OMG, America, RISE UP:: BP burning sea turtles

[susano]

Oh, I agree there's plenty of blame to go around. I still maintain that the locus of evil that financed all the atrocities that you fret about is the State and its National Bank. Industry alone could never have done it. Remember also, the "Long Walk" and the Reservations are creatures of the FedGov. Modern Indians usually don't seem to mind it so much (at least, the ones I've met and listened to), since they get a lot of kickbacks from the Feds and casinos and such.

I completely concur about the state and banksters. That's the number one reason I supported Ron Paul. Banksters and the Fed are what got me into the liberty movement. I'm not completely sure if the European oligarchs might not have done a lot damage without gov't collusion, though (post colonization). I think, however, if we examine their history, there was always someone providing them money for their conquests, and behind those someones were banksters. That's a different tribe altogether.

[susano]

There was a whole lot of war, a lot of mining, and a lot of bad farming practices. There was even overpopulation in some areas, and certainly there was overfishing by some tribes. You keep saying "they" as if it's one solid group. "Their" respect for nature, even though that doesn't hold true for all tribes. "Their" consciousness of their place within it, even though that doesn't hold true. "Their" awareness that it was crucial to their own survival, even though history doesn't support that in every case. Once again, who is this "they"?

* * *

I'm not the one saying screw the environment. I'm saying screw the Government. There are several of you who believe that the two are the same thing. That is a jaw-dropping thing to see on this forum, I must say.

I don't think the native tribes were monolithic, any more than the "they" who colonized this country were. I woud love an educational thread on how the native tribes destroyed what is now the USA, though.

You haven't seen me equating government and concern for the environment, or that screwing the former means screwing the latter, or protecting the latter means more of the former. I've been very clear, in several threads, that both corporations and gov't, which are ONE creature, are a threat to life, liberty and the entire planet. I believe that both have not only dominated the direction our society has gone in, but that we have been corrupted by them. I include myself, of course, I use their funny money and I use their oil. The thing is, I really want out of this unhealthy, destructive and corrupt paradigm. The destruction of the Gulf has, once again, brought this desire front and center, for me. It's so easy to give up and give in, and to go along. It really sucks that life on earth seems to be a battle. It's hard enough just striving to be a better human being, at the personal level. The whole system is rotten to the core.

[susano]

The ignorance surrounding the sea is astounding, isn't it? No wonder the planet is dying.

We are all connected, people. We ARE the ecosystem. Sea turtles one day, us the next. It's this human stupidity that will be the death of the Earth. And guess what? We are part of the Earth, ignoramuses.

Get over yourselves - the world does not revolve around humanity, but we do revolve around it!

It was Jaques Cousteau who brought the oceans into our living rooms. He, eventually, became quite down on human beings. I'm not an anti lifer, at all (like the elites who want it all for themselves) but I fully understand why Cousteau got to that point. I remember him finding coke cans and PCBs in the water in Antartica and being sickened. His amazing television series should be re-playing, now, so it might help people understand the magnificance of our planet and other life forms. It might help build some appreciation for everything that is at stake.

As an individualist, I reject the hive mentality of the socialist state. I know that drives much of the sentiment about things that are OUTSIDE of the world of politics and government. I see that as a failure. We have to distinguish between being individuals the one level and being part of All That Is on another. We are, indeed, all one when it comes to the ecosystem, Nature, and Creation. What has happened in the Gulf impacts the whole planet, whether one is conscious enough to realize that or not. This is not only where common sense comes in, but empathy.

[klamath]

Currently: for every child one has, their taxes decrease. For, say, a person who has one child or no children, this means they effectively pay for the education of your kids. How's that fair? At minimum, deductions for children need to be taken away. Having children is a choice: you have a kid, you pay for it.

I don't believe in child deductions. It is the government planners trying manipulate society to fit their ideas of utopia through the tax code. Just like you are trying to ram Your ideas of utopia down peoples throats using the power of government.

Yes but cities and suburbs are beaming with hundreds of thousands of single occupancy SUVs and TRUCKs idling for hours in rush-hour traffic everyday. The amount of unnecessary waste is nauseating. Since you only need a "few things" from the city, you and your neighbors could commute together to get these few things. In fact, with train tracks expanded around the country, freight trains could bring these few things to your little corner of the world, and you and your neighbors could pick up these few things from the nearest freight train stop, which is even closer than the city. So it becomes quite affordable.

My nearest neighbor is 7 miles away. And once again you wanting to completely control how I live my life. Your beliefs in civil liberties is pretty well non existent.

I'm sure you will find ways to manage without that illegal mexican. Please remember: that illegal mexican takes away the job of your neighbor down the street who can't compete with starvation wages.

Life imprisonment for a crime that killed nobody?? You are one facist dude.

Again, by purchasing the widget from Mr. Johnson from Norway, you are taking away the job of your neighbor down the street who makes that same widget but charges more for it because he makes it with environmentally friendly production processes.

I said sell a widget not buy. I am bringing wealth and jobs into the country

Link?

Maybe I should just link to a physics textbook. All energy pulled out of the wind changes something. Nothing man or animals do to live goes with out changing the environment. Massive windfarms WILL chang the wind paterns.

Copper is 100% recyclable without any loss of quality whether in a raw state or contained in a manufactured product. Additionally the U.S. is the second largest producer of copper.

And most of that copper comes from one giant open pit mine in the west that I am sure wouldn't be allowed in your environmental utopia.

Dolphins, porpoises, and whales lose their hearing because of these sonic explosions. I agree with you: our dependence on oil has got to end!

You are the one that suggested drilling in the west. Make up your mind with your utopia plans.

You apparently are unaware that oil spills occurred, and still occur, on a constant basis: they are smaller, yes, and they didn't make the news. And they didn't affect humans (which is why you didn't see this in the news). Fishermen in the Gulf of Mexico referred to BP as "Bayou Polluter" before this massive accident.



Clean technology is new: it will get better. Placing a cage around the blades, increasing the height of the blades to be above the flight paths of birds are two quick solutions: if we can send a man to the moon, we can certainly figure this one out. Oil is composed of all kinds of toxins: mixing large amounts from spills in the water is going to kill any life that it touches. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the methods of clean energy are much friendlier in the long run to wildlife and marine life.

Wind energy is thousands of years older technology than fossel fuels and internal compustion engines. Placing a cage around a wind turbine will severely disrupt the efficiency of a wind turbine. How high do you think you need to build a wind tower get above the migratory birds? What kind of massive foundation structures do you think would be required to support towers this high?
Solar energy is also far older with the exception of solar panels however solar panels are nearly as old as the internal combustion engines were when they hit the peak of their technology.

-and having a lax government has poisened the gulf of mexico. Had these forests you speak of been owned by the guy who sold his lands to northern california loggers, it would be in the same situation you are looking at now. -Just because government is bad doesn't mean you get rid of government: it means you make government better. An intelligent, limited, government is the only answer for tragedy of the commons.

Nothing you have suggested is about a limited government. I am not an anarchist and I do believe in limited government. Once you break your ideas down to the nuts and bolts it is massive, massive government, controling even the smallest parts of our lives. Had those lands be in the hands of logger trees would have been cut but wealth would have been created. The government spent over a billion dollars managing these fires and 2OO years of wood is lost. A logging operation never does the harm to the entire ecosystem that a fire does. I am fully aware of what individuals will do to distroy land for money once governments becomes all controling and distructive it does so on a missive scale larger than any other organization and is extremely hard to correct once started down the wrong path.
Man will always have an impact on the environment as all live has an impact on its surroundings.
Yes man has a much higher effect on the environment than other animals however I have to wonder at times that a day may come that every living thing on earth may be blessed to have man. It is NOT a matter of if but when this solar system flings a real extinction lever object in the path of earth and man maybe the only animal on earth that could save almost all spiecies on earth by intervening.

[jmdrake]

The point is no one owns the water. The fundamental issue here is that there is no property rights or ownership on the seas. This is a fundamental flaw that led directly to a lot of environmental damage. If you care about the environment then this must be a huge issue.

Did you miss the whole "LOST" thingy? (Law Of The Sea Treaty). This will basically mean that libertarians who seek to escape they tyranny of government through their own floating islands will eventually have nowhere to go.

[jmdrake]

YouTube - Venice, Louisiana, Boat Captain/ by Catherine Craig

Rise up and demand what exactly? That BP stops corralling and burning oil? Won't that mean that even more oil will reach the shores? Isn't this a "lose-lose" proposition?