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Thread: Against Democracy

  1. #1

    Against Democracy

    h ttp://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/02/10/say_no_to_democracy_100246.html

    Actually, "democracy" is not only messy but also immoral and unworkable. The Founding Fathers saw that coming, as well. So we don't live under a system of simple majority rule for a reason, as most readers already know.

    The minority political party, luckily, has the ability to obstruct, nag and filibuster the majority's agenda. Otherwise, those in absolute power would run wild -- or, in other words, you all would be living that Super Bowl Audi commercial by now.

    And if democracy is the mob -- the "worship of jackals by jackasses," as H.L. Mencken once cantankerously put it -- whom does it comprise in our scenario? Depends on how you look at it, I suppose.

    Though many Democrats advocate for direct democracy -- whether it be fighting states' rights or supporting the removal of the Electoral College -- it is a curiously selective endeavor.

    Take the Tea Partiers, who also have attached themselves to "democracy" rhetoric. What, one wonders, will Democrats have to say about the filibuster when Sarah Palin is jamming through her first-year agenda as president?

    We must be more judicious. We must have more debate before moving forward. The Founding Fathers never envisioned radical policy being jammed through by the majority. Oh, my God, it's actually happening.


    It reminds me of some of our opponents in this primary, supporting a no-name candidate. This candidate purports to support federalism and constitutional separation of powers, the constitutional divisions between state and federal governments, and yet in practice, he advocates a complete nationalization of everything he personally has an interest in, instead of realizing that compromising the constitutional framework to accomplish his aim (a good aim) of stopping abortions, will only in the end make the national allowance and support for abortion more likely.

    In theory he likes the 10th Amendment, but in practice, he wants federal control... sounds like any other politican to me.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.



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  3. #2

    In theory he likes the 10th Amendment, but in practice, he wants federal control... sounds like any other politican to me.
    Rand Nails it.
    “We have it in our power to begin the world over again.” - Thomas Paine

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethek View Post
    Rand Nails it.
    No, I don't think he nails it. He has an apathetic position on the 17th amendment, probably because he knows that the populist movement driving his campaign would lose steam if we did away with direct election of Senators. Unfortunately, Rand's approach goes against the intent of the Founders.

    When a candidate like Rand Paul (who has a lot of good ideas) has to hide his true positions in order to get elected, you know that something ain't right.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    No, I don't think he nails it. He has an apathetic position on the 17th amendment, probably because he knows that the populist movement driving his campaign would lose steam if we did away with direct election of Senators. Unfortunately, Rand's approach goes against the intent of the Founders.

    When a candidate like Rand Paul (who has a lot of good ideas) has to hide his true positions in order to get elected, you know that something ain't right.
    or maybe he is doing something right.
    how many libertarians have been elected to the congress?
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    No, I don't think he nails it. He has an apathetic position on the 17th amendment, probably because he knows that the populist movement driving his campaign would lose steam if we did away with direct election of Senators. Unfortunately, Rand's approach goes against the intent of the Founders.

    When a candidate like Rand Paul (who has a lot of good ideas) has to hide his true positions in order to get elected, you know that something ain't right.
    Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good.

    To most people the 17th Amendment isn't even on the radar...

    Rand is focusing on the things that matter to most people. Economic matters, social matters, defense matters.

    It's wonderful that there are candidates who believe that the 17th Amendment was a bad idea and ought to be repealed... but Rand would need $20,000,000 to run a campaign on that issue and have a tiny bit of a prayer of winning.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  7. #6
    The intent of the founders was for much smaller house district sizes with a working constitution that did not contend with corporate personhood and pandering by congress with unconstitutional allotment of funds.

    You deal with the rules of the system you are in until you are in a position to change them.
    “We have it in our power to begin the world over again.” - Thomas Paine

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    or maybe he is doing something right.
    how many libertarians have been elected to the congress?
    Deceiving the public is never right.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    Deceiving the public is never right.
    funny, because our country is led by those who decieve- and what matters most is how they vote once they are in office.
    I'd rather have someone lie about being big government but vote libertarian policies in office than vote for someone who lies about supporting small government then votes for big government once elected.
    the point of the election is to get elected.
    if the end result becomes we have a libertarian majority- i don't care how we get there.

    maybe you should start a thread declaring Rand a traitor, we haven't had one in a couple days. we are overdue for some more bull$#@! on here.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    Deceiving the public is never right.
    You're right! Deceit is not the way to go!

    Rand is just running on what he believes, and that is why he is in the lead.

    I am suggesting that instead of focusing on things that most people don't really care either way about, Rand ought to continue to focus on things that matter, like his dedication to the Constitution, to the free market system, to free-market health care, to protecting innocent live, to state sovereignty under the tenth amendment, and to limiting the growth of the federal deficit and government.

    There's no need to deceive anyone, Rand just needs to continue speaking the truth, and we need to run flankers for him preventing people from smearing him with outright lies.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    funny, because our country is led by those who decieve- .
    He's obviously trying to bait you friend.

    Rand only needs to speak the truth, defend freedom, the constitution, and life, and he'll be fine. Some folks want to smear him and lie, because they can't win by only promoting their own candidate. Those people are as reprehensible as the people who ran this add.

    YouTube - daisy girl
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    if the end result becomes we have a libertarian majority- i don't care how we get there.
    This is the kind of attitude I find most disturbing.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    This is the kind of attitude I find most disturbing.
    Those of us who have long labored against socialism, for candidates who support our constitution, federalism, state sovereignty under the 10th Amendment, for free-market health care, and against bigger and more intrusive government know that in order to create an electoral majority, public emphasis must be placed on those areas where the public agrees with the candidate.

    This is not to EVER endorse or support lying. Lying here is unnecessary. Rand is the only consistent pro-limited government, pro-constitution, pro-free-market and pro individual liberty candidate running--so all he needs to do is stick to his message, fend off lies and smears from those without the intellectual capacity for rational thought and the personal character needed to abstain from personal character asassination, and he will win.

    Thanks for trolling though!
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    This is the kind of attitude I find most disturbing.
    the same attitude as give me liberty or give me death.
    that disturbs a lot of people too.
    how many elections have you ran personally?
    do you know what they do to honest libertarian candidates?
    They take their honest words and twist them in an effort to decieve the public. it works everytime. its call FUD.
    The only way to combat FUD is to alter your message in such a way that FUD becomes hard to do.
    In order to avoid your opponents deception, you must change how your present your ideas.

    are you for the war on drugs?
    - i'm against the war on drugs.

    FUD- you want to give drugs to kids

    are you pro-life?
    - i believe the states should handle the abortion issue

    FUD- you are pro-abortion

    i find it amusing that you "think" you have the answers, when your perspective does not include the reality on the ground.
    how is that view from your white ivory tower?
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    This is the kind of attitude I find most disturbing.
    Perhaps you will be able to comprehend it if I phrase it this way--this is the attack:

    Conservatives oppose federal government control over education:

    Conservatives oppose education.


    Do you see the logical fallacy here?

    Conservatives oppose federal allowance of abortion:

    Conservatives want the states to abort babies


    The same fallacy...

    Got it?
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethek View Post
    The intent of the founders was for much smaller house district sizes with a working constitution that did not contend with corporate personhood and pandering by congress with unconstitutional allotment of funds.

    You deal with the rules of the system you are in until you are in a position to change them.
    What if the rules are immoral? Would you have abided by the rule of law in Nazi Germany?
    Unilaterally writing on a piece of a paper does not make something moral.

    Here's proof that Ron Paul wants no government more than the Constitution:

    "What do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than a return to the Constitution? Just like ..."

    Ron Paul: "Great. Fine. And I think that's really what my goal is."

    YouTube - Ron Paul Discusses Civil Disobedience, Self-Government & More with Motorhome Diaries

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    or maybe he is doing something right.
    how many libertarians have been elected to the congress?
    getting elected = right?
    Unilaterally writing on a piece of a paper does not make something moral.

    Here's proof that Ron Paul wants no government more than the Constitution:

    "What do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than a return to the Constitution? Just like ..."

    Ron Paul: "Great. Fine. And I think that's really what my goal is."

    YouTube - Ron Paul Discusses Civil Disobedience, Self-Government & More with Motorhome Diaries



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Met Income View Post
    What if the rules are immoral? Would you have abided by the rule of law in Nazi Germany?
    No, because only just laws need be obeyed. Government is created to protect rights, and certain levels of government are given power to protect certain rights...

    In our federal system of government, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land...

    That being the case, when the federal Congress passes an unconstitutional law, and the Supreme Court and the President allow it be enforced, unconstitutionally, then the States, through their officers, having sworn themselves to also defend and uphold the U.S. Constitution, have the obligation to nullify and interpose between the unconstitutional law and the people whose rights it will harm. Our federal system has a shield of protection against the tyranizing of any national government run amok.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Met Income View Post
    getting elected = right?
    One ought not to compromise their principles in order to win election, but there is no need to deliberately antagonize by presenting one's positions in the most easily obscured and vulnerable manner.

    Rand just needs to campaign on what he is, and what he stands for, and he will win. His opponents cannot attack his beliefs, because they are consistent, logical, and common-sensical, so they move on to obscurement and division, something this troll has accomplished here with regards to you Met.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Met Income View Post
    getting elected = right?
    nope. but it doesn't matter what you think if you can't get elected to change the policies.
    are all your thoughts that simple?
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    nope. but it doesn't matter what you think if you can't get elected to change the policies.
    are all your thoughts that simple?
    Rand will easily be the most strict constructionist in the Senate, and he will add iron to Jim DeMint and other Senators who might otherwise not take stands on constitutional grounds.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  24. #21
    I agree with ALMOST everything that Rand has said. I disagree with his position on the 17th amendment.

    I don't want to belabor the point. I'm saying that in order to truly have a republic, the people have to know who they are voting for. I believe Rand has been somewhat deceptive on certain points. I do not believe that the ends justify the means.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    I agree with ALMOST everything that Rand has said. I disagree with his position on the 17th amendment.

    I don't want to belabor the point. I'm saying that in order to truly have a republic, the people have to know who they are voting for. I believe Rand has been somewhat deceptive on certain points. I do not believe that the ends justify the means.
    What position do you disagree with?

    You want to keep the 17th Amendment as it is?
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    No, because only just laws need be obeyed. Government is created to protect rights, and certain levels of government are given power to protect certain rights...

    In our federal system of government, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land...

    That being the case, when the federal Congress passes an unconstitutional law, and the Supreme Court and the President allow it be enforced, unconstitutionally, then the States, through their officers, having sworn themselves to also defend and uphold the U.S. Constitution, have the obligation to nullify and interpose between the unconstitutional law and the people whose rights it will harm. Our federal system has a shield of protection against the tyranizing of any national government run amok.
    This would be ideal. Right now we have an absence of a working constitution.
    Anyone who disputes the campaing Rand is running tell me what part of this video past 49min 40 second mark to the end that they disagree with.

    An Idea Whose Time Has Come - G. Edward Griffin - Freedom Force International
    “We have it in our power to begin the world over again.” - Thomas Paine

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethek View Post
    This would be ideal. Right now we have an absence of a working constitution.
    Anyone who disputes the campaing Rand is running tell me what part of this video past 49min 40 second mark to the end that they disagree with.

    An Idea Whose Time Has Come - G. Edward Griffin - Freedom Force International
    Great speech.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

    You want to keep the 17th Amendment as it is?
    No, I want to repeal it. Rand has said that he doesn't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    No, I want to repeal it. Rand has said that he doesn't have a strong opinion one way or the other.
    actually his argument was- if there was no 17th amendment, a grassroots candidate like me would never get elected to the senate because the state legislature will pick a party hack.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    No, I want to repeal it. Rand has said that he doesn't have a strong opinion one way or the other.
    Well, I agree with you that it should be repealed, but the practical reality is that repealing any of the "really bad" progressive amendments will be more difficult than getting rid of social security or some other current federal program.

    If we got rid of it, the focus would shift from federal races to state races, giving the grass-roots even more control. I think that would actually be a good thing, even if it had the immediate impact of producing more hacks in D.C.---something I find hard to imagine I might add!!!
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    Great speech.
    Most importantly Rand 'gets it' he understands 'the creed' Griffin talks about at the end in the spirit of the decleration of indpeendance, studying his fathers positions and stating his own.

    Others in the race and across the Tea Parties parrot issues but miss the underlying philosphy of liberty. I really could care less what Rands positions on any one issue are is as long as I see that he understands that one point.
    “We have it in our power to begin the world over again.” - Thomas Paine

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    nope. but it doesn't matter what you think if you can't get elected to change the policies.
    are all your thoughts that simple?
    What are my thoughts? I was asking for clarification of your point. The political process isn't the only way to bring about change, either.
    Unilaterally writing on a piece of a paper does not make something moral.

    Here's proof that Ron Paul wants no government more than the Constitution:

    "What do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than a return to the Constitution? Just like ..."

    Ron Paul: "Great. Fine. And I think that's really what my goal is."

    YouTube - Ron Paul Discusses Civil Disobedience, Self-Government & More with Motorhome Diaries

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by vrichins View Post
    No, I want to repeal it. Rand has said that he doesn't have a strong opinion one way or the other.
    I would be curious about your positon on the intent of the framers of the constitution on 'Article the First' http://www.thirty-thousand.org/#Q12
    “We have it in our power to begin the world over again.” - Thomas Paine

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