomic weapon in this country. Maybe Israel has it right after all.
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    That says a lot about the character of the Iranian government. If they could stone one of their fellow citizens for enjoying a good lay, they would think nothing of setting off an atomic weapon in this country. Maybe Israel has it right after all.
    If the U.S. governments is ok with continuing the war on drugs, which often results in innocent kids being shot to death in their stupid raids, then they are evil enough to drop a nuclear bomb on their own citizens and the entire world. Maybe the Iranians who want to nuke the U.S. are right after all.
    Last edited by low preference guy; 07-10-2010 at 07:12 PM.

  8. #7
    no. do all americans believe in torture of terrorists? no.
    Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by libertybrewcity View Post
    no. do all americans believe in torture of people labeled by the government as terrorists? no.
    expanded for clarity.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    I guess I should state my question differently: Does the Koran teach that women must be stoned?
    Who cares? There are plenty of $#@!ed up passages in the Old Testament and Talmud involving god commanding rape and such. I don't judge the character of all Christians/Jews based on some words in a few dusty old books.

  12. #10
    No, of course not, a decent amount to, but none of the Muslims I know do. Then again, they are secular Iranians and rich westernized Saudis, so I am not giving you a good survey sample

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Neocon propaganda.

    Iran was the most Westernized country in the Middle East until we "helped" the radicals take over.
    Good point.

    Now that Iraq's non-exitent WMDs have been taken care of with close to 100,000 Americans losing lives or limbs and US in two trillion dollar hole, parasite looby seems to be gearing up to send more Americans to die for a foreign country.

    Only good news now is that public has woken up to real threats and sees the agenda of loyal America firsters and their war fetishes.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Annihilia View Post
    Who cares? There are plenty of $#@!ed up passages in the Old Testament and Talmud involving god commanding rape and such. I don't judge the character of all Christians/Jews based on some words in a few dusty old books.
    I care, because Christians and Jews don't stone their women.
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Annihilia View Post
    Who cares? There are plenty of $#@!ed up passages in the Old Testament and Talmud involving god commanding rape and such. I don't judge the character of all Christians/Jews based on some words in a few dusty old books.
    Can I get a citation from the OT of God commanding rape?

  16. #14
    I don't know many Muslims that smoke weed.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by t0rnado View Post
    I don't know many Muslims that smoke weed.
    I know a lot of hindus that do.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by t0rnado View Post
    I don't know many Muslims that smoke weed.
    You're.... you're kidding, right?
    You know that they aren't supposed to drink, right?
    They're not puritans, you know.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by thehunter View Post
    Can I get a citation from the OT of God commanding rape?
    I can give you a citation where G-d in the Hebrew Bible commanded King Saul to kill babies.

    That was three thousand years ago, and Jews stopped stoning women in Jesus day.

    I am asking if the Koran teaches the stoning of women, and (in our modern day) is it only the Iranians that practice this barbaric punishment?
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    I care, because Christians and Jews don't stone their women.
    would they if a theocratic government told them to? or if iran came to the united states, overthrew the government and placed a christian fanatic in power? i could see that happening...
    Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    I care, because Christians and Jews don't stone their women.
    Muslims and Jews are almost identical religions, eye for an eye revenge and heavy punishments for sins. Muslims still seem to be holding on to the fundamentals of their ancient religion whereas most Jews seem to have embraced more liberal modern lifestyles and ideologies. Muslims and Jews have engaged in suicide terrorism for theirs gods, you won't find many Christians doing the same.

    Chtistianity stands out with its message of love for all and turning the other cheek and many other distinctions. In case you didn't know.

    It's no surprise that muslims and jews seemed to have a fomed an alliance to get as many of non-Christians elected to US Congress as possible. Look at recent election results in Minnesota and other areas where Christian candidates lost.
    Last edited by Liberty Star; 07-10-2010 at 07:54 PM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by thehunter View Post
    Can I get a citation from the OT of God commanding rape?
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel 12:11
    Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
    Even with the old-timey wording that sounds like rape-rape to me. A while back, someone on here posted a few passages from the Talmud advocating child molestation as well. Again, I don't judge an entire group of people based on some obscure passages in an ancient book.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Liberty Star View Post
    Muslims and Jews are almost identical religions, eye for an eye revenge and heavy punishments for sins. Muslims still seem to be holding on the fundamentals of their ancient religion whereas most Jews seem to have embraced more liberal modern lifestyles and ideologies. Muslims and Jews have engaged in suicide terrorism for theirs gods, you won't find many Christians doing the same.

    Chtistianity stands out with its message of lave for all and turning the other cheek and many other distinctions. In case you didn't know.
    I know Jews kill, I know Christians kill, but my question is about stoning. Are Iranians the only ones who stone their women?
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    I know Jews kill, I know Christians kill, but my question is about stoning. Are Iranians the only ones who stone their women?
    In some Muslim countries,
    governed by shari’ah law, stoning is still practiced. These countries include Nigeria,
    Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and the United Arab Emirates. At the beginning of 2002, four
    stoning verdicts against women in Islamic states were announced: two in Nigeria, one in
    Sudan and one in Pakistan. All of these were charged with adultery. Stoning punishments
    were issued recently in Nigeria for the crimes of adultery and sodomy.
    In Iran stoning is not practiced currently and even before 2002, stoning was rare
    in Iran, (Although hanging is a common punishment for serious offenses, such as drug-
    smuggling and murder). Because the Iranian Penal Code provides the most complete
    legal formulae for stoning, among the Islamic countries, it is the code that will most often
    be cited in this paper. http://www.cjcj.org/files/comparative_study_0.pdf
    From the bible:

    Deuteronomy 13:6 to 13:10

    If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the
    wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entices
    thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast
    not known, thou, nor thy fathers. (13:6). But thou shalt surely kill him;
    thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards
    the hand of all the people. (13:9)And thou shalt stone him with stones,
    that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD
    thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house
    of bondage. (13:10)
    Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

  26. #23
    I would wager that a vast majority of Iranians condemn stoning as corporal punishment of women. It is just the theocratic elite that tolerate such nonsense.

    I don't know many muslims that smoke weed.
    Then you probably don't know many muslims. I've smoked weed WITH muslims during Ramadan in southern Thailand. They are only supposed to "refrain from eating, drinking, that is in excess or ill-natured; from dawn until sunset."

    I participated in this custom for about three days, fasting during daylight hours. I thought it was a pretty good idea - to teach a person self-restraint at least
    .

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by libertybrewcity View Post
    From the bible:

    Deuteronomy 13:6 to 13:10

    If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the
    wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entices
    thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast
    not known, thou, nor thy fathers. (13:6). But thou shalt surely kill him;
    thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards
    the hand of all the people. (13:9)And thou shalt stone him with stones,
    that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD
    thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house
    of bondage. (13:10)
    Thank you for the link. The article you provided also states:

    The Qur’an (24:2 Surah a Nur) only stipulates 100 lashes for the adultery. When, Prophet Muhammad stoned a number of men and women and so this punishment is Shari’ ahh, Islamic Law. Based on the following Hadiths9 (sayings and actions of ProphetMuhammad or tradition) stoning is the punishment for adultery:

    - The Prophet said: “When unmarried couples fornicate they should
    receive one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. In the cases of
    a married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall
    receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death. If one of the pair is
    unmarried, one hundred lashes and exile for a year.”

    - The Prophet said: “Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until
    she has had her child.” After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her
    chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came
    forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted
    blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet
    prayed over her and she was buried.

    - Malik came to Abu Bakr and said: “I am a base fellow for I have
    committed adultery.” Abu Bakr replied: “Repent before the Lord and
    tell no one else.” The man still felt guilty and went to Umar who gave
    him the same reply. Still feeling guilty he went to the Prophet who
    8 asked if he was ill or mad, married or single. On hearing that Ma’iz was
    healthy and married, the Prophet ordered him stoned to death.

    - The Prophet was told: “My son was employed with this man; he
    committed adultery with his wife. I gave 100 sheep and a slave girl in
    compensation.” The Prophet said: “ Take back your sheep and your
    slave girl. Your son will receive 100 lashes and a year in exile. As the
    adulteress has confessed she will be stoned.”

    How do Muslim men feel about their fellow Muslims stoning women? I have never heard them complain; I've heard Muslim women complain, but not the men.
    "..and on Earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out...while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited Earth." -- Jesus of Nazareth



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by thehunter View Post
    Can I get a citation from the OT of God commanding rape?
    God encouraged rape .... it was his reward system as opposed to stickers on a chart.

    1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

    2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

    They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

    Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

    3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)


    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

    4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

    What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

    5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)


    If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.


    It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".

    6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

    Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

    Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

    This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

    7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

    "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."


    Once again God approves of forcible rape.


    8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)


    They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)


    9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


    10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

    Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    I know Jews kill, I know Christians kill, but my question is about stoning. Are Iranians the only ones who stone their women?
    I don't know if Iran has stoned anyone to death, only news I recall of stonning a girl to death was in Iraq by kurds who happened to be working with us and Israel at the time. This occured AFTER Iraq had been liberated from secular Saddam and was under our occupation:

    http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc071010BH.html

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...rl&btnG=Search



    BTW, I find this focus on Iran while ignoring the plight of following women bit obscene since our tax dollars don't go to Iran:

    Israeli soldier 'shot two women as they waved white flag'

    TelegraphJul 6, 2010 ... Israeli soldier 'shot two women as they waved white flag' ... manslaughter of two Palestinian women who were shot dead while waving white ...
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../israe...hite-flag.html


    If you are not arguing for US attacking Iran for a foreign country's security, then you can ignore this.
    Last edited by Liberty Star; 07-10-2010 at 08:19 PM.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Neocon propaganda.

    Iran was the most Westernized country in the Middle East until we "helped" the radicals take over.
    That probably isn't quite accurate. Some segments were westernized, but you would also see that in Turkey and Egypt too. Generally Iran was a country that has both a fundamentalist and Western culture running alongside each other.

    That Westernized track though had a negative too, as it put Iranian society under the heel of the European financial system. They particularly had to deal with British intrigue, but other powers also got involved at times.
    Interested in politics? Check out Red Racing Horses for daily updates on electoral politics, redistricting, and the presidential campaigns.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum View Post
    I guess I should state my question differently: Does the Koran teach that women must be stoned?
    Does the Bible tell Christians to blow up abortion clinics?

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by PatriotOne View Post
    God encouraged rape .... it was his reward system as opposed to stickers on a chart.

    ...

    10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

    Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
    Quote Originally Posted by Annihilia View Post
    Even with the old-timey wording that sounds like rape-rape to me. A while back, someone on here posted a few passages from the Talmud advocating child molestation as well. Again, I don't judge an entire group of people based on some obscure passages in an ancient book.
    Just to be clear here, I'm looking for specific examples that command rape -- prophecies of doom, spontaneous actions in the name of God, and other indirect references to rape is not the issue here. Annihilia had stated that the OT commanded rape as though it were a holy duty for Jews (and, by extension, Christians). Let's also understand that some of the examples that PatriotOne cite of men taking the wives of conquered nations does not completely rule out consent on the part of the women, especially given the cultural and social considerations of the near east in antiquity.

    Just playing devil's advocate here to make sure we're all clear on what is and isn't allowed in the text!
    Last edited by thehunter; 07-10-2010 at 09:16 PM.

  34. #30
    The endless debate of this thread evidently shows a sensical assertion taht all religious, collective institutions are detrimental to society and negation of individual liberty.
    The finest virtue of a great thinker is the magnanimity with which, as a man of knowledge, he intrepidly, often with embarrassment, often with sublime mockery – offers himself and his life as a supreme sacrifice.

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