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Thread: CA Prop 14: Making Choice Illegal???

  1. #1

    Post CA Prop 14: Making Choice Illegal???

    "Californians, please vote NO on Proposition 14. This is not the change we need. This Top Two system will shut out all but two voices in our November elections, which are the elections that count."

    I just learned about CA Prop 14. If this passes, it looks like it CA will not have a legal choice beyond democrat/republican. Does anyone any more insight on the proposition?



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  3. #2

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    What?? I thought this was for open primaries?!
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #3

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    Wow, that is SNEAKY!!

    Changes the primary election process for congressional, statewide, and legislative races. Allows all voters to choose any candidate regardless of the candidate's or voter's political party preference. Ensures that the two candidates receiving the greatest number of votes will appear on the general election ballot regardless of party preference. Fiscal Impact: No significant net change in state and local government costs to administer elections.
    http://www.voterguide.sos.ca.gov/propositions/14/
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #4

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    Opponents say the measure reduces choice for voters. “Prop. 14 is backed by coporate special interests because it makes it easier to elect corporate Republican candidates like Meg Whitman and Steve Poizner,” as the flyer says.

    In all, proponents have spent more than $4.6 million on the measure. It’s being bankrolled by Gov. Schwarzenegger’s political committee ($2 million)


    I support libertarians, so effort to keep them off ballots peeve me off.

    The article linked above says the current govner is helping bankroll this effort. I have a hard time with a currently elected offical promoting laws rigging elections to ensure he stays in office. I'm sure Arnold would love to get votes since it will be illegal to vote for a librertarian.
    Last edited by dean.engelhardt; 06-07-2010 at 12:45 PM.

  6. #5

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    So instead of a dem primary and gop primary, they are combined into one super primary with all parties. The top two voter getters go to the general election. What would happen in some cases would be the top two vote getters would both be from the same party.

    The net result of this is you better "get out the vote in the primary" and this makes the primary as important as the general election. You can imagine voters who voted for a primary loser won't vote in the general. The thought processes of the voters could change quite a bit in this system.
    " Anyone can become angry. That is easy. But to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose and in the right way - that is not easy." --Aristotle

  7. #6
    Supporting Member cjm's Avatar
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    If I read this correctly, and only one candidate may be selected from the open primary ballot, then this will actually help third parties. I cannot see a major party submitting five candidates to an open primary while the other major party only submits two candidates -- there would be too much risk that the two opposition candidates would be the two appearing on the general election ballot ("the two candidates receiving the greatest number of votes"). To prevent that, some kind of caucus system will be employed so that (R) and (D) parties only submit one candidate each to the open primary. Voters who historically avoided third party candidates in general elections for fear that the greater of two evils might win, can safely vote for any third party candidates that they like in this open primary knowing that the general election will give them a chance to vote for the lesser of two evils if the third party candidate doesn't make the cut.

    Now if the process lets you choose one (D) *and* one (R) *and* one (L), etc, or if it lets a voter choose two candidates, then this will not help third parties.

  8. #7
    Supporting Member cjm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by american.swan View Post
    So instead of a dem primary and gop primary, they are combined into one super primary with all parties. The top two voter getters go to the general election.
    That's my take on it too. This would make the primary election essentially the general election and make the general election essentially a runoff election.

    This doesn't necessarily hurt choice since it mitigates some of the perceived risks in voting for third parties. I'd expect to see some people stray from the major parties in the primary knowing that they get a second shot down the road.

  9. #8

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    bump
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #9

    Default

    bump
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjm View Post
    If I read this correctly, and only one candidate may be selected from the open primary ballot, then this will actually help third parties. I cannot see a major party submitting five candidates to an open primary while the other major party only submits two candidates -- there would be too much risk that the two opposition candidates would be the two appearing on the general election ballot ("the two candidates receiving the greatest number of votes"). To prevent that, some kind of caucus system will be employed so that (R) and (D) parties only submit one candidate each to the open primary. Voters who historically avoided third party candidates in general elections for fear that the greater of two evils might win, can safely vote for any third party candidates that they like in this open primary knowing that the general election will give them a chance to vote for the lesser of two evils if the third party candidate doesn't make the cut.

    Now if the process lets you choose one (D) *and* one (R) *and* one (L), etc, or if it lets a voter choose two candidates, then this will not help third parties.
    you get one vote. persons on the primary ballot don't have party affiliation associated with them.

    I find it odd that not one party, major or otherwise, seems to be FOR prop 14:



    These groups rarely agree on anything...

    Voter guide says:
    “Currently, only two states use “top-two” elections. In 2008, Washington State had 139 races and only ONE incumbent lost a primary. Proposition 14 will protect incumbents.”

    I can see this increasing voter turnout for primary elections in CA, but then diminishing the already crappy turnout for the general election. Major parties can already allow independent voters into their primary as the GOP has done this year, so I'm not buying the 'openness' argument. There's probably a better way to reform voting if we really want it.

    I'm voting No.
    "Do not give in to evil, but proceed ever more boldly against it." -Virgil;Aeneid

  12. #11

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    I'm shocked that this Prop is currently passing! F@#$! Third-party candidates are screwed! Why must it only be 2 candidates, why not top 3? Might as well do away with the primary all together!

    Prop 14 is only going to benefit the big two, and maybe the Dems even more so. My logic is, if a thrid party candidate has the hypothetical support to propel him or herself out of a Prop 14 primary then surely they would do just as well in today's general election.

    However under this prop, you won't even have such an option if perhaps they are only a couple of percentage points away from 2nd place. You also have to factor the time between primary and general elections, which I think is important for gaining traction with third party candidates. I'm for sure going to change my party affiliation considering I won't be able to influence the Republican primaries...
    Last edited by Free Moral Agent; 06-09-2010 at 12:41 AM.
    The Establishment hates Ron Paul because his honesty and integrity expose the rest of them for the moral reprobates they are. Their own conscience cannot bear the sight of him. His very presence condemns them. Their personal greed and ambition cringe at the very thought of Ron Paul.
 - Chuck Baldwin

  13. #12

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    Prop 14 passed. What a shame.

    Proposition results:

    http://vote.sos.ca.gov/returns/props/59.htm


    I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the voters of california for giving me another reason to leave the state. Really, the only thing keeping me here is my wife and her family.
    "Do not give in to evil, but proceed ever more boldly against it." -Virgil;Aeneid

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by phazespace View Post
    Prop 14 passed. What a shame.

    Proposition results:

    http://vote.sos.ca.gov/returns/props/59.htm


    I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the voters of california for giving me another reason to leave the state. Really, the only thing keeping me here is my wife and her family.
    oh yeah... and the weather...and my proximity to a nice beach...

    damn it.
    "Do not give in to evil, but proceed ever more boldly against it." -Virgil;Aeneid

  15. #14

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    Statistically this will help the democrats in this state. More times than not the democrats will end up with two candidates in november.
    I doesn't hurt third parties at all.
    What it does do is create a system where one hell of a lot of back room deals are going to go on so major parties can keep the number of primary candidate to an absolute minimum.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by phazespace View Post
    my proximity to a nice beach...

    damn it.
    That's the ONLY thing keeping me here









    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Free Moral Agent View Post
    I'm shocked that this Prop is currently passing! F@#$! Third-party candidates are screwed! Why must it only be 2 candidates, why not top 3? Might as well do away with the primary all together!
    What is the real net change though? When was the last time a 3rd party won any of those races?

  18. #17

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    I honestly think the primary process is pretty useless. It seems this passing of prop 14 has a sentiment that "any change is good". The wrong attitude to have, IMHO.

    Some real change ideas a friend and I discussed:
    - One election. No primaries. Easy ballot access.
    - Party blindness in election laws (i.e. the state shouldn’t officially recognize parties, nor should it make decisions about current elections based on previous election results).
    - Single term limits (i.e. no more incumbents). (I might be willing to bend to a 2-term limit)

    (that was basically plagiarizing a response from a college who feels the same way I do about prop 14...)

    <shrug> I dunno. The current process is flawed. Prop 14 doesn't make it any better.
    "Do not give in to evil, but proceed ever more boldly against it." -Virgil;Aeneid

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    What is the real net change though? When was the last time a 3rd party won any of those races?
    Probably not much of a change, but now the chances will be even more likely. Wrong way, California!
    The Establishment hates Ron Paul because his honesty and integrity expose the rest of them for the moral reprobates they are. Their own conscience cannot bear the sight of him. His very presence condemns them. Their personal greed and ambition cringe at the very thought of Ron Paul.
 - Chuck Baldwin





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