View Poll Results: This amendment is consistent with true principles of liberty and I would support it.

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  • Yes.

    42 72.41%
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    16 27.59%
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Thread: Nullification Constitutional Amendment

  1. #31



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  3. #32

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    Already contained within the 10th Amendment and Article VI, so I voted no.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Already contained within the 10th Amendment and Article VI, so I voted no.
    Jury and state nullification are Natural laws, that are in force right now, but not widely understood because of brainwashing and propaganda by the government. Therefore the KEY importance to educate the people to the power they already have. This amendment adds language that was not explicitly in the Constitution (there was no mention of jury and state nullification explicitly).

    It will serve dual purpose: it will educate the people about their true power (the power they ALREADY have), and it will make it infinitely harder for the government to brainwash the people again. In the end it is all about persuasion. The more explicit, the more clear, and the more persuasive the law is, the more likely it is that the people will uphold it to preserve their Liberty. Because in the end, it is the people who must defend the Constitution, because the history undeniably shows that the government will not; and they cannot defend their rights unless they understand and know their rights. This Amendment fixes that flaw in the original Constitution.

    Thanks for posting.
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 09-10-2011 at 10:32 AM.

  5. #34
    Untimely ripped fisharmor's Avatar
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    No. Absolutely not.
    I've been coding all afternoon and this is how I see this statement:
    ( This amendment is consistent with true principles of liberty ) and ( I would support it. )
    ( Evaluates to true ) and ( evaluates to false )
    True and false = false.
    /dorkingout

    Ok, here's the real problem... let me put on my "constitutional scholar" hat for a second and demonstrate how this will immediately fail.
    "Since all political power rests with the people as the creators of the government, and is delegated from them, first to local, then to State, and then to Federal government; thus the people being superior to, and the masters of the government; and the States being the creators, and thus the masters of the Federal government, "

    "Living constitution" Translation, bit by bit:

    People created and validated the government.
    People are the masters of the government - obviously, since they can "vote the bums out". They have ultimate power! Ignore the non-voting people who crossed the government, they don't count, because the government is the people.
    On top of that, they have states they created who created the federal government. That's two layers of validation!
    Therefore government is always valid no matter what it does. See, right there, it's in the constitution now.
    Jury trial? Please, the 28th amendment clearly states that the federal government was correct when it passed the jury abolition act, because it derives its power from the people, and this is government by the people. And look at how much more efficiently we can get convictions now!

    I take the 2nd Amendment as a model. There's stuff in the explanatory clause that gives them the wiggle room they need to do the polar opposite of what it says and disarm entire states... why would it be any different with this amendment?
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  6. #35

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    The only thing the preamble says is that the people are superior to the government,
    so it does not mean that
    "Therefore government is always valid no matter what it does."

    In fact, in the second paragraph it states that [because government is NOT always right] the juries can nullify any and all laws that they deem wrong in the case before them!

    Instead of giving the government "wiggle room," it denies them any and all wiggle room!

    /analysisoff


  7. #36

  8. #37

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    We should do both. The more the merrier! The truth, though, is that my amendment goes FURTHER by enshrining, JURY and state nullification into the Constitution itself. These are very powerful ideas, and correct principles of liberty, which people must remember to remain free and prosperous. This amendment accomplishes just that. The states ALREADY have nullification power; the juries ALREADY have nullification power. They are not using it because they are ignorant of it. So the purpose of this amendment is to educate the population of the power they ALREADY have, and so that this all important knowledge may not be easily again hid from the people, so they may remain free, if they will! Education and persuasion is everything! It is the ONLY way to save the Republic!
    This^^ The 17th amendment is one of the worst ones, and definitely one of the worst ideas to succeed in post-1787 history.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
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  10. #39

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  12. #41
    Untimely ripped fisharmor's Avatar
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    Uh..... srsly? An aircraft carrier?
    Someone's preemptively trying to sink the idea, I guess? (No pun intended...)
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  13. #42

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  17. #46

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    The right of the juries, as the representatives of the people, to nullify any unjust, unconstitutional, or inapplicable law in the case before them, shall not be abridged.
    I'd be lying if i said that this is the most anti-rule-of-law notion that I've ever seen on this board, but it's up there.


    It pretty much says that It doesn't matter what the law is, the jury can rule however it pleases. Laws would no longer have the force of law.
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  18. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    It was always there as a natural unalienable right of the people. Like the first amendment does not grant, but simply acknowledges and protects a preexisting natural right of the freedom of speech, so is this amendment. It does not grant anything; it simply reminds the people of the power they always had! Thus this amendment protects this preexisting unalienable right of the people.



    Things like "Might equals right" are natural laws.

    All of the good laws, all of the "rights" outlined in the constitution are artificial laws.
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  19. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    I'd be lying if i said that this is the most anti-rule-of-law notion that I've ever seen on this board, but it's up there.

    It pretty much says that It doesn't matter what the law is, the jury can rule however it pleases. Laws would no longer have the force of law.
    The only laws that have moral authority are the laws of justice. Any other laws created by legislators, that violate the principles of justice are immoral. Therefore juries are designed as a check against usurping legislators who pass wicked laws. It makes perfect sense.
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 05-17-2012 at 10:54 AM.

  20. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    Things like "Might equals right" are natural laws.

    All of the good laws, all of the "rights" outlined in the constitution are artificial laws.
    Justice exists independent of temporary "might." The laws of justice are absolute and eternal, like the laws of arithmetic or mechanics, etc. This is why I call them Natural Laws, because they exist and operate REGARDLESS of your opinion of them, just like the law of gravity, for instance.

    Your ignorance of the law of gravity, or your dislike of it, will not prevent you from falling once you step off the cliff. So are the laws of Justice. They are eternal and unalterable. Justice ALWAYS fulfills its course, REGARDLESS of your opinion of it. Therefore, Justice is the ULTIMATE MIGHT. So I guess we agree.

    As for the Constitution: inasmuch as its laws violate the eternal Laws of Justice, they are artificial and, in fact, immoral. But whatever law in the Constitution is in harmony with principles of Justice, it is Natural, as justice itself.

    Thus, JUST laws are Natural; and unjust laws are artificial, and have no moral force whatsoever.

    Thanks for your comment.

  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    Justice exists independent of temporary "might." The laws of justice are absolute and eternal, like the laws of arithmetic or mechanics, etc. This is why I call them Natural Laws, because they exist and operate REGARDLESS of your opinion of them, just like the law of gravity, for instance.

    Your ignorance of the law of gravity, or your dislike of it, will not prevent you from falling once you step off the cliff. So are the laws of Justice. They are eternal and unalterable. Justice ALWAYS fulfills its course, REGARDLESS of your opinion of it. Therefore, Justice is the ULTIMATE MIGHT. So I guess we agree.

    As for the Constitution: inasmuch as its laws violate the eternal Laws of Justice, they are artificial and, in fact, immoral. But whatever law in the Constitution is in harmony with principles of Justice, it is Natural, as justice itself.

    Thus, JUST laws are Natural; and unjust laws are artificial, and have no moral force whatsoever.

    Thanks for your comment.
    Law of gravity is also a natural law
    Newton's three laws of motion are natural laws.

    Moral laws are artificial laws. "Justice" is an artificial law. You seem to confuse the concepts of "natural" and "good" Nature knows no good or evil. It knows no morals or justice. It just is.



    Justice ALWAYS fulfills its course, REGARDLESS of your opinion of it.
    I applaud your optimism, but I think you should go read some of AntiFederalist's threads. regarding that issue.
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  22. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    Law of gravity is also a natural law
    Newton's three laws of motion are natural laws.

    Moral laws are artificial laws. "Justice" is an artificial law.
    We differ in definition of the word "natural." I defined it as something that is universal and independent of your opinion of it (like the law of gravity). Defined this way, Justice is natural.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    Nature knows no good or evil. It knows no morals or justice. It just is.
    Wrong. But you will have to wait till the Final Judgment to receive the undeniable proof of it. But you, and everyone else WILL receive that proof!

    Your agnosticism will not dethrone God. You labor under a delusion that it can, but He, like Justice, exists independent of your opinion of Him. I humbly suggest you make him your friend, because with him is all the "might" and all the right, you alluded to before. And if it is only force that you respect, well he got ALL power BECAUSE he is right. This is the case where RIGHT makes MIGHT, even all of it.



    Cheers.
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 05-17-2012 at 12:24 PM.

  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    We differ in definition of the word "natural." I defined it as something that is universal and independent of your opinion of it (like the law of gravity). Defined this way, Justice is natural.

    Wrong. But you will have to wait till the Final Judgment to receive the undeniable proof of it. But you, and everyone else WILL receive that proof!

    Your agnosticism will not dethrone God. You labor under a delusion that it can, but He, like Justice, exists independent of your opinion of Him. I humbly suggest you make him your friend, because with him is all the "might" and all the right, you alluded to before.



    Cheers.
    And that's the big difference between Actual Natural Laws like gravity and fake "natural laws" like morality

    you don't have to wait for gravity to be proven or not. It already has been proven, and it can be proven again, repeatedly.
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  24. #53

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    ..
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  25. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    And that's the big difference between Actual Natural Laws like gravity and fake "natural laws" like morality

    you don't have to wait for gravity to be proven or not. It already has been proven, and it can be proven again, repeatedly.
    I beg to disagree. The laws of morality and justice are proven constantly, though some people fight against them. Only those societies that live in harmony with laws of Justice and morality enjoy peace. Only those individuals who live in harmony with the eternal laws of Justice and morality have peace in their hearts. These are facts attested by experience. You can deny them, but it will not make it otherwise. It is possible to obtain the proof of this for yourself by personal experience, but you cannot force this knowledge upon another until the Final Judgment, where every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. But for now everyone may choose for themselves.

    Peace is real. Happiness is real. You cannot have them unless by abiding the principles of Justice and morality, try as you might. It is a fact. It is no less real than the Sun that shines over your head.

    In fact the most important things in life are invisible, but nonetheless real.
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 05-17-2012 at 12:46 PM.

  26. #55

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    Alabama Nullifies Agenda 21 with Legislation Receiving Signature of Governor

    "Alabama has become the first state to NULLIFY the United Nations Agenda 21, which was agreed upon by International Government in Rio in 1992 at the Earth Summit on Climate Change, to be imposed on sovereign nations, such as the United States of America.

    Alabama SB 477, by Senator Dial, known as the “Due Process for Property Rights Act”, was approved by the Alabama Senate and House, along with achieving a resistant signature from Governor Robert Bentley."

  27. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    I beg to disagree. The laws of morality and justice are proven constantly, though some people fight against them. Only those societies that live in harmony with laws of Justice and morality enjoy peace. Only those individuals who live in harmony with the eternal laws of Justice and morality have peace in their hearts. These are facts attested by experience. You can deny them, but it will not make it otherwise. It is possible to obtain the proof of this for yourself by personal experience, but you cannot force this knowledge upon another until the Final Judgment, where every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. But for now everyone may choose for themselves.

    Peace is real. Happiness is real. You cannot have them unless by abiding the principles of Justice and morality, try as you might. It is a fact. It is no less real than the Sun that shines over your head.

    In fact the most important things in life are invisible, but nonetheless real.
    You should (re)read The Law.

  28. #57

  29. #58

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    How many people here have actually attended a town meeting? Let's go to the next step, how many people who have attended town meetings have stood up and spoke?
    200 years ago, practically the whole town showed up. Today you're lucky to get a dozen people. I have actually been to meetings where it was only me and one other gentleman who is there like clockwork wearing his Vietnam Vet t-shirt and cap. If nobody is going to participate, then liberty is lost. It starts at the town level, the lowest form of government. This is where your voice is the loudest and yet this is also where we remain silent. First the town is allowed to get away with whatever they want. Then the county sees this and they do whatever they want. Then the states see that the people are asleep and they can do whatever they want. Finally the Fed realizes that the people are actually in a coma and here we are today.

    Does anyone here actually think that 100 protesters at the white house is going to be enough to sway anything?

    This is an example from 1981
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=3815,1459048
    This is recent
    http://www.courierpress.com/news/201...r-white-house/
    This is now
    http://www.inquisitr.com/206017/pres...-bill-h-r-347/

    The only thing that the current fascists are going to understand is this from 1968, it will be the only way to get anything done now because too many people decided that they were going to lay down.

    Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.
    Thomas Jefferson

  30. #59

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    Rand Paul calls for Revolt After Health Law Ruling

    “Just because a couple people on the Supreme Court declare something to be ‘constitutional’ does not make it so,”




    State Nullification is the answer!

  31. #60

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    Jury Nullification Passed in New Hampshire!

    Alleluia!!!

    This is BIG! Please, urge your state representatives NOW to do the same in your State!

    Jury Nullification is an ABSOLUTE MUST if Liberty is to be restored!!!

    This is an excellent way to end Obama care and any other overreaching and wicked Federal law! Juries of peers can nulify them on the spot, in the case before them!

    Hurray!

    Do it now, please!

    "Jury nullification, in which jurors refuse to convict defendants under laws they find objectionable or inappropriately applied, is a favored tactic of many libertarians who, rightly or wrongly perceive individual liberty as, at best, a minority taste among their neighbors. They like the idea of a tool that can be wielded on the spot to shield people from powerful control freaks without first having to win a popularity contest. But nullification is useful only if people know about. And last week, New Hampshire's governor signed a law requiring the state's judges to permit defense attorneys to inform jurors of their right to nullify the law."

    http://reason.com/blog/2012/06/29/ne...-nullification
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 07-03-2012 at 12:53 AM.

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