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Thread: Constitutional Republic and being African American

  1. #1

    Question Constitutional Republic and being African American

    Hello, everyone. Is it getting warmer where you are? Did you have fun over St. Patty's day last week?

    I have something I was wondering if I could get your opinion and advice on. If anyone could be so kind to help, I would greatly appreciate it.

    I am an African American. My friend is an African American. The other night, in a conversation, my friend asked me to describe what I think a Constitutional Republic is. What do I mean by when I say the words, "Constitutional Republic." I then began giving him a description of what I mean by a Constitutional Republic. My friend then said,

    "But that is not what the founding fathers intended."

    He basically made the point that, the original intent of what a Constitutional Republic is, does not match my description. He pointed how none of it was originally intended for Black people.

    I then responded to that by telling him that I agree with him but it is beside the point because, I was not talking about a Constitutional Republic according the Founding fathers of 1786. I was giving my description.

    My friend basically brushed off my description as pointless and meaningless. That it doesn't matter. Just Moot.

    Well, what your thoughts and opinions about this? How might you respond to what my friend said?
    Last edited by Manji2012; 03-23-2010 at 01:12 PM.



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  3. #2
    If you are asking if the original documents included blacks, it actually did in word. The quotation "All men are created equal" is arguably the best-known phrase in any of America's political documents.[1][2] Thomas Jefferson first used the phrase in the Declaration of Independence . I would argue that Black men are men.

    However, as is often the case, greed (profits from cheap labor) influenced even the Founding Fathers. But few people are aware of this: As early as 1786 people had started to protest against slavery. One such group was the Pennsylvania Abolition Society. Some of its members included George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and John Brown. Brown was hanged for seizing the weapons arsenal at Harper’s Ferry, Virginia, in the hope of starting a slave uprising. He fought the Army and hoped slaves would join him to fight for their freedom. While many abolitionists fought to end slavery in the U.S., many also worked on the Underground Railroad to rescue a few slaves at a time and help them win their freedom.
    http://library.thinkquest.org/J01123...d_railroad.htm They rightfully said "slavery should not exist in a free society,and was unconstitutional."

    So, yes you were included. However just as the Constitution is being twisted to justify many crimes now, so was it then. Does that answer your question?
    Last edited by therepublic; 03-23-2010 at 01:32 PM.

  4. #3
    I would say that every era in history has its "dogs." In early America, it was the Native Americans and black American slaves. It eventually became the Polish, Irish, Russians, Italians, the Japanese during WWII, and it's currently Arabs. And that too shall pass.

    If Chinese people had been slaves, would they be making the same argument, or would they embrace the words "All men are created equal" and make sure that is upheld for all people?

    It's time to get over the victim mentality, it only holds people back, and it's a tool used by those in power to manipulate people. Empower yourself and others.

  5. #4
    I didn't read into Manji2012 statement, or the second post and victim claim...only an honest question.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Manji2012 View Post
    He basically made the point that, the original intent of what a Constitutional Republic is, does not match my description. He pointed how none of it was originally intended for Black people.
    Hopefully this will give you some encouragement. Black people are welcome into the Liberty Movement with open arms.

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    Last edited by FrankRep; 03-23-2010 at 06:57 PM.
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Manji2012 View Post
    Hello, everyone. Is it getting warmer where you are? Did you have fun over St. Patty's day last week?

    I have something I was wondering if I could get your opinion and advice on. If anyone could be so kind to help, I would greatly appreciate it.

    I am an African American. My friend is an African American. The other night, in a conversation, my friend asked me to describe what I think a Constitutional Republic is. What do I mean by when I say the words, "Constitutional Republic." I then began giving him a description of what I mean by a Constitutional Republic. My friend then said,

    "But that is not what the founding fathers intended."

    He basically made the point that, the original intent of what a Constitutional Republic is, does not match my description. He pointed how none of it was originally intended for Black people.

    I then responded to that by telling him that I agree with him but it is beside the point because, I was not talking about a Constitutional Republic according the Founding fathers of 1786. I was giving my description.

    My friend basically brushed off my description as pointless and meaningless. That it doesn't matter. Just Moot.

    Well, what your thoughts and opinions about this? How might you respond to what my friend said?
    Despite their flaws the founding fathers implemented a system of decentralization. That was the great compromise. The path to peace on the planet earth occurs when like minded people can share the same chunk of land. The path to conflict is people telling other people how to live. The country started out where people who believed in one religion could share land in one region implementing a state religion and people who believed in forced labor could share land in another region.

    The control concept of a Republic is not a dilemma of morals it is a dilemma of priorities. If the priority is to tell everyone else how to live there is no Republic because no one believes in it. Instead of a Democracy where one group of people can tell other people how to live using government force a Republic was formed based on the rule of law and a role of government that protects individual liberty.

    It is unfortunate that some people chose to believe in forced labor but it was a repugnant practice of human beings that dates back centuries. It was an acceptable practice at the time in history. Historians recognize slavery was going to end because reason and the market was ultimately going to prevail. People might be able to postpone reason but the market will always eventually prevail. It is unfortunate the Republic abandoned the priority of the rule of law protecting individual liberty in favor of telling other people how to live.

    There is so much diversity in belief presently in the several states conflict is inevitable because the trend of groups of people telling other people how to live under the threat of government force is not slowing down.

  8. #7
    Here is a good case in point.... black slave owners....

    http://americancivilwar.com/authors/...laveowners.htm

    If you compromise on the priorities of liberty and do not allow reason and markets to prevail on matters of morality does pointing a gun at someone and telling them they are wrong make them wrong?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Manji2012 View Post

    "But that is not what the founding fathers intended."
    Sure it is. All men are created equal, but Africans were not men. They were regarded as little black humanoid animals, whether sincerely or simply to justify their enslavement. That does not invalidate the "created equal" aspect of our go vernment, it only demonstrates how $#@!ed human beings can be when ignorance and conflicting interest come into play.

    He basically made the point that, the original intent of what a Constitutional Republic is, does not match my description. He pointed how none of it was originally intended for Black people.
    Only because by definition black africans were not human. Had they not been "other defined" in that way, they would also have been included at that time.

    I then responded to that by telling him that I agree with him but it is beside the point because, I was not talking about a Constitutional Republic according the Founding fathers of 1786. I was giving my description.
    Agreeing with him on that point in that manner was incorrect. He is, simply speaking, dead wrong on the principle.

    My friend basically brushed off my description as pointless and meaningless. That it doesn't matter. Just Moot.
    Pointless, meaningless, and moot based on what? Without that information, the truth or falsehood of his assertion is up for grabs.
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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Live_Free_Or_Die View Post
    Here is a good case in point.... black slave owners....

    http://americancivilwar.com/authors/...laveowners.htm

    If you compromise on the priorities of liberty and do not allow reason and markets to prevail on matters of morality does pointing a gun at someone and telling them they are wrong make them wrong?
    Excellent! Thanks for posting.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Sure it is. All men are created equal, but Africans were not men. They were regarded as little black humanoid animals, whether sincerely or simply to justify their enslavement. That does not invalidate the "created equal" aspect of our go vernment, it only demonstrates how $#@!ed human beings can be when ignorance and conflicting interest come into play.



    Only because by definition black africans were not human. Had they not been "other defined" in that way, they would also have been included at that time.



    Agreeing with him on that point in that manner was incorrect. He is, simply speaking, dead wrong on the principle.



    Pointless, meaningless, and moot based on what? Without that information, the truth or falsehood of his assertion is up for grabs.
    To put things in perspective, slavery has been around since the beginning of time whether you agree with it or not. Every race on earth has been enslaved at one time or another. Many Africans were sold into slavery by other Africans. Africans in Africa owned slaves. American Indians enslaved other Indians in this country before and after the Constitution was written. Slavery was part of the economic system in this country and much of the world at one point.

    You can trace slavery back to biblical days. One good example is in the Holy Bible
    Dan. 1:1-3, Nebuchadnezzar, Monarch of the Neo-Babylon, (605-562 B.C.) carried Jews captive to Babylon.

    I know of no one that condones slavery. It is time for slavery to end in this country. The point is, slavery in America is up to the black race. Do the Afro-Americans want to remain in self-imposed slavery by living with a victim mentality or do they want to drop the Afro hyphenation and become free Americans? That begs the question: Is my great grand daughter an Afro- American or is she an American? I like to think she is a free American.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Manji2012 View Post
    Hello, everyone. Is it getting warmer where you are? Did you have fun over St. Patty's day last week?

    I have something I was wondering if I could get your opinion and advice on. If anyone could be so kind to help, I would greatly appreciate it.

    I am an African American. My friend is an African American. The other night, in a conversation, my friend asked me to describe what I think a Constitutional Republic is. What do I mean by when I say the words, "Constitutional Republic." I then began giving him a description of what I mean by a Constitutional Republic. My friend then said,

    "But that is not what the founding fathers intended."

    He basically made the point that, the original intent of what a Constitutional Republic is, does not match my description. He pointed how none of it was originally intended for Black people.

    I then responded to that by telling him that I agree with him but it is beside the point because, I was not talking about a Constitutional Republic according the Founding fathers of 1786. I was giving my description.

    My friend basically brushed off my description as pointless and meaningless. That it doesn't matter. Just Moot.

    Well, what your thoughts and opinions about this? How might you respond to what my friend said?
    Go here and copy the full speech. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/spee...haveadream.htm

    Copy it and paste it into a word file. Do a find/replace for "Negro" and replace with "American" .

    If Martin Luther King spoke FOR the constitution and FOR freedom and liberty, then I do not see why the Constitution and freedom and liberty cannot speak for every American.

    send the edited speech with the below video
    ask them to watch this video and comment.

    Viddler.com - Herman Cain's SRLC Speech - Uploaded by rightscoop
    Last edited by newbitech; 04-12-2010 at 10:26 PM.

  14. #12
    I think you are both wrong.

    Blacks were totally intended to be included as U.S. citizens. Read Justice McLean's dissent in the Dred Scott case.

    It was the South's blind racism and the Court's Southern majority that refused to acknowledge that there were actually black U.S. citizens before 1857.
    Last edited by foofighter20x; 04-13-2010 at 12:15 AM.
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  15. #13
    The following article about sums it up:

    Thirty years after the death of Dr. Martin Luther King -- We still have a dream!

    Solutions to Black Predicaments: Changing the Mindset of People in Mental Slavery!

    The implications an the after-effects of slavery, did a lot of damage to both the minds and the economy of colored people even years after slavery. Racism still flourishes in society. Unfortunately, it is one of those predicaments Blacks have to face in their economic struggle. Our yelling reaction to racism has lost its fire. For many years we sang the song, did the dance, walked the march in the process of outcry about the painful effects of racism. Things have changed and times are different, but many Blacks today are suffering from the after-effects of the struggle for justice. They are mentally lost in a time warp!

    There was nothing wrong with the struggle, yet it left us mentally crippled due to our behavioral choices and actions. We developed the attitude, "Whites must do something for us, or else." We decided to fold our arms, sit down, and watch: "See what the White folks are going to do now!" This behavior indirectly amounted to a surrender for some, and a life of dependency for others not withstanding the success of many hard-working Blacks. But it did not resolve the serious problems of our inability to develop and orchestrate effective strategies to solve social problems at the community levels. We became so entangled with the struggle that even when lights came back on, we were unable to see. Because we vented energy in yelling our outrage against injustice, we ran out of energy to do anything else for ourselves. We want the government to do everything for us, including coming inside our homes to raise our children and chasing the drug dealers from our communities. Yet nothing the government does ever pleases us. Please my people!!

    The sight of some Blacks with poor work ethics on the job leads some employers to swear never to hire fools like that. Their color makes absolutely no difference; wrong is wrong! Some Blacks will fight on the job so loudly over trivial matters you may think they are possessed by demons. They say hypertension is killing Black people; it's probably self-imposed.

    Now, our children are in trouble in the streets! We are unable to understand that kids' behavior reflects adults' behavior. We are not satisfied with our political and economic gains, and we can't seem to find ways to mobilize effective forces for corrective changes in order to rebuild the Black families and communities in the inner cities. Who do you blame? Blame the Whites folks?

    Looking at our problems and what we have been doing, the solution is simple. We must change our slave mentality to one of thinking we are free and capable of doing things for ourselves, instead of carrying protest signs in front of White restaurants. Many times we sabotage our own efforts on the job due to inability to resolve our differences with other Blacks.

    Protest time is over, folks! Burn those protest signs! After studying the behavior of Blacks from poorly educated to well educated, from those in abject poverty to those on top of the world; rolling in money and fame, one thing is clear; many of us still act as if we internalize inferiority. While some, although out of the ghetto, retain their ghetto mentality and sometimes bring that to work.

    In business, Blacks run away from other Blacks at the drop of a hat even though we may belong to the same social or even professional organizations. We are always dying for other people's approval so badly that we refuse to embrace our own. This self-imposed inferiority complex has done more damage to our progress than any history of racism. As long as we entertain such belief, we will never find a way out of this shadow of darkness to save the Black families. The Whites ain't got nothing to do with it!

    Black family in chaos

    African family values have been reduced to the symbolism of dansiki and funny-looking African hats, which I wear sometimes myself, no offense. We operate differently from the African traditional values. Black men and women have been at war with each other from the time of slavery. Some say Black men are talking from their waist down, while Black women are fighting from the neck up and aggravating the heck out of the men. No wonder you can't attempt to network with some Sisters without them thinking you are interested in working under the skirt! Ironically, if you don't work under the skirt, some Black women don't even want to work or network with you. The attitude of such women is like, "If I don't get some sweetness out of this relationship, forget it, Brother!" Therefore, some Black men resort to playing tricks with the Sisters, carefully crafting a way through her heart and locking her inside for a while. Once the man gets all he wants, he feeds like a hungry wolf, finishes his business, and leaves. Then the Sister starts hollering! "You know Black men are no good!" Yah, sure! But who throws the panties at them?

    We cannot afford to reduce the relationship between a Black man and a Black woman to this level. It takes a village to raise a kid only when the village is able. Presently our village is disabled and our power base fragmented. We need both the spiritual strength and the economic discipline to rebuild the Black family. In the process, we can reclaim our children and other lost souls from the crime-ridden streets.

    Black organizations are fragmented and doing nothing!

    Most of the time in non-Black organizations, the purpose is well defined. Members do benefit from the operation of the organizations. Financially, members derive opportunities from the association, either for professional advancement, to improve social interactions, or to form effective networking systems.

    Black organizations are not only fragmented, they have been reduced to "party and dine," said Dr. Rose Mulligan, the author of ******, Please, in my interview with her. After paying a hefty yearly membership fee, it's party time, folks! So you see Sisters and Brothers dressing up to look good. When the music starts playing, you see our people getting down. Sisters will be shaking that behind like heaven is about to fall, and the Brothers join in like a Hurricane is about to hit the city! There is no doubt we know how to wiggle like snakes from Mama's womb because I've seen some Black kids break-dancing from birth! We are naturally talented dancers, but bad business and community organizers.

    Once we switch off the music, turn on the lights, and tell our people, "Let's do some business," immediately, everybody starts hitting the door like tomorrow. A few minutes later, the room is empty. And we still think White folks are the problem!

    Negotiation from strength

    We must learn to build both our political and economic strength. If we learn to negotiate with society from the position of strength, we will immediately stop thinking we are being targeted for victimization. As long as we continue to deal with society from the position of weakness because of our slave mentality, we may be doomed as a race. We have put in place many miniature programs for economic progress in response to problems in the inner cities. But such efforts are so fragmented across the country, we are not effective. We have never learned to network well together without planning to rip each other off. Like the old African proverb, "If spider webs unite, they can tie a lion." Our fragmented efforts are like small spider webs, easily broken once the wind blows, not even waiting for a storm. Therefore, when we fail at the community level to implement both effective economic and social changes, we start to blame Whites, who have little to do with our failures.

    Take the great success of the Million Man March of 1995 in Washington, for example. It was a very good idea and embraced by most Blacks and more Whites than was imagined. The message was for Black males to go back to the inner cities, join hands with the Sisters, and implement changes at the community level. At the implementation stage, it failed across the country because there were no effective forces in place to engineer and establish those changes. A year later, Black kids are still car-jacking and killing other Blacks in their neighborhoods. Many people have become frustrated and given up. So, the Million Man March is reduced to a historic symbol instead of a catalyst for change and horizon of hope.

    Our outcry of racism has emotionally crippled us as we continue to suffer from a self-imposed inferiority complex, complacency, and impotence of action. Everybody knows we must develop a strong economic base through networking and being dedicated to successful strategies in business. We must get rid of this slave mentality to free our minds from cognitive blindness, and mental paralysis. These are serious diseases causing lack of progress for Black people.

    Dr. Rosie Milligan is the author of ******, Please (published by Professional Business Consultant, Los Angeles, 208 pages, $14.95) and has written many books about the Back race. In my interview with her, I was impressed with her, although not with the title of her book. She told me that we need to teach African Americans how to empower themselves economically. She believes the Contract with America (which I call, Contract on Americans) is a blessing for Blacks. I argue with that one. She explained that, Affirmative Action Programs, lure Blacks into the false security of a "Share Croppers' Mindset." She indicated that people benefited from our slave labor, yet we are happy and settled just to have a place to sit next to Whites. Then we close down the stores and send our children to White schools. When we send our educated children to corporate America and they are not taken care of, we get angry. We need to take care of our own, she emphasized.

    Thirty years ago, Blacks were the only minority. Today there are more minorities around. "We're our own worst enemy," said Dr. Milligan very strongly. She said we talk about the White people as the blue-eyed devils and evils, yet we enroll Black children in White schools to be educated by those blue-eyed devils! "We need to stop saying White folks got their feet on our necks," she stressed. Dr. Milligan also explained how we need to generate economic empowerment, an idea which she learned from her father, a farmer who owned his land. "He who has his own and controls his own destiny lays out a path for him to control his own destiny," she said.

    During the interview, she said something I had never heard from any Black person before. She told me that Black churches are part of the major problems for Black people today. "Black churches never create jobs or do anything for Blacks' economic progress. They brainwash people that God will take care of them. And after all the yelling and jumping up and down, we still go home to nothing," she told me. At this point, I asked her whether she is against religion. She said she is against religion but not against spirituality. You'd better believe, that one was heavy for me!

    "Before, we used to sing ourselves to freedom; today we're singing ourselves to slavery and still singing in bondage," said Dr. Milligan, making me laugh a little. She said most of the Black organizations, instead of developing economic empowerment, they are doing meetings, eating, giving awards a practice which she referred to as, "Party and dine." (Dr. Rosie Miligan, 213-750-3592)

    When I interviewed Don Spears of New Orleans, the author of In Search of Goodpussy, (published by Don Spears Enterprises, 271 pages, $13.95) he shed some light on the subject matter from another perspective. Spears believes that most of what happened to Blacks didn't happen by accident. He quoted Thomas Jefferson: "Nothing in power happens by accident."

    He was referring to the Black predicament being part of the agenda of the system to maintain the present conditions of hopelessness and lack of economic progress. Spears maintains that other reasons for Blacks' predicaments have to do with lack of an agenda for economic progress and lack of effective national leadership. According to Spears, other people with well organized agendas have better economic and political success. He believes Blacks are not homogeneous and that differences tend to alienate us from each other. "We don't have a plan and we don't know where we're going," he said. Spears went further to explain that we Blacks don't have any idea about the opportunities out there because we are satisfied being validated physically and sexually instead of through our knowledge. He said we are our own worst enemy since we are not able to break from our predicaments. In addition, he explained that we seem not to matter to society, looking at the ways we have been treated.

    "Three strikes, you're out," he complained, has done more damage to Blacks and the family because society is trying to solve a very complex problem by the simple way of incarceration. This reminds me of what a Black woman told me while we were discussing crime, punishment, and fairness of sentencing. She said, "We Blacks don't get fairness when we do the right thing. How in the world do we want justice, by getting off through technicality, or justice when we do wrong?"

    In our long telephone interview, Spears suggested solutions and made me understand that the political system designed Black brainwashing and mindset as a form of control. He stressed that a lot of mind control lead Blacks to failure and hopelessness. In discussing solutions, he emphasized that Blacks must know who they are and where they are going and develop a sense of common purpose and direction. This led us to his book, In Search of Goodpussy, which I initially thought was about looking for good sex. He used the name as a generic term for anytime people are looking for something that makes them feel good, be it man or woman. Blacks must know their history and know where they come from. We must repair the relationship damage between the Black man and the Black woman; otherwise, nothing will work. Rebuilding the Black family is very important for our survival as a race, he stressed.(Don Spears, 800-880-2299, 504-944-1380)

    If we Blacks stop being ashamed of the way we look and get over the history of inferiority imposed on us, we will be able to stop self hatred. Like other groups who were subjected to history of persecutions and oppression, we can learn to love ourselves again. If we stop running away from each other, we can learn to work and solve problems together. Surely, we can learn to build a community together, at that time, we have created a village.

    by 'Yinka Vidal http://www.outcrybookreview.com/MindSlave.htm

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by newbitech View Post
    Go here and copy the full speech. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/spee...haveadream.htm

    Copy it and paste it into a word file. Do a find/replace for "Negro" and replace with "American" .

    If Martin Luther King spoke FOR the constitution and FOR freedom and liberty, then I do not see why the Constitution and freedom and liberty cannot speak for every American.

    send the edited speech with the below video
    ask them to watch this video and comment.

    Viddler.com - Herman Cain's SRLC Speech - Uploaded by rightscoop
    Thanks for posting the video. Herman Cain is dead on. For too long now black Americans have fallen into a trap set by those -- black and white -- overseers that profit by keeping them "down on the farm" so to speak. Their bodies are free but their minds are shackled.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by seeker4sho View Post
    Thanks for posting the video. Herman Cain is dead on. For too long now black Americans have fallen into a trap set by those -- black and white -- overseers that profit by keeping them "down on the farm" so to speak. Their bodies are free but their minds are shackled.

    Probably one of the best speeches I heard this past weekend.

    Yep, and we are all the same color on the inside as far as I am concerned physically and metaphorically , and aren't all of our brains gray?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by newbitech View Post
    Probably one of the best speeches I heard this past weekend.

    Yep, and we are all the same color on the inside as far as I am concerned physically and metaphorically , and aren't all of our brains gray?
    Yep.



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  20. #17

    Cool Fredrick Douglass: America's Greatest Black Libertarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Manji2012 View Post

    I am an African American. My friend is an African American. The other night, in a conversation, my friend asked me to describe what I think a Constitutional Republic is. What do I mean by when I say the words, "Constitutional Republic." I then began giving him a description of what I mean by a Constitutional Republic. My friend then said,

    "But that is not what the founding fathers intended."
    Your snotty friend has forgotten his Langston Hughes and Frederick Douglass, assuming he ever knew anything about them.

    A bad attitude is no substitute for knowing your own history.



    Freedoms Plow by Langston Hughes
    When a man starts out with nothing,
    When a man starts out with his hands
    Empty, but clean,
    When a man starts to build a world,
    He starts first with himself
    And the faith that is in his heart-
    The strength there,
    The will there to build.

    First in the heart is the dream-
    Then the mind starts seeking a way.
    His eyes look out on the world,
    On the great wooded world,
    On the rich soil of the world,
    On the rivers of the world.

    The eyes see there materials for building,
    See the difficulties, too, and the obstacles.
    The mind seeks a way to overcome these obstacles.
    The hand seeks tools to cut the wood,
    To till the soil, and harness the power of the waters.
    Then the hand seeks other hands to help,
    A community of hands to help-
    Thus the dream becomes not one man's dream alone,
    But a community dream.
    Not my dream alone, but our dream.
    Not my world alone,
    But your world and my world,
    Belonging to all the hands who build.

    A long time ago, but not too long ago,
    Ships came from across the sea
    Bringing the Pilgrims and prayer-makers,
    Adventurers and booty seekers,
    Free men and indentured servants,
    Slave men and slave masters, all new-
    To a new world, America!

    With billowing sails the galleons came
    Bringing men and dreams, women and dreams.
    In little bands together,
    Heart reaching out to heart,
    Hand reaching out to hand,
    They began to build our land.
    Some were free hands
    Seeking a greater freedom,
    Some were indentured hands
    Hoping to find their freedom,
    Some were slave hands
    Guarding in their hearts the seed of freedom,
    But the word was there always:
    Freedom.

    Down into the earth went the plow
    In the free hands and the slave hands,
    In indentured hands and adventurous hands,
    Turning the rich soil went the plow in many hands
    That planted and harvested the food that fed
    And the cotton that clothed America.
    Clang against the trees went the ax into many hands
    That hewed and shaped the rooftops of America.
    Splash into the rivers and the seas went the boat-hulls
    That moved and transported America.
    Crack went the whips that drove the horses
    Across the plains of America.
    Free hands and slave hands,
    Indentured hands, adventurous hands,
    White hands and black hands
    Held the plow handles,
    Ax handles, hammer handles,
    Launched the boats and whipped the horses
    That fed and housed and moved America.
    Thus together through labor,
    All these hands made America.

    Labor! Out of labor came villages
    And the towns that grew cities.
    Labor! Out of labor came the rowboats
    And the sailboats and the steamboats,
    Came the wagons, and the coaches,
    Covered wagons, stage coaches,
    Out of labor came the factories,
    Came the foundries, came the railroads.
    Came the marts and markets, shops and stores,
    Came the mighty products moulded, manufactured,
    Sold in shops, piled in warehouses,
    Shipped the wide world over:
    Out of labor-white hands and black hands-
    Came the dream, the strength, the will,
    And the way to build America.
    Now it is Me here, and You there.
    Now it's Manhattan, Chicago,
    Seattle, New Orleans,
    Boston and El Paso-
    Now it's the U.S.A.

    A long time ago, but not too long ago, a man said:
    ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL--
    ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR
    WITH CERTAIN UNALIENABLE RIGHTS--
    AMONG THESE LIFE, LIBERTY
    AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.
    His name was Jefferson. There were slaves then,
    But in their hearts the slaves believed him, too,
    And silently too for granted
    That what he said was also meant for them.

    It was a long time ago,
    But not so long ago at that, Lincoln said:
    NO MAN IS GOOD ENOUGH
    TO GOVERN ANOTHER MAN
    WITHOUT THAT OTHER'S CONSENT.
    There were slaves then, too,
    But in their hearts the slaves knew
    What he said must be meant for every human being-
    Else it had no meaning for anyone.
    Then a man said:
    BETTER TO DIE FREE
    THAN TO LIVE SLAVES

    He was a colored man who had been a slave
    But had run away to freedom.
    And the slaves knew
    What Frederick Douglass said was true.

    With John Brown at Harper's Ferry, Negroes died.
    John Brown was hung.
    Before the Civil War, days were dark,
    And nobody knew for sure
    When freedom would triumph
    "Or if it would," thought some.
    But others new it had to triumph.
    In those dark days of slavery,
    Guarding in their hearts the seed of freedom,
    The slaves made up a song:
    Keep Your Hand On The Plow! Hold On!
    That song meant just what it said: Hold On!
    Freedom will come!
    Keep Your Hand On The Plow! Hold On!
    Out of war it came, bloody and terrible!
    But it came!
    Some there were, as always,
    Who doubted that the war would end right,
    That the slaves would be free,
    Or that the union would stand,
    But now we know how it all came out.
    Out of the darkest days for people and a nation,
    We know now how it came out.
    There was light when the battle clouds rolled away.
    There was a great wooded land,
    And men united as a nation.

    America is a dream.
    The poet says it was promises.
    The people say it is promises-that will come true.
    The people do not always say things out loud,
    Nor write them down on paper.
    The people often hold
    Great thoughts in their deepest hearts
    And sometimes only blunderingly express them,
    Haltingly and stumblingly say them,
    And faultily put them into practice.
    The people do not always understand each other.
    But there is, somewhere there,
    Always the trying to understand,
    And the trying to say,
    "You are a man. Together we are building our land."

    America!
    Land created in common,
    Dream nourished in common,
    Keep your hand on the plow! Hold on!
    If the house is not yet finished,
    Don't be discouraged, builder!
    If the fight is not yet won,
    Don't be weary, soldier!
    The plan and the pattern is here,
    Woven from the beginning
    Into the warp and woof of America:
    ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.
    NO MAN IS GOOD ENOUGH
    TO GOVERN ANOTHER MAN
    WITHOUT HIS CONSENT.
    BETTER DIE FREE,
    THAN TO LIVE SLAVES.
    Who said those things? Americans!
    Who owns those words? America!
    Who is America? You, me!
    We are America!
    To the enemy who would conquer us from without,
    We say, NO!
    To the enemy who would divide
    And conquer us from within,
    We say, NO!
    FREEDOM!
    BROTHERHOOD!
    DEMOCRACY!
    To all the enemies of these great words:
    We say, NO!

    A long time ago,
    An enslaved people heading toward freedom
    Made up a song:
    Keep Your Hand On The Plow! Hold On!
    The plow plowed a new furrow
    Across the field of history.
    Into that furrow the freedom seed was dropped.
    From that seed a tree grew, is growing, will ever grow.
    That tree is for everybody,
    For all America, for all the world.
    May its branches spread and shelter grow
    Until all races and all peoples know its shade.
    KEEP YOUR HAND ON THE PLOW! HOLD ON!

    http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets...es/poems/16959

    (At the Annual Meeting of the Massachusetts Anti-Slavery Society in Boston, April, 1865, Douglass delivered the following speech on the subject: The Equality of all men before the law; Note that this was given within days of the close of the Civil War and the assassination of President Lincoln.)


    WHAT THE BLACK MAN WANTS

    I came here, as I come always to the meetings in New England, as a listener, and not as a speaker; and one of the reasons why I have not been more frequently to the meetings of this society, has been because of the disposition on the part of some of my friends to call me out upon the platform, even when they knew that there was some difference of opinion and of feeling between those who rightfully belong to this platform and myself; and for fear of being misconstrued, as desiring to interrupt or disturb the proceedings of these meetings, I have usually kept away, and have thus been deprived of that educating influence, which I am always free to confess is of the highest order, descending from this platform. I have felt, since I have lived out West [Douglass means west of Boston, in Rochester, NY], that in going there I parted from a great deal that was valuable; and I feel, every time I come to these meetings, that I have lost a great deal by making my home west of Boston, west of Massachusetts; for, if anywhere in the country there is to be found the highest sense of justice, or the truest demands for my race, I look for it in the East, I look for it here. The ablest discussions of the whole question of our rights occur here, and to be deprived of the privilege of listening to those discussions is a great deprivation.


    I do not know, from what has been said, that there is any difference of opinion as to the duty of abolitionists, at the present moment. How can we get up any difference at this point, or any point, where we are so united, so agreed? I went especially, however, with that word of Mr. Phillips, which is the criticism of Gen. Banks and Gen. Banks' policy. [Gen. Banks instituted a labor policy in Louisiana that was discriminatory of blacks, claiming that it was to help prepare them to better handle freedom. Wendell Phillips countered by saying, "If there is anything patent in the whole history of our thirty years' struggle, it is that the Negro no more needs to be prepared for liberty than the white man."] I hold that that policy is our chief danger at the present moment; that it practically enslaves the Negro, and makes the Proclamation [the Emancipation Proclamation] of 1863 a mockery and delusion. What is freedom? It is the right to choose one's own employment. Certainly it means that, if it means anything; and when any individual or combination of individuals undertakes to decide for any man when he shall work, where he shall work, at what he shall work, and for what he shall work, he or they practically reduce him to slavery. [Applause.] He is a slave. That I understand Gen. Banks to do--to determine for the so-called freedman, when, and where, and at what, and for how much he shall work, when he shall be punished, and by whom punished. It is absolute slavery. It defeats the beneficent intention of the Government, if it has beneficent intentions, in regards to the freedom of our people.


    I have had but one idea for the last three years to present to the American people, and the phraseology in which I clothe it is the old abolition phraseology. I am for the "immediate, unconditional, and universal" enfranchisement of the black man, in every State in the Union. [Loud applause.] Without this, his liberty is a mockery; without this, you might as well almost retain the old name of slavery for his condition; for in fact, if he is not the slave of the individual master, he is the slave of society, and holds his liberty as a privilege, not as a right. He is at the mercy of the mob, and has no means of protecting himself.


    It may be objected, however, that this pressing of the Negro's right to suffrage is premature. Let us have slavery abolished, it may be said, let us have labor organized, and then, in the natural course of events, the right of suffrage will be extended to the Negro. I do not agree with this. The constitution of the human mind is such, that if it once disregards the conviction forced upon it by a revelation of truth, it requires the exercise of a higher power to produce the same conviction afterwards. The American people are now in tears. The Shenandoah has run blood--the best blood of the North. All around Richmond, the blood of New England and of the North has been shed--of your sons, your brothers and your fathers. We all feel, in the existence of this Rebellion, that judgments terrible, wide-spread, far-reaching, overwhelming, are abroad in the land; and we feel, in view of these judgments, just now, a disposition to learn righteousness. This is the hour. Our streets are in mourning, tears are falling at every fireside, and under the chastisement of this Rebellion we have almost come up to the point of conceding this great, this all-important right of suffrage. I fear that if we fail to do it now, if abolitionists fail to press it now, we may not see, for centuries to come, the same disposition that exists at this moment. [Applause.] Hence, I say, now is the time to press this right.


    It may be asked, "Why do you want it? Some men have got along very well without it. Women have not this right." Shall we justify one wrong by another? This is the sufficient answer. Shall we at this moment justify the deprivation of the Negro of the right to vote, because some one else is deprived of that privilege? I hold that women, as well as men, have the right to vote [applause], and my heart and voice go with the movement to extend suffrage to woman; but that question rests upon another basis than which our right rests. We may be asked, I say, why we want it. I will tell you why we want it. We want it because it is our right, first of all. No class of men can, without insulting their own nature, be content with any deprivation of their rights. We want it again, as a means for educating our race. Men are so constituted that they derive their conviction of their own possibilities largely by the estimate formed of them by others. If nothing is expected of a people, that people will find it difficult to contradict that expectation. By depriving us of suffrage, you affirm our incapacity to form an intelligent judgment respecting public men and public measures; you declare before the world that we are unfit to exercise the elective franchise, and by this means lead us to undervalue ourselves, to put a low estimate upon ourselves, and to feel that we have no possibilities like other men. Again, I want the elective franchise, for one, as a colored man, because ours is a peculiar government, based upon a peculiar idea, and that idea is universal suffrage. If I were in a monarchial government, or an autocratic or aristocratic government, where the few bore rule and the many were subject, there would be no special stigma resting upon me, because I did not exercise the elective franchise. It would do me no great violence. Mingling with the mass I should partake of the strength of the mass; I should be supported by the mass, and I should have the same incentives to endeavor with the mass of my fellow-men; it would be no particular burden, no particular deprivation; but here where universal suffrage is the rule, where that is the fundamental idea of the Government, to rule us out is to make us an exception, to brand us with the stigma of inferiority, and to invite to our heads the missiles of those about us; therefore, I want the franchise for the black man.


    There are, however, other reasons, not derived from any consideration merely of our rights, but arising out of the conditions of the South, and of the country--considerations which have already been referred to by Mr. Phillips--considerations which must arrest the attention of statesmen. I believe that when the tall heads of this Rebellion shall have been swept down, as they will be swept down, when the Davises and Toombses and Stephenses, and others who are leading this Rebellion shall have been blotted out, there will be this rank undergrowth of treason, to which reference has been made, growing up there, and interfering with, and thwarting the quiet operation of the Federal Government in those states. You will se those traitors, handing down, from sire to son, the same malignant spirit which they have manifested and which they are now exhibiting, with malicious hearts, broad blades, and bloody hands in the field, against our sons and brothers. That spirit will still remain; and whoever sees the Federal Government extended over those Southern States will see that Government in a strange land, and not only in a strange land, but in an enemy's land. A post-master of the United States in the South will find himself surrounded by a hostile spirit; a collector in a Southern port will find himself surrounded by a hostile spirit; a United States marshal or United States judge will be surrounded there by a hostile element. That enmity will not die out in a year, will not die out in an age. The Federal Government will be looked upon in those States precisely as the Governments of Austria and France are looked upon in Italy at the present moment. They will endeavor to circumvent, they will endeavor to destroy, the peaceful operation of this Government. Now, where will you find the strength to counterbalance this spirit, if you do not find it in the Negroes of the South? They are your friends, and have always been your friends. They were your friends even when the Government did not regard them as such. They comprehended the genius of this war before you did. It is a significant fact, it is a marvellous fact, it seems almost to imply a direct interposition of Providence, that this war, which began in the interest of slavery on both sides, bids fair to end in the interest of liberty on both sides. [Applause.] It was begun, I say, in the interest of slavery on both sides. The South was fighting to take slavery out of the Union, and the North was fighting to keep it in the Union; the South fighting to get it beyond the limits of the United States Constitution, and the North fighting to retain it within those limits; the South fighting for new guarantees, and the North fighting for the old guarantees;--both despising the Negro, both insulting the Negro. Yet, the Negro, apparently endowed with wisdom from on high, saw more clearly the end from the beginning than we did. When Seward said the status of no man in the country would be changed by the war, the Negro did not believe him. [Applause.] When our generals sent their underlings in shoulder-straps to hunt the flying Negro back from our lines into the jaws of slavery, from which he had escaped, the Negroes thought that a mistake had been made, and that the intentions of the Government had not been rightly understood by our officers in shoulder-straps, and they continued to come into our lines, threading their way through bogs and fens, over briers and thorns, fording streams, swimming rivers, bringing us tidings as to the safe path to march, and pointing out the dangers that threatened us. They are our only friends in the South, and we should be true to them in this their trial hour, and see to it that they have the elective franchise.
    I know that we are inferior to you in some things--virtually inferior. We walk about you like dwarfs among giants. Our heads are scarcely seen above the great sea of humanity. The Germans are superior to us; the Irish are superior to us; the Yankees are superior to us [Laughter]; they can do what we cannot, that is, what we have not hitherto been allowed to do. But while I make this admission, I utterly deny, that we are originally, or naturally, or practically, or in any way, or in any important sense, inferior to anybody on this globe. [Loud applause.] This charge of inferiority is an old dodge. It has been made available for oppression on many occasions. It is only about six centuries since the blue-eyed and fair-haired Anglo-Saxons were considered inferior by the haughty Normans, who once trampled upon them. If you read the history of the Norman Conquest, you will find that this proud Anglo-Saxon was once looked upon as of coarser clay than his Norman master, and might be found in the highways and byways of Old England laboring with a brass collar on his neck, and the name of his master marked upon it. You were down then! [Laughter and applause.] You are up now. I am glad you are up, and I want you to be glad to help us up also. [Applause.]


    The story of our inferiority is an old dodge, as I have said; for wherever men oppress their fellows, wherever they enslave them, they will endeavor to find the needed apology for such enslavement and oppression in the character of the people oppressed and enslaved. When we wanted, a few years ago, a slice of Mexico, it was hinted that the Mexicans were an inferior race, that the old Castilian blood had become so weak that it would scarcely run down hill, and that Mexico needed the long, strong and beneficent arm of the Anglo-Saxon care extended over it. We said that it was necessary to its salvation, and a part of the "manifest destiny" of this Republic, to extend our arm over that dilapidated government. So, too, when Russia wanted to take possession of a part of the Ottoman Empire, the Turks were an "inferior race." So, too, when England wants to set the heel of her power more firmly in the quivering heart of old Ireland, the Celts are an "inferior race." So, too, the Negro, when he is to be robbed of any right which is justly his, is an "inferior man." It is said that we are ignorant; I admit it. But if we know enough to be hung, we know enough to vote. If the Negro knows enough to pay taxes to support the government, he knows enough to vote; taxation and representation should go together. If he knows enough to shoulder a musket and fight for the flag, fight for the government, he knows enough to vote. If he knows as much when he is sober as an Irishman knows when drunk, he knows enough to vote, on good American principles. [Laughter and applause.]


    But I was saying that you needed a counterpoise in the persons of the slaves to the enmity that would exist at the South after the Rebellion is put down. I hold that the American people are bound, not only in self-defence, to extend this right to the freedmen of the South, but they are bound by their love of country, and by all their regard for the future safety of those Southern States, to do this--to do it as a measure essential to the preservation of peace there. But I will not dwell upon this. I put it to the American sense of honor. The honor of a nation is an important thing. It is said in the Scriptures, "What doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" It may be said, also, What doth it profit a nation if it gain the whole world, but lose its honor? I hold that the American government has taken upon itself a solemn obligation of honor, to see that this war--let it be long or short, let it cost much or let it cost little--that this war shall not cease until every freedman at the South has the right to vote. [Applause.] It has bound itself to it. What have you asked the black men of the South, the black men of the whole country to do? Why, you have asked them to incure the enmity of their masters, in order to befriend you and to befriend this Government. You have asked us to call down, not only upon ourselves, but upon our children's children, the deadly hate of the entire Southern people. You have called upon us to turn our backs upon our masters, to abandon their cause and espouse yours; to turn against the South and in favor of the North; to shoot down the Confederacy and uphold the flag-- the American flag. You have called upon us to expose ourselves to all the subtle machinations of their malignity for all time. And now, what do you propose to do when you come to make peace? To reward your enemies, and trample in the dust your friends? Do you intend to sacrifice the very men who have come to the rescue of your banner in the South, and incurred the lasting displeasure of their masters thereby? Do you intend to sacrifice them and reward your enemies? Do you mean to give your enemies the right to vote, and take it away from your friends? Is that wise policy? Is that honorable? Could American honor withstand such a blow? I do not believe you will do it. I think you will see to it that we have the right to vote. There is something too mean in looking upon the Negro, when you are in trouble, as a citizen, and when you are free from trouble, as an alien. When this nation was in trouble, in its early struggles, it looked upon the Negro as a citizen. In 1776 he was a citizen. At the time of the formation of the Consitution the Negro had the right to vote in eleven States out of the old thirteen. In your trouble you have made us citizens. In 1812 Gen. Jackson addressed us as citizens--"fellow-citizens." He wanted us to fight. We were citizens then! And now, when you come to frame a conscription bill, the Negro is a citizen again. He has been a citizen just three times in the history of this government, and it has always been in time of trouble. In time of trouble we are citizens. Shall we be citizens in war, and aliens in peace? Would that be just?


    I ask my friends who are apologizing for not insisting upon this right, where can the black man look, in this country, for the assertion of his right, if he may not look to the Massachusetts Anti-Slavery Society? Where under the whole heavens can he look for sympathy, in asserting this right, if he may not look to this platform? Have you lifted us up to a certain height to see that we are men, and then are any disposed to leave us there, without seeing that we are put in possession of all our rights? We look naturally to this platform for the assertion of all our rights, and for this one especially. I understand the anti-slavery societies of this country to be based on two principles,--first, the freedom of the blacks of this country; and, second, the elevation of them. Let me not be misunderstood here. I am not asking for sympathy at the hands of abolitionists, sympathy at the hands of any. I think the American people are disposed often to be generous rather than just. I look over this country at the present time, and I see Educational Societies, Sanitary Commissions, Freedmen's Associations, and the like,--all very good: but in regard to the colored people there is always more that is benevolent, I perceive, than just, manifested towards us. What I ask for the Negro is not benevolence, not pity, not sympathy, but simply justice. [Applause.] The American people have always been anxious to know what they shall do with us. Gen. Banks was distressed with solicitude as to what he should do with the Negro. Everybody has asked the question, and they learned to ask it early of the abolitionists, "What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone! If you see him on his way to school, let him alone, don't disturb him! If you see him going to the dinner table at a hotel, let him go! If you see him going to the ballot- box, let him alone, don't disturb him! [Applause.] If you see him going into a work-shop, just let him alone,--your interference is doing him a positive injury. Gen. Banks' "preparation" is of a piece with this attempt to prop up the Negro. Let him fall if he cannot stand alone! If the Negro cannot live by the line of eternal justice, so beautifully pictured to you in the illustration used by Mr. Phillips, the fault will not be yours, it will be his who made the Negro, and established that line for his government. [Applause.] Let him live or die by that. If you will only untie his hands, and give him a chance, I think he will live. He will work as readily for himself as the white man. A great many delusions have been swept away by this war. One was, that the Negro would not work; he has proved his ability to work. Another was, that the Negro would not fight; that he possessed only the most sheepish attributes of humanity; was a perfect lamb, or an "Uncle Tom;" disposed to take off his coat whenever required, fold his hands, and be whipped by anybody who wanted to whip him. But the war has proved that there is a great deal of human nature in the Negro, and that "he will fight," as Mr. Quincy, our President, said, in earlier days than these, "when there is reasonable probability of his whipping anybody." [Laughter and applause.]

    (Foner, Volume Four, pages 157- 165)

    http://www.frederickdouglass.org/speeches/#wants
    Bachmann2012.com is For Sale, to benefit RPF and RP2012.

    Silver kills vampires: We store. We wait. We win.

    Economics, like chemistry, has nothing to do with politics. -Chodorov

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by seeker4sho View Post
    To put things in perspective, slavery has been around since the beginning of time whether you agree with it or not. Every race on earth has been enslaved at one time or another. Many Africans were sold into slavery by other Africans. Africans in Africa owned slaves.
    We may add that black Africans were about 100x worse in their treatment of slaves. Granted, slavery is slavery, but if one if to be subjected to it inescapably it may be preferable to be treated with some minimal regard. I'm not sure I believe this... just tossing it out there for kicks.

    American Indians enslaved other Indians in this country before and after the Constitution was written. Slavery was part of the economic system in this country and much of the world at one point.
    Absolutely. Yet America is the only place on the planet that still takes it in the neck for a past it shares with almost every other nation and people that ever existed.

    I know of no one that condones slavery. It is time for slavery to end in this country. The point is, slavery in America is up to the black race. Do the Afro-Americans want to remain in self-imposed slavery by living with a victim mentality or do they want to drop the Afro hyphenation and become free Americans? That begs the question: Is my great grand daughter an Afro- American or is she an American? I like to think she is a free American.
    Good point.

    Ii've spent a lifetime listening to various full-time victim groups whining on about eville(tm) racist white people. It's played. It's boring. We're no longer buying, so get over yourselves and come on in, the water is fine. With the exception of a rather small minority, we are a very inclusive nation. Cut the $#@!, get with the program, and stop whining about things that stopped being issues 40 years ago.

    Sheesh.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Manji2012 View Post
    Hello, everyone. Is it getting warmer where you are? Did you have fun over St. Patty's day last week?

    I have something I was wondering if I could get your opinion and advice on. If anyone could be so kind to help, I would greatly appreciate it.

    I am an African American. My friend is an African American. The other night, in a conversation, my friend asked me to describe what I think a Constitutional Republic is. What do I mean by when I say the words, "Constitutional Republic." I then began giving him a description of what I mean by a Constitutional Republic. My friend then said,

    "But that is not what the founding fathers intended."

    He basically made the point that, the original intent of what a Constitutional Republic is, does not match my description. He pointed how none of it was originally intended for Black people.

    I then responded to that by telling him that I agree with him but it is beside the point because, I was not talking about a Constitutional Republic according the Founding fathers of 1786. I was giving my description.

    My friend basically brushed off my description as pointless and meaningless. That it doesn't matter. Just Moot.

    Well, what your thoughts and opinions about this? How might you respond to what my friend said?
    Did you know we actually had black Founding Fathers, and that many of our Founding Fathers were abolitionists who helped in the underground railroad? Here is the information...please pass it on so the truth is preserved for future generations. It is not being taught in schools, and has been erased from the text books. If it is to be known, it us up to us all to let it be known.
    http://www.america.gov/st/peopleplac...0.7340313.html

    http://www.watchglennbeck.com/video/...-Samuel-Adams/

    http://www.pbs.org/benfranklin/l3_ci...litionist.html

    These things are no longer taught in our schools. Why do you suppose?
    Last edited by therepublic; 05-03-2010 at 09:18 AM.



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