View Poll Results: Should the people be free to transact unimpeded in any currency they choose?

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  • Yes. The people should be free to transact unimpeded in any currency they choose.

    37 94.87%
  • No. The government should force the people by law or taxation to transact only in govnmnt currency.

    2 5.13%
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Thread: Honest Money Constitutional Amendment

  1. #1

    Default Honest Money Constitutional Amendment

    Honest Money Constitutional Amendment

    Fiat monetary system and paper money inflation being some of the greatest enemies of liberty and prosperity of the people, legal tender laws are strictly forbidden.

    Since no individual can rightfully force his neighbor to transact or not to transact in certain medium of exchange, he cannot delegate such authority to his government. Also, free competition in currencies, by the force of Free Market, prevents the government from plundering the people through legalized counterfeiting and debasing of the currency.

    Therefore: the government shall make no law establishing an exclusive form of currency that the people are forced to use in private transactions, neither shall it prevent operation of private currencies, mints, or free competition in currencies among private citizens, nor charge capital gain, sales, or any other taxes, duties or fees on the medium of exchange. The right of the people to transact among themselves in any currency they choose shall not be abridged.



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    Brief explanation of the benefits of this amendment:

    Fiat (unbacked) "money" is the single greatest instrument of plunder ever invented by the mind of man.
    Free Competition in currencies kills fiat
    , because fiat cannot exist without aggressive violence of government forced monopoly, which aggressive violence is the definition of evil, and is the opposite of justice and of Free Market.

    Again, fiat (unbacked) currency is nothing but an instrument of plunder of the people by the government, via legalized counterfeiting and inflation; therefore, Free Market, absent government coercion, will reject such a fraudulent currency, for the simple reason that no one likes being plundered!

    So, Free Competition in currencies slays fiat, and with it welfare state and warfare state, because it makes it impossible for the government to rob and plunder the people, and steal their wealth through legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

    Thus, Free Competition in currencies binds the government down with the chains of sound money, making impossible government plunder via legalized counterfeiting, and therefore, making possible liberty and prosperity of the people.

    Explanation:

    Money rules the world, and he who rules the money rules the world. No law gives government more power than legal tender law, for it creates a government forced monopoly on counterfeiting; allowing politicians and the bankers who bought them to confiscate people's property through the most insidious and deceitful tax of all -- legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

    This one amendment, if implemented, would end government fiat, because it cannot exist without coercion. And government fiat will be rejected in a free market of currencies in favor of a more honest and stable one, such as a 100% commodity based, interest free currency. As the result it would effectively end war-state and welfare state, for it would make it IMPOSSIBLE for the government to fund all these unconstitutional ventures through the evil and insidious robbery known as legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

    This amendment does not force anyone to do anything, but on the contrary, frees people up, to allow competition in currencies, so the good money can crowd out the bad. Imagine, for instance gold or silver money, competing side by side with Federal Reserve Notes. People will soon notice that the purchasing power of their gold money is constantly increasing, while the purchasing power of unbacked paper money is constantly going down. It will have the appearance of prices going up when expressed in Federal Reserve Notes, and at the same time the prices on the same items expressed in gold or silver money going down! Which money do you think people will prefer to get paid in? That money which preserves and increases their purchasing power of course! When this happens people will begin rejecting Federal Reserve Notes in favor of a more sound 100% commodity based currency! Thus once government force is removed from the realm of money and free competition in currencies is allowed, fiat debt based money will end, because they will be rejected by the free market! You do not need legal tender laws to force people to accept good and honest money, but only bad and dishonest ones. The dirty little secret is that you only need legal tender laws if you are going into government forced counterfeiting business. That is the only reason for such laws.

    The problems in our monetary system were created by introduction of improper government force into the realm of money, creating a government forced counterfeiting monopoly known as fiat; therefore the solution is to remove that improper government force, which would kill fiat, and allow Free Competition in Currencies, which will result in establishing of the most stable and honest monetary system known to man by the force of Free Market (most likely 100% commodity based monetary system like gold or silver), because no one likes being plundered.

    Money is just another product that is used as a medium of exchange. And free market can perfect that product just as much as it can perfect a car, an iPod or a light bulb, much better than the government ever can. And if people are truly free, they should be able to choose any medium of exchange they wish, as long as they commit no fraud.

    To criticism that it would produce chaos:

    Any manner of chaos is better than the forced, orderly plunder and confiscation of people's property through legalized counterfeiting and paper money inflation, that is the only alternative to this amendment. Of course, if gold and silver were the only tender used by the government (as Constitution demands) this problem would be largely alleviated, but the problem I see is that the government could (unconstitutionally) make government issued paper receipts for gold or silver to be legal tender, and then inflate the receipts. (This has actually happened in the early 1900's.) If a private bank did this and there was a run on the bank it would go bankrupt, but in case of government they will put taxpayers on the hook for this. (Hence was Roosevelt's forced confiscation of people's gold in 1930's to remedy such a run on banks, so people could not demand their gold anymore.) So it's better explicitly put government out of legal tender business all together. The free market can decide perfectly well what the medium of exchange should be.

    To criticism that these provisions are already implied in the existing Constitution, we say true, (the authority to establish a legal tender,--an exclusive monopoly on the means of exchange,--is not granted in the Constitution, therefore it is denied under the 10th Amendment), but it was already subverted and ignored by the Congress for over a century, so we are adding stronger language in the form of an explicit amendment, so that the Congress may not easily subvert and overturn it again. It's all about persuasion in the end: the more clear, persuasive and explicit the law is, the more likely the people will uphold and obey it to preserve their liberty (the need amply demonstrated by the last 100 years).

    Plus, allowing free competition in currencies is the most harmonious and the least disruptive way to restore an honest and sound monetary system. Let free market decide, or in other words, let the people decide. And then the most efficient and most stable monetary system will naturally emerge, which historically always has been gold and silver. Freedom and prosperity will win out in the end.

    If these six words, "legal tender laws are strictly forbidden" were part of the Constitution, we would've had a very different country now!

    Remember: Government forced Paper = Tyranny; Gold + Silver + Righteousness = Liberty.

    This is the key of power right here. Paper money fraud is what empowers the government to step out of its Constitutional bounds and become a tyrant through counterfeiting and theft; and Gold makes all this for the government impossible, and binds this fraud down, keeping people free and prosperous.

    The best way to restore such honest and stable, 100% commodity based monetary system, is to allow free competition in currencies which is the goal of this amendment.


    Again:
    Paper = Tyranny
    Gold + Silver + Righteousness = Freedom!
    The choice is yours!


    =====================================
    This amendment is a part of 5 amendments that were designed to bring the Constitution into harmony with the Fundamental Principles of Liberty, without which Liberty cannot exist:
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 09-07-2013 at 04:49 PM.



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  3. #2
    Member DamianTV's Avatar
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    I'd support this. Duh.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintian an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    You are Ron Paul's Media!

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    I'd support this. Duh.
    Thank you!

  5. #4

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    Something like this would fix a great many modern day problems.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Something like this would fix a great many modern day problems.
    I agree with you wholeheartedly!!! I think this is key,—key of power, either for tyranny or for liberty: Fiat paper for tyranny; Gold and silver for Liberty. Because gold and silver, if adhered to, break the government's counterfeiting machine!

    Also, 100% commodity based monetary system puts free market in control of money supply, and not the government. I believe these, in part, are the chains Jefferson spoke about, when he said "Let us bind the government down with the chains of the Constitution." 100% gold or silver, or in general, 100% commodity based monetary system, binds the government down with chains as it were, preventing the government from robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

    Fiat paper cannot operate without government force behind it, because it is a fraud! As Jefferson said: "It is error that need the support of government. Truth can stand alone." 100% Gold and silver money do not need government force behind them, because people will accept them willingly, without coercion.

    So, if you end "legal tender" scam, or in other words, you end government force in the realm of money, you end fiat! And when government coercion is ended, through this amendment, 100% gold and silver monetary system will naturally emerge and triumph, without any force on the part of government!

    I am convinced, that Liberty simply cannot exist without honest, 100% commodity based monetary system! Freedom (i.e. absence of government force) is the best way to achieve such an honest system!
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 07-05-2010 at 11:13 AM.

  7. #6

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    Abolish the Fed. Period.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Abolish the Fed. Period.
    The problem is that if you only abolish the Fed, but do not put the government out of "legal tender" business, they will be printing the money instead of the Fed. Not much will change! Your masters will simply change their name and wear different hats, but it will be the same people who will still be robbing you through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. Take France; their central bank is 100% nationalized, but since the government still has the power to declare "legal tender" and FORCE everyone to use their worthless paper, France is much further on the way to full blown socialism than even US.

    It is NOT enough to abolish the Fed. You need to put the government out of "legal tender" business, or in other words, remove government force from the realm of money. That is the only true solution. Only when free market is in control of money, rather than the government, only then freedom is possible.

    Besides, the Fed will abolish itself pretty soon by its destruction of the dollar. And when this happens, the very same people who engineered the collapse will waltz in as saviors on white horses to graciously present you with solutions, which will be more of the same, only under different names. They will give you more fiat, only on larger scale, say an Amero, or SDR, or any other fiat fraud.

    But if you forbid the government from using force in the realm of money, by outlawing "legal tender" scam, you will end government fiat (because it cannot exist without coercion), and thus put free market, or in other words the people, in control of money; then and only then can you have freedom!
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 07-05-2010 at 11:16 AM.

  9. #8
    Member Austrian Econ Disciple's Avatar
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    How has the second amendment protected your right to defend yourself, and to own arms? The fundamental issue is the actual system and its systemic corruption, inherent in its creation. The greatest bulwark to tyranny is not through telling the gun holder to stop because its been penned, but to remove the initiation of force from the equation. Quell the power systems, you quell the corruption and liberty violations, to the bare minimums. I don't see how you expect to control that power.
    Last edited by Austrian Econ Disciple; 07-04-2010 at 07:15 PM.
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui même

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

    www.mises.org
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    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    How has the second amendment protected your right to defend yourself, and to own arms? The fundamental issue is the actual system and its systemic corruption, inherent in its creation. The greatest bulwark to tyranny is not through telling the gun holder to stop because its been penned, but to remove the initiation of force from the equation. Quell the power systems, you quell the corruption and liberty violations, to the bare minimums. I don't see how you expect to control that power.
    Government is not the problem. Whoever controls the money supply controls the empire.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    How has the second amendment protected your right to defend yourself, and to own arms?
    If that amendment was not written in the original Constitution, I do not think we would still have our guns. It takes time to subvert good laws. You have to brainwash the people into letting go of their liberty. It is not easy. It took over 200 years, and we still have the guns. That's why it is important that the good laws be as clear, straight-forward and understandable as possible, as well as the reasons WHY these laws are so, and WHY they are important, so that the people may be enabled so much the better to defend those laws.

    And if you say the government perverts the interpretation, I say, educate the people about State and Jury nullification of unconstitutional law, then the only definition and interpretation that will really count will be the people's! But for that to work, the good law must be stated EXCEEDINGLY plainly and straight-forward. Unfortunately it is not how most of the Constitution was written. But we can fix it with amendments like this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    The fundamental issue is the actual system and its systemic corruption, inherent in its creation.
    If the government is built on correct fundamental principles, that are easily and generally understood and upheld by the people (principles like the Benson principle found here http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewt...p?f=19&t=12347) then government becomes a servant of the people, whose only duty is to do for the people what they can do for themselves, namely to protect their property (not steal it).

    See more here:
    Man, Freedom, and Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    The greatest bulwark to tyranny is … to remove the initiation of force from the equation.
    Exactly! "Legal tender" law is force. It forces you to accept worthless paper, and thus empower the government who prints it, and so robs you through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. This amendment removes government force from the realm of money, and leaves choosing and controlling the medium of exchange in the hands of free market, i.e. the people. And I assure you, control of money is the key of power, that must not be left in the hands of government, if you wish to maintain your liberty and prosperity! Below the righteousness of the people, there is no other more important issue for preserving liberty than an honest monetary system!

    Quote Originally Posted by Austrian Econ Disciple View Post
    I don't see how you expect to control that power.
    Explain to the people the fundamental principles of liberty clearly, including State and Jury nullification, and THEY will control the power!

    State nullification:

    YouTube - Thomas E Woods - Principles of 98

    Jury nullification:
    http://www.freedom-central.net/trialbyjury.html
    (The most brilliant article I have seen on the subject!)
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 07-04-2010 at 10:49 PM.

  12. #11

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    So you want to take issuance of currency completely out of the hands of government? That would mean doing away with Article I section 8, right? Didn't they try that with the Articles of Confederation? And wasnt it a disaster?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    So you want to take issuance of currency completely out of the hands of government?
    Not necessarily. I want to prevent the government from instituting a MONOPOLY on issuance of currency. That's a big difference. If the government's continually depreciating paper is forced to compete side by side with say gold or silver currency that is continually gaining in purchasing power, it will expose the government's robbery of people's purchasing power through legalized counterfeiting and inflation, and people will prefer dealing in a currency that preserves and increases their purchasing power. Thus the government will lose the battle of free market, and an honest, 100% commodity based monetary system will naturally prevail!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    That would mean doing away with Article I section 8, right?
    No. There is no need to do that.

    First of all, under Article I section 8, the Federal government is given power to COIN money, i.e. to impress out of metal. And in Article I section 10, the States are expressly forbidden to deal in anything but gold and silver. So it is clear, that under the Constitution, the only money Federal government is allowed to issue is 100% commodity metallic money, i.e. gold and silver! They are not granted power to PRINT money. They can issue only in metal, and that only in gold and silver! So if the government wants to declare that a dollar is X grams of gold, they are free to do so; they are even free to mint it if they choose; but they are not free to print paper, or to prevent the people from using any medium of exchange they choose in their private transactions.

    Secondly, the Constitution did not grant to the government the authority to establish "legal tender" and to outlaw all other currencies that could be issued by private citizens. That's why we had a lot of currencies afloat in US before "legal tender" scam was enforced in 1913. So under the Constitution the operation of private mints and private currencies is perfectly legal! And forbidding them is perfectly illegal under the 10th Amendment!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Didn't they try that with the Articles of Confederation? And wasnt it a disaster?
    The disaster was the fiat unbacked paper currency issued by the government known as the Continental. It self-destructed as all unbacked currencies do! So, no, they did NOT try what I am advocating. I am advocating freedom. Let people print or mint their own money, and absent government force, all unbacked paper will quickly self-destruct and be replaced with 100% commodity money, the most stable and honest monetary system known to man, because that will be the choice of a truly free market!

    Freedom works! It is the only thing that does work!
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 07-05-2010 at 03:22 PM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    That would mean doing away with Article I section 8, right?
    No need for that:

    The US Constitution in Article I, Section 8, Paragraph 5, states that Congress has the authority to "coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;".

    • Congress has the authority to "coin Money - the Mint.
    • Congress has the authority to regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin - control by rule of law.
    • Congress has the authority to fix the Standard of Weights and Measures - purity of metal and accurate weights.


    The Original U.S. Dollar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar
    On April 2, 1792, Alexander Hamilton, then the Secretary of the Treasury, made a report to Congress having scientifically determined the amount of silver in the Spanish milled dollar coins that were then in current use by the people. As a result of this report, the Dollar was defined[6] as a unit of measure of 371 4/16th grains (24.057 grams) of pure silver or 416 grains of standard silver (standard silver being defined as 1,485 parts fine silver to 179 parts alloy[7]).

    In section 20 of the Act, it is specified that the "money of account" of the United States shall be expressed in those same "dollars" or parts thereof. All of the minor coins were also defined in terms of percentages of the primary coin — the dollar — such that a half dollar contained ½ as much silver as a dollar, quarter dollars contained ¼ as much, and so on.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    Not necessarily. I want to prevent the government from instituting a MONOPOLY on issuance of currency. That's a big difference. If the government's continually depreciating paper is forced to compete side by side with say gold or silver currency that is continually gaining in purchasing power, it will expose the government's robbery of people's purchasing power through legalized counterfeiting and inflation, and people will prefer dealing in a currency that preserves and increases their purchasing power. Thus the government will lose the battle of free market, and an honest, 100% commodity based monetary system will naturally prevail!
    But they don't have a monopoly because they gave their right to issue currency away to the Fed who has control over the amount of money in circulation and how much it costs to borrow it.


    First of all, under Article I section 8, the Federal government is given power to COIN money, i.e. to impress out of metal. And in Article I section 10, the States are expressly forbidden to deal in anything but gold and silver. So it is clear, that under the Constitution, the only money Federal government is allowed to issue is 100% commodity metallic money, i.e. gold and silver! They are not granted power to PRINT money. They can issue only in metal, and that only in gold and silver! So if the government wants to declare that a dollar is X grams of gold, they are free to do so; they are even free to mint it if they choose; but they are not free to print paper, or to prevent the people from using any medium of exchange they choose in their private transactions.
    Secondly, the Constitution did not grant to the government the authority to establish "legal tender" and to outlaw all other currencies that could be issued by private citizens. That's why we had a lot of currencies afloat in US before "legal tender" scam was enforced in 1913. So under the Constitution the operation of private mints and private currencies is perfectly legal! And forbidding them is perfectly illegal under the 10th Amendment!
    So are you saying that if Congress took back their Constitutional responsibility from the Fed, and went back on a gold standard that they couldn't issue reciepts for the gold/silver backed currency?

    Also, my understanding of the Constitution is that it is based in common law, meaning if it is not expressly forbidden, then a thing is okay. What you are suggesting seems to be rooted in Napoleonic law, meaning that if it is not expressly granted then it is forbidden.

    The disaster was the fiat unbacked paper currency issued by the government known as the Continental. It self-destructed as all unbacked currencies do! So, no, they did NOT try what I am advocating. I am advocating freedom. Let people print or mint their own money, and absent government force, all unbacked paper will quickly self-destruct and be replaced with 100% commodity money, the most stable and honest monetary system known to man, because that will be the choice of a truly free market!
    Yes, I am aware that fiat currency is what gov'ts issue when they want to have a war. But under the Articles of Confederation, there were so many different currencies i.e. dutch, english, spanish, etc. And the states themselves often wouldn't honor the currency of another state. This is what I mean by a disaster.


    Freedom works! It is the only thing that does work
    Yes, Freedom works, it's just that getting people in large societies like ours to understand what it really is seems futile at times.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    But they don't have a monopoly because they gave their right to issue currency away to the Fed who has control over the amount of money in circulation and how much it costs to borrow it.
    Ok, Federal Reserve has the monopoly; and it has this monopoly through a legal tender law that was passed by the Congress. Undo the "legal tender" scam, i.e. remove the government coercion, and Fed's fiat comes to not, for people will reject it in favor of gold and silver currency, because it will preserve and increase their purchasing power, rather than lose the purchasing power and have 97% of it stolen, as was the case with Federal Reserve Notes since 1913.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    So are you saying that if Congress took back their Constitutional responsibility from the Fed, and went back on a gold standard that they couldn't issue reciepts for the gold/silver backed currency?
    Yes. The power to print such receipts is not granted to the Congress in the Constitution, therefore it is denied under the 10th Amendment. For which I am very grateful, because you cannot trust the government with it. They have done this before. They overprinted gold certificates before without the gold to back it up. If a private bank does this, and there is a run on the bank, the bankster goes to jail, because he committed fraud. But if a government commits this fraud (as they have done) they will put the taxpayer on the hook for this. So, no, thanks. Let's not allow the government to do it again!

    But it does not mean that you have to give up the conveniences of paper or electronic transactions. No! The Congress can coin gold and silver money, but a private company or a bank can issue paper certificates or electronic transactions fully backed by this 100% commodity money. This way, the paper certificates and computer signals are NOT the money, mere warehouse receipts for the money,--gold and silver, which can be demanded as physical delivery in full at any time, and thus check the scheming bankers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Also, my understanding of the Constitution is that it is based in common law, meaning if it is not expressly forbidden, then a thing is okay. What you are suggesting seems to be rooted in Napoleonic law, meaning that if it is not expressly granted then it is forbidden.
    This is a very important question. The Constitution was written to limit the power of the Fedreal government to very few enumerated powers. Under the 10th Amendment, which Jefferson called the key stone of the Constitution:

    "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    So, in case of the Federal government, if a power is not explicitly granted in the Constitution, it is denied to the Federal government under the 10th Amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Yes, I am aware that fiat currency is what gov'ts issue when they want to have a war. But under the Articles of Confederation, there were so many different currencies i.e. dutch, english, spanish, etc. And the states themselves often wouldn't honor the currency of another state. This is what I mean by a disaster.
    Allow truly free market to operate, unfettered by government force, and the most stable and honest monetary system will prevail, because no one wants his/her purchasing power to be stolen or lost! 100% commodity based currency fits that stable and reliable definition the best. If Gold or silver is money, then their purchasing power is determined by their weight. If Congress wishes to define a dollar as X grams of gold or silver, they are permitted to do so; but even if they didn't, free market would create a standard on its own, that will be famed for its reliability, convenience and trustworthiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Yes, Freedom works, it's just that getting people in large societies like ours to understand what it really is seems futile at times.
    Freedom is nothing more than private property (broadly interpreted, of course, which would include your body, your mind, your conscience, your speech, etc.). Therefore to protect liberty is nothing more or less than to protect private property, because certainly Freedom does not exist without private property! Anything destructive of private property is destructive of liberty, because ultimately private property and liberty are the same. Check out my other post on this subject: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=251255.

    The principles of freedom are simple but sublime, they carry with them their own convincing power. The people will have to embrace these true principles or become enslaved. Because only "the truth shall make you free."
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 07-06-2010 at 09:55 AM.

  17. #16

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    I edited and expanded the previous post. Please take a look.

    Thank you!

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    Ok, Federal Reserve has the monopoly; and it has this monopoly through a legal tender law that was passed by the Congress. Undo the "legal tender" scam, i.e. remove the government coercion, and Fed's fiat comes to not, for people will reject it in favor of gold and silver currency, because it will preserve and increase their purchasing power, rather than lose the purchasing power and have 97% of it stolen, as was the case with Federal Reserve Notes since 1913.
    Indeed. Which is why I believe the first order of business is to abolish the Fed.

    Yes. The power to print such receipts is not granted to the Congress in the Constitution, therefore it is denied under the 10th Amendment. For which I am very grateful, because you cannot trust the government with it. They have done this before. They overprinted gold certificates before without the gold to back it up. If a private bank does this, and there is a run on the bank, the bankster goes to jail, because he committed fraud. But if a government commits this fraud (as they have done) they will put the taxpayer on the hook for this. So, no, thanks. Let's not allow the government to do it again!
    Isn't this fractional reserve banking? In which case, with the Fed gone, it should still be illegal for private banks to do it.


    But it does not mean that you have to give up the conveniences of paper or electronic transactions. No! The Congress can coin gold and silver money, but a private company or a bank can issue paper certificates or electronic transactions fully backed by this 100% commodity money. This way, the paper certificates and computer signals are NOT the money, mere warehouse receipts for the money,--gold and silver, which can be demanded as physical delivery in full at any time, and thus check the scheming bankers.
    Okay, thank you for clearing that up.

    This is a very important question. The Constitution was written to limit the power of the Fedreal government to very few enumerated powers. Under the 10th Amendment, which Jefferson called the key stone of the Constitution:

    "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    So, in case of the Federal government, if a power is not explicitly granted in the Constitution, it is denied to the Federal government under the 10th Amendment.
    I wish someone could drive that point home with Congress. They have taken the "general welfare" clause and the "commerce" clause to new heights (or should I say "lows".)

    Allow truly free market to operate, unfettered by government force, and the most stable and honest monetary system will prevail, because no one wants his/her purchasing power to be stolen or lost! 100% commodity based currency fits that stable and reliable definition the best. If Gold or silver is money, then their purchasing power is determined by their weight. If Congress wishes to define a dollar as X grams of gold or silver, they are permitted to do so; but even if they didn't, free market would create a standard on its own, that will be famed for its reliability, convenience and trustworthiness.
    I agree. I'm just not a fan of competing currencies. I see a clusterf'k with that idea.


    Freedom is nothing more than private property (broadly interpreted, of course, which would include your body, your mind, your conscience, your speech, etc.). Therefore to protect liberty is nothing more or less than to protect private property, because certainly Freedom does not exist without private property! Anything destructive of private property is destructive of liberty, because ultimately private property and liberty are the same. Check out my other post on this subject: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=251255.

    The principles of freedom are simple but sublime, they carry with them their own convincing power. The people will have to embrace these true principles or become enslaved. Because only "the truth shall make you free.
    Agreed. The people will never see freedom for what it truly is until their mindset reverts back to individualism and away from their indoctrinated collectivist thinking. That, to my way of thinking, is the real challenge we face.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Indeed. Which is why I believe the first order of business is to abolish the Fed.
    As I said, Ending the Fed is a good idea, but if you end the Fed but leave the power to declare paper as "legal tender" in the hands of government, ultimately you will not change a thing! The same people will be robbing you through legalized counterfeiting and inflation, only they will do it while using a different name and wearing government hats.

    We must eliminate government force and coercion in the realm of money, if you wish to enjoy freedom and prosperity; which is only possible if you outlaw "legal tender" government medium-of-exchange monopoly scam, and thus allow an honest, 100% commodity based monetary system freely arise, such as 100% gold and silver system. I am convinced that Liberty is quite impossible without such a free, and honest, 100% commodity based monetary system!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Isn't this fractional reserve banking? In which case, with the Fed gone, it should still be illegal for private banks to do it.
    Not necessarily. Fractional reserve fraud existed long before Federal Reserve, and frankly, if a private bank wants to engage in it with a full consent and knowledge of its clients they can do so. (I do not know anyone crazy enough to knowingly and willingly put money into such a bank). And if such a bank fails to deliver the gold or silver upon demand, they should be persecuted for fraud. But the US government has absolutely no authority to engage in "fractional reserve" banking, and in fact, they are violating several provisions of the Constitution when they do so. The Constitution authorizes the Federal government to issue, and the States to deal in, only 100% gold and silver money, and nothing else!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    I agree. I'm just not a fan of competing currencies. I see a clusterf'k with that idea.
    Are you a fan of Freedom? Free market competition is the very thing that insures currency's (or any other product's, for that matter) quality and stability. Remove the competition, and you removed the very mechanism that forces a business to perfect and maintain its product! If people are truly free, they should be free to deal in ANY currency they choose to, as long as they do not defraud anyone!

    If you think that one government forced currency will be more orderly, you could argue that one government forced car model would be more orderly, or one government forced computer model, etc. Yes, it will be more orderly, but it will be the order that is found, say, in a cemetery. It will suck the life out of people's free enterprise and creativity and thus destroy the economy, not to mention create a very fruitful field for government corruption. Above all it is immoral, for government has no right to force anyone to do anything, that you as individual, have no moral right to force your neighbor to do, because the only legitimate authority the government has is what you as individual delegated to it, and you cannot delegate an authority you do not have! So if you, as individual, have no moral right to force your neighbor to use, (or not to use), a particular currency, you have no right to ask your government to force him for you.

    (It's called the Benson principle, and it is one of the Fundamental Principles of Liberty, without which Freedom is impossible. Please check out this: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewt...p?f=19&t=12347)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Agreed. The people will never see freedom for what it truly is until their mindset reverts back to individualism and away from their indoctrinated collectivist thinking. That, to my way of thinking, is the real challenge we face.
    I completely agree with you there!
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 07-06-2010 at 12:16 PM.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    I agree with you wholeheartedly!!! I think this is key,—key of power, either for tyranny or for liberty: Fiat paper for tyranny; Gold and silver for Liberty. Because gold and silver, if adhered to, break the government's counterfeiting machine!

    Also, 100% commodity based monetary system puts free market in control of money supply, and not the government. I believe these, in part, are the chains Jefferson spoke about, when he said "Let us bind the government down with the chains of the Constitution." 100% gold or silver, or in general, 100% commodity based monetary system, binds the government down with chains as it were, preventing the government from robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

    Fiat paper cannot operate without government force behind it, because it is a fraud! As Jefferson said: "It is error that need the support of government. Truth can stand alone." 100% Gold and silver money do not need government force behind them, because people will accept them willingly, without coercion.

    So, if you end "legal tender" scam, or in other words, you end government force in the realm of money, you end fiat! And when government coercion is ended, through this amendment, 100% gold and silver monetary system will naturally emerge and triumph, without any force on the part of government!

    I am convinced, that Liberty simply cannot exist without honest, 100% commodity based monetary system! Freedom (i.e. absence of government force) is the best way to achieve such an honest system!
    You present good strong arguments in this thread and seem to have a good handle on what is necessary to get our liberties back.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

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    When wars are fought, money is spent in the beginning, middle, and end. In any dishonest money system, the only group that really wins is the banks that fund the war.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintian an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    You are Ron Paul's Media!

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    You present good strong arguments in this thread and seem to have a good handle on what is necessary to get our liberties back.
    Thank you very much for your support and encouragement!

    God bless!

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    Thank you very much for your support and encouragement!

    God bless!
    I agree with you whole heartedly. EVERYTHING you said I agree with. I knew the vast majority of what you said, but there were a few small points that I hadn't thought of that really brings a lot of it together.
    Last edited by Seraphim; 07-13-2010 at 06:45 AM.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
    I agree with you whole heartedly. EVERYTHING you said I agree with. I knew the vast majority of what you said, but were a few small points that I hadn't thought of that really brings a lot of it together.
    Thank you!!

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    Not necessarily. Fractional reserve fraud existed long before Federal Reserve, and frankly, if a private bank wants to engage in it with a full consent and knowledge of its clients they can do so. (I do not know anyone crazy enough to knowingly and willingly put money into such a bank)...
    What’s the difference between 100% backed commodity “banking” and the commodity storage business?

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    What’s the difference between 100% backed commodity “banking” and the commodity storage business?
    Not much. It is essentially the same. And paper and computer signals, in this correct scenario, are NOT money, but merely warehouse receipts for the real money--the commodity being held by the bank (secure warehouse).

  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post
    Honest Money Constitutional Amendment
    Fiat monetary system and paper money inflation being some of the greatest enemies of liberty and prosperity of the people, legal tender laws are strictly forbidden.
    Sounds OK, but is it enough? The Constitution specifies coin in specie only. They don't give a damn about that - why would they respect this? Another problem: they will enact legal tender laws anyway and call it something else. This is typical and it seems to work like a charm.

    Thoughts?
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Sounds OK, but is it enough? The Constitution specifies coin in specie only. They don't give a damn about that - why would they respect this? Another problem: they will enact legal tender laws anyway and call it something else. This is typical and it seems to work like a charm.

    Thoughts?
    Good point. The difference here is education. The language of this amendment contains the WHY. It explains WHY legal tender laws are forbidden, because they cause the rise of fiat monetary system and paper money inflation. When the WHY is spelled out in the Constitution itself (in this amendment) the people will be empowered to defend it, because ultimately it is the people who must defend the Constitution, because the government will not.

    Do you have suggestions on improving the language further? I will be glad to hear it!

    Thank you!

    How about this:

    Fiat monetary system and paper money inflation being some of the greatest enemies of liberty and prosperity of the people, legal tender laws are strictly forbidden. Government shall make no law establishing an exclusive form of currency that the people are forced to use in private transactions, neither shall it prevent free competition in currencies among private citizens. The right of the people to transact among themselves in any currency they choose shall not be abridged.

    Is that better? Can we improve it more?

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 07-20-2010 at 03:06 PM.

  29. #28

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    Another tool that the Fed's use to shut down competing monetary systems, especially gold and silver ones is capital gain taxes. We should take care of that too.

    How's that:

    Fiat monetary system and paper money inflation being some of the greatest enemies of liberty and prosperity of the people, legal tender laws are strictly forbidden. Government shall make no law establishing an exclusive form of currency that the people are forced to use in private transactions, neither shall it prevent free competition in currencies among private citizens, nor charge capital gain taxes on the medium of exchange. The right of the people to transact among themselves in any currency they choose shall not be abridged.
    Last edited by Foundation_Of_Liberty; 07-20-2010 at 03:07 PM.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foundation_Of_Liberty View Post

    How about this:
    Fiat monetary system and paper money inflation being some of the greatest enemies of liberty and prosperity of the people, legal tender laws are strictly forbidden. Government shall make no law establishing an exclusive form of currency that the people are forced to use in private transactions, neither shall it prevent free competition in currencies among private citizens. The right of the people to transact among themselves in any currency they choose shall not be abridged.
    Is that better? Can we improve it more?

    Thanks again.
    How about this:
    All money systems must be based upon tangible and non-perishable commodity specie conforming to Article I, Section 10 of this Constitution, at the very least. All paper currencies must denominate said commodities by either weight or volume measure and must be immediately convertible upon demand.
    Note it specifies money systems, leaving open the legitimacy of non-governmental currencies. Also notice that it specifies materially constant measures of "value" - weight and volume - rather than the ambiguous nonsense called "dollar", which signifies nothing measurable and constant. Measurability and constancy are the keystones of sane monetary systems. Without this, there is not inherent controllability and therefore no basis for confidence, save that of ignorance and lassitude. We can readily see how well those have served our interests.

    That said, I ha ve no porblem with fiat currency in principle. In reality, however, the fact that most human beings cannot be trusted to the door with administering such systems, they are therefore wholly impractical and must be avoided like the plague.

    All of this discussion of money systems does, however bring to the fore a deeper problem - one that has not been sufficiently solved even by gold standards... though the latter has thus far worked better than any other. The problem is one of representing value and perhaps more importantly, of stabilizing that representation, which is the way in which value is maintained o ver time. If I work for 30 years, store every penny, sock it away in my mattress, then get hit by a car and spend the next 20 years in a coma, popping out of it and finally returning to my mattress, the value of the stash should not have altered. In our current system, that is clearly not the case due to the built-in inflationary characteristic. The result is that I have been effectively robbed of a good part of that 30 years of working and saving. If hyperinflation struck during that time, I have been effectively robbed of it all. One should not be REQUIRED to assume RISK via investing in order to maintain value. That is as anti-liberty as anything could possibly get.

    So, the question then revolves around what sort of universal value system could we contrive that would allow us to stuff that mattress, go away for 30 years and then come back to a stash whose value remains unchanged. That, me friends, is the $64 question, and until an answer is found, we will always fall prey to the thieves, scoundrels, and mountebanks whose lives revolve around picking the pockets of the good citizens of the nation.

    I've seen bitcoin, but do not yet understand its principle of operation.

    In any event, what is needed is a unit of value-representation that cannot be altered by any means whatsoever - cannot be counterfeited or otherwise debased. Not an easy solution to find, I suspect. Consider gold coin - If I debase the specie 10% from .900 fine to .810 fine, I have upped the supply by 10% (actually a bit more) and who is going to know? How many people spend their days assaying the coinage?

    My first blush swag at a immutable unit of value could be "time". Thoughts?
    Last edited by osan; 07-21-2010 at 11:03 AM.
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    How about this:
    All money systems must be based upon tangible and non-perishable commodity specie conforming to Article I, Section 10 of this Constitution, at the very least. All paper currencies must denominate said commodities by either weight or volume measure and must be immediately convertible upon demand.
    Well, my concern is twofold: first if you allow the government to PRINT say gold certificates as they’ve done in the past, and they overprint it, creating more paper claims than the actual gold they have, (and if a private bank did that and there was a run on the bank it would go bankrupt), but the government cannot go bankrupt, therefore it will put taxpayers on the hook for this. So, I would put the government out of printing business all together.

    Secondly, you can legitimately bind the government to use the kind of money you specified (and I like that! Good work!) but not the people. Your amendment violates the Benson Principle (please see http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewt...p?f=19&t=12347 ) because it gives the government authority that cannot be delegated to it by the individual. Do you have moral right to force your neighbor to transact (or not to transact) in specific currencies? No. Therefore you cannot delegate this authority to your government, because you cannot delegate an authority you do not have.

    Freedom works. Remove government force from the realm of money, and you will allow the operation of unfettered free market; when that happens, government fiat will end because it cannot operate without government force and coercion; thus 100% commodity based monetary system will freely arise, because it is the most honest and stable monetary system known to man, and therefore it will be the free choice of the free market, because no one likes his purchasing power being stolen by government’s printing press. Freedom works. It is the only thing that does work!


    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    That said, I ha ve no porblem with fiat currency in principle.
    Enlighten me please. By definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fiat+money) fiat money is conjured out of nothing and then forced by the government upon the people. Therefore the government who issues and spends such fiat money is able to lay claim to peoples’ goods and services in exchange for worthless paper. How is that just? How is that not plunder? How is that not SOMETHING for NOTHING? Which is actually a definition of theft and fraud.

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Consider gold coin - If I debase the specie 10% from .900 fine to .810 fine, I have upped the supply by 10% (actually a bit more) and who is going to know? How many people spend their days assaying the coinage?
    Even though 100% commodity based monetary system is not 100% counterfeit proof, it is INFINETELY more legal-counterfeit proof than fiat, because fiat itself is fraud. It is MUCH, MUCH easier to legally counterfeit in 0’s and 1’s than in gold bullion! So we must use the system that is the most stable and honest, that we know about.

    Secondly, the purchasing power of say gold, tends to increase with time, so when you come out of the comma in 20 years (per your example), if your savings were in gold currency, your purchasing power has actually increased, (rather than being stolen as in fiat case)! A great thing for those who save money say for a retirement!

    So 100% commodity based currency, especially gold and silver, approach your perfect system most nearly!
    That’s why I said 100% commodity based monetary system is the most honest and stable monetary system known to man!

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    My first blush swag at a immutable unit of value could be "time". Thoughts?
    Problem with time is that you could get sick, or your debtor could get sick. How are they going to trade you their time? And what quality that time will be? It varies from person to person. So there is nothing stable about that! 100% commodity based monetary system works MUCH, MUCH better! In fact, better than anything else we know about!

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