POLL: Do you support the new AZ immigration law?

[bchavez]

I see libertarians split on this issue....

Ron Paul seems to think it's a bad idea... please vote in the poll to voice your opinion.

Thanks!

I'm not sure where I stand yet....

- States Rights
- Constitution

[Zippyjuan]

Libertarians should be opposed to the police being able to randomly stop people to check their papers based on nothing more than the fact that that they "might" appear to be an illegal alien. This sounds more like the old USSR than the USA. Ron is right to oppose this.

[lynnf]

yes! feds won't do their duty to protect this country, so have to do it in their place. kick da bums (illegals) out! oh, by-the-way -- I'm not a libertarian! Paleocon all the way - if I was a libertarian, I'd be in the libertarian party.

lynn

[puppetmaster]

I voted no, but where do you draw the line. Do borders of a country not count for anything?
Is it the that anyone form any country can come without regulation? If that's the case, then why have borders at all. Almost like a one country for the whole planet....

[spudea]

illegal immigrants are the current scapegoats by big government statists. They use the issue as justification to take more of our money for new laws and new enforcement.

"...first (they came) for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . and by that time there was no one left to speak up."

[Agorism]

If the police ask you about immigration status, you can always ask for Miranda.

ie...You don't have to answer their inquiry. I don't see what the big deal is unless I'm missing something important about this law.

[treyfu]

End the welfare state, and open the borders. But only in that order...

[MelissaWV]

If the police ask you about immigration status, you can always ask for Miranda.

ie...You don't have to answer their inquiry. I don't see what the big deal is unless I'm missing something important about this law.

Then you are still suspected, and you will be detained until your immigration status can be determined.

[spudea]

If the police ask you about immigration status, you can always ask for Miranda.

ie...You don't have to answer their inquiry. I don't see what the big deal is unless I'm missing something important about this law.

Miranda rights are not applied to non-citizens. Therefore under the AZ law, if police have "reasonable suspicion" that you are not a citizen, when in fact you are, they can violate all your rights. If you take them to court, and the judge says, "well the cop had a suspicion, too bad for you". And the cop might get probation for a week.

[YumYum]

There is a much broader effect that this law will have other then the violation of undocumented worker's human rights. This bill will encourage other states to follow suit in passing similar bills; all of which is in defiance of the federal government. This will further drive a wedge between the states and the federal government. It will force Washington to implement immigration reform.

Also, the protests by Mexicans won't subside. This could get ugly. This could be the spark that divides our country and brings on civil unrest. This will force the hand of Obama to make reforms regarding immigration. If he doesn't, the Mexicans will turn on him, blaming him, and the Democrats will not get the undocumented worker's votes.

[MRoCkEd]

Libertarians should be opposed to the police being able to randomly stop people to check their papers based on nothing more than the fact that that they "might" appear to be an illegal alien. This sounds more like the old USSR than the USA. Ron is right to oppose this.

Yep

[libertygrl]

They need to go after the corporations that hire them in the first place. I saw the documentary Food Inc. last week and they showed how Tyson Foods placed help wanted ads in Mexican newspapers for jobs at the factories. Then our government would act like they were actually doing something about illegal immigration, by sending ICE out to go arrest the illegal employees while not doing anything about those that hired them.

There was a time when Americans made a decent wage working in meat packing plants. It was considered similar to working for Ford or GM. But then with the growth of the fast food industry, they wanted fast and cheaper production. So those American workers could no longer make a living and that's when they started hiring illegals. Bottom line, it's both the poor illegals and working poor Americans who are pitted against one another while these fat cats profit from it. Disgusting! If they would go after the people doing the hiring, the illegal immigrants will self deport.


If you haven't see then film I urge everyone to check it out:

YouTube - Food Inc - Official Trailer [HD]

[erowe1]

Libertarians should be opposed to the police being able to randomly stop people to check their papers based on nothing more than the fact that that they "might" appear to be an illegal alien.

I definitely agree that a law authorizing what you describe is wrong. But is that what this AZ bill actually does? Or do they have to have some other reason to stop them first, like they're speeding. If the latter, it's not quite the same thing.

[TastyWheat]

I'm glad AZ is doing something, but this is going too far. Just go after the businesses. If nobody will hire them then they'll leave on their own. This is basically an attempt to maintain the welfare state though and protectionism for American labor.

[dannno]

Wow, great poll results RPF

It is ridiculous to take a militant anti-liberty approach against illegals, ESPECIALLY before taking away the free benefits.

I mean, who really wants to lure these people over just so we can have a fascist police round-up?

I bet none of the people who voted "Yes" have brown skin..

[awake]

The immigration problem is going to fix itself. When the welfare state drops so will the immigration rate. Keep your eye on the emigration number though.

[tremendoustie]

If I own property, I have a right to let anyone on it I choose. The bureacrats don't own my property, and they have no right to demand cash or hoop jumping from those who I wish to allow on it (nor do they have a right to go after me for allowing people on my property who haven't paid them sufficient cash, or jumped through a sufficient number of their hoops).

There's no reason people should have to beg and bribe a bunch of bureaucrats to enter what is supposedly a free country.

[Southron]

The welfare state will never end without bloodshed.

[awake]

What if the government put a sign up in front of all retail stores in the country that says everything in the store is now free; how long would it take for the shelf's to empty? Better yet, what if the owners of the stores plead with the government to change their policy and send in the armed police to stop and remove the masses from taking everything. Instead the government writes on the sign a condition, only those who can get a government access card can get in the doors to get the free goods? Does this fix the problem?

The answer is to take the signs down and let the owners decide prices and access.

[RM918]

Wow, great poll results RPF

It is ridiculous to take a militant anti-liberty approach against illegals, ESPECIALLY before taking away the free benefits.

I mean, who really wants to lure these people over just so we can have a fascist police round-up?

I bet none of the people who voted "Yes" have brown skin..

Come on, the racist argument is below you.

And I voted no by the by.

[dannno]

Come on, the racist argument is below you.

And I voted no by the by.

LOL, you're right, the racist argument is below me, good catch..

Let me clarify... what i meant was that the person who voted 'yes' is not a racist necessarily, but that their rights wouldn't be affected by similar legislation in their area. I would be very surprised to see someone with brown skin who would be affected whether or not they are citizens vote "Yes" in the poll.

[tremendoustie]

What if the government put a sign up in front of all retail stores in the country that says everything in the store is now free; how long would it take for the shelf's to empty? Better yet, what if the owners of the stores plead with the government to change their policy and send in the armed police to stop and remove the masses from taking everything. Instead the government writes on the sign a condition, only those who can get a government access card can get in the doors to get the free goods? Does this fix the problem?

The answer is to take the signs down and let the owners decide prices and access.

Exactly right.

[Danke]

If I own property, I have a right to let anyone on it I choose. The bureacrats don't own my property, and they have no right to demand cash or hoop jumping from those who I wish to allow on it (nor do they have a right to go after me for allowing people on my property who haven't paid them sufficient cash, or jumped through a sufficient number of their hoops).

There's no reason people should have to beg and bribe a bunch of bureaucrats to enter what is supposedly a free country.

Oh? You have allodial title and pay no property taxes?

See FDR's quote below \/

[tremendoustie]

Oh? You have allodial title

Land ownership is land ownership. It is acquired by homesteading, and passed by willing and voluntary exchange. The gang calling themselves "the government" has done nothing to have a legitimate claim on the property.

and pay no property taxes?

Yes, I get mugged on a yearly basis. What of it?

See FDR's quote below \/

They certainly act like they own everything, but I am surprised he would say so so explicitly. Are you sure that quote is not apocryphal? Do you have a source?

[Danke]

Land ownership is land ownership. It is acquired by homesteading, and passed by willing and voluntary exchange. The gang calling themselves "the government" has done nothing to have a legitimate claim on the property.

Yes, I get mugged on a yearly basis. What of it?

They certainly act like they own everything, but I am surprised he would say so so explicitly. Are you sure that quote is not apocryphal? Do you have a source?

I agree, but the point was if you don't pay...especially when we give them the presumption. And do things like record the deed with the county as the Trustee, etc.


Don't remember where I got the quote.

[lester1/2jr]

So if I'm against the iraq war I still have to pay for it, but Arizona is allowed to have it's own immigration policy. that's really fair. they get to vote on sending troops to iraq in response to 9/11 which the people of NYC and DC were like 95% against but we can't vote on things that effect them. must be nice, getting the honey but not the sting vis a vis the central govt

[erowe1]

Are you sure that quote is not apocryphal? Do you have a source?

From googling, it seems to get repeated a lot, but I can't find any source that looks trustworthy. My money's on apocryphal.

[tremendoustie]

I agree, but the point was if you don't pay...especially when we give them the presumption. And do things like record the deed with the county as the Trustee, etc.

Yep, it's true

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I don't care what the people in Arizona do. This legislation is going to be expensive. From comments in other threads I have serious reservations if the people of Arizona are going to pay the high price to enforce and litigate.

If Arizona goes broke like California and expects the rest of the states to bail her out I am going to take an interest. In the meantime I will be avoiding Arizona like the plague.

[BuddyRey]

What I see in this new law is the Hegelian Dialectic the press has been playing on us finally coming to fruition. By hyping the illegal immigration issue for so long, the government has the public so panicked that they'll accept *any* solution to the perceived problem, no matter how draconian its implementation might be.

The Feds let this happen by dangling numerous entitlement "carrots" in front of the heads of foreigners for years, on top of waging a drug war that has created a perpetual massacre on the border with thousands killed at the hands of vicious black marketeers. The immigration problem isn't the result of an overly laissez-faire naturalization policy; quite the opposite in fact, since to immigrate legally is to navigate a sea of prohibitive costs and bureaucratic red tape.

In every way, this crisis has been caused by some ill-advised government intervention. And now, they're going to try to remedy the problem they created with more of the very toxin that spawned the ailment.