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Thread: U.S. State Department: Israel discriminates against Christians

  1. #1
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    Exclamation U.S. State Department: Israel discriminates against Christians

    How will this effect $30 Billion dollar US tax payers aid to Israel announced recently?

    Quote:

    06/11/2009

    U.S. State Department: Israel is not a tolerant society

    By Akiva Eldar


    Israel dismally fails the requirements of a tolerant pluralistic society, according to a new report from the U.S. State Department.

    Despite boasting religious freedom and protection of all holy sites, Israel falls short in tolerance toward minorities, equal treatment of ethnic groups, openness toward various streams within society, and respect for holy and other sites.

    The comprehensive report, written by the State Department's Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, says Israel discriminates against groups including Muslims, Jehova's Witnesses, Reform Jews, Christians, women and Bedouin.

    The report says that the 1967 law on the protection of holy places refers to all religious groups in the country, including in Jerusalem, but "the government implements regulations only for Jewish sites. Non-Jewish holy sites do not enjoy legal protection under it because the government does not recognize them as official holy sites."

    At the end of 2008, for example, all of the 137 officially recognized holy sites were Jewish. Moreover, Israel issued regulations for the identification, preservation and guarding of Jewish sites only. Many Christian and Muslim sites are said to be neglected, inaccessible or at risk of exploitation by real estate entrepreneurs and local authorities.

    The report makes it clear that practices that have become routine in Israel are considered unacceptable in enlightened countries and should be corrected.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126286.html



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    They used to ban immigration from jews that identified themselves as Christian jews....not sure if that ban is still in place or not.

    When a nation is founded on racism does anything like this really surprise anybody??
    "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."--Thomas Jefferson

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    That ban may still be in place although US has been putting lot of pressure for reforms post 9/11. Thier goal apparently for legalizing various discriminations has been to presrrve "racial purity".

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    I'm waiting for our glorious government to state the same about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc. but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by virgil47 View Post
    I'm waiting for our glorious government to state the same about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc. but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.
    You mean Saudi Arabia - where wearing a crucifix or owning a Christian Bible is against the law?

    Shut up - we're only allowed to bash Israel here.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    You mean Saudi Arabia - where wearing a crucifix or owning a Christian Bible is against the law?

    Shut up - we're only allowed to bash Israel here.
    Nah, any barbaric country that the US government gives aid to, shields in some way, or makes excuses for is a prime candidate for bashing. That said, the obvious reason we focus on bashing Israel here is because they have orders of magnitude more influence over our own government. It's pretty sickening when, no matter what another country's government does, our own government consistently puts that country's government ahead of our own country's people. A country with undue influence over our lives is naturally going to be bashed harder for their crimes than a country with significantly less influence over us. (Or maybe we all hate them for their freedom? )

    However, this made me think of something: We should probably focus on exposing Uzbekistan and bashing them to hell and back, too. They don't actually shape our foreign policy like the Israel lobby does, but it seems they sure as hell enable the worst of it.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 11-08-2009 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Nah, any barbaric country that the US government gives aid to, shields in some way, or makes excuses for is a prime candidate for bashing. That said, the obvious reason we focus on bashing Israel here is because they have orders of magnitude more influence over our own government. It's pretty sickening when, no matter what another country's government does, our own government consistently puts that country's government ahead of our own country's people. A country with undue influence over our lives is naturally going to be bashed harder for their crimes than a country with significantly less influence over us. (Or maybe we all hate them for their freedom? )
    I don't know. Compare these two threads.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ht=olive+trees

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=215142

    Considerably more anger over Jews burning Palestinian olive trees in Israel than over Muslims killing Christians in Pakistan.

    I've never been one to care much about Israel - but I don't like hypocrisy or double standards. I am well aware of Christian prosecution in Muslim lands - and I still get emails to that effect from my old Church - but that doesn't seem to bother as many people here.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    I don't know. Compare these two threads.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ht=olive+trees

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=215142

    Considerably more anger over Jews burning Palestinian olive trees in Israel than over Muslims killing Christians in Pakistan.

    I've never been one to care much about Israel - but I don't like hypocrisy or double standards. I am well aware of Christian prosecution in Muslim lands - and I still get emails to that effect from my old Church - but that doesn't seem to bother as many people here.
    I think the disconnect here is that you're thinking in terms of moral outrage over the events themselves, whereas most people on this forum are thinking in terms of outrage over our foreign policy, in light of such events. (The focus may shift over the course of a conversation to complaining about the specifics of an injustice, but foreign policy is at the heart of the reason people are initially drawn to the topic in the first place.) I agree that there appears to be a double standard if you're expecting "equal outrage for equal crimes, greater outrage for greater crimes," with an equal eye for all perpetrators. However, my argument is that outrage over any particular country is directly proportional to how much influence that country's lobby has over the US. Muslims killing Christians in Pakistan is obviously far worse than Jews burning Palestinian olive trees in Israel, but it matters less in the context of our foreign policy, because our government doesn't unconditionally cater to Pakistan the way it unconditionally caters to Israel.

    We don't NEED to publicly bash Pakistan the way we need to bash Israel, because bashing Pakistan will accomplish proportionally much less: We may give them aid, and that needs to stop, but they do not have a pervasive effect on our entire foreign policy, and the US population does not feel a sense of perverse loyalty to Pakistan the way so many feel a perverse loyalty to Israel. I could bash Pakistan or Saudi Arabia all day, but it would be largely a waste of time and resources when pretty much everyone in the country already agrees with me that we shouldn't be their benefactors or guardians. It would essentially be beating a dead horse. In contrast, constantly driving the point home about Israel, day in and day out, every single time they do ANYTHING out of line, is meant to gradually erode the extraordinary influence and mindshare this particular country has over us.

    Remember, this is a political forum, and despite a lot of our differences here, sovereignty (whether national or individual) is a priority, and that includes shedding undue influence from foreign governments. If we were simply having academic discussions about the worst human rights violations in the world, we'd be focusing on places like North Korea, etc...but in the context of foreign policy, North Korea is less our problem, because we're not serving them hand and foot, and practically nobody in America thinks we should. When it comes to Israel though, so many still insist they can do no wrong, and that the US must defend them and put them first, etc., that we all have a vested interest in exposing their crimes.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 11-08-2009 at 05:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

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    Quote Originally Posted by virgil47 View Post
    I'm waiting for our glorious government to state the same about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc. but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.
    Egypt is the only one on this lis that gets billions in yearly aid from us also, as a bribe for keeping peace treaty with Israel apparently. I doubt State would raise issue of gross human rights abuse in Egypt, dictatorship, torture chambers etc - probably because we would then have one less country to rendition anti-democracy suspects for enhanced torture.

    Given what is going on in US and in Iraq/Afghanistan lately, we probably have very little moral standing/political capital to lecture anyone in the world on freedom, racial equality and human rights who is not getting billions in our tax payers donations every year.

    And post 9/11, Israel is also a special case in US foreign policy and national security considerations because of Palestinian occupation issue, and one we have leverage with because of highest per capita aid it receives from US tax payers.

    SA is sacred, they got oil and US/world economy needs oil, so it could be considered economically selfish to not apply human rights laws on that friendly dicatorship that also happens to be one of the most repressive. Even when they led Oil emargo against US/West over Israel occupation of arab land in 1973, western nations were shy to criticize their human rights record despite having to stand in long lines at the pumps. But SA's oppression is against its own people primarily unlike in case of Israel and does not create the kind of anti-Americanism and terror threats for us as Israeli oppression does.
    Last edited by Liberty Star; 11-08-2009 at 05:31 PM.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    I think the disconnect here is that you're thinking in terms of moral outrage over the events themselves, whereas most people on this forum are thinking in terms of outrage over our foreign policy, in light of such events. (The focus may shift over the course of a conversation to complaining about the specifics of an injustice, but foreign policy is at the heart of the reason people are initially drawn to the topic in the first place.) I agree that there appears to be a double standard if you're expecting "equal outrage for equal crimes, greater outrage for greater crimes," with an equal eye for all perpetrators. However, my argument is that outrage over any particular country is directly proportional to how much influence that country's lobby has over the US. Muslims killing Christians in Pakistan is obviously far worse than Jews burning Palestinian olive trees in Israel, but it matters less in the context of our foreign policy, because our government doesn't unconditionally cater to Pakistan the way it unconditionally caters to Israel.
    So basically you are saying it is mock outrage? They don't really give a crap about the olive trees.

    Doesn't shock me but it is kind of BS. The one guy who dared make a comparison to Islam for the violence in Fort Hood was attacked and banned, but the dead aren't even buried yet and we have a thread blaming Israel and Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    So basically you are saying it is mock outrage? They don't really give a crap about the olive trees.
    You misunderstand me: The outrage over our foreign policy is real. The point is that it's not really about the olive trees. They merely serve as example number 359271 of why our foreign policy favoritism needs to change, and a minor one at that. Even for the Palestinians, I doubt the "big deal" has way less to do with the loss of their trees than it has to do with Israelis doing deliberately cruel things to humiliate them and crush their spirits. I think it's the symbolism that makes this kind of thing even "register on the radar" in the first place. In addition, it's not like you linked to a 50-page thread with lengthy tirades about the horrors of this particular incident, either.

    As sad as the above situation is, I'm personally unconcerned over it with respect to US politics, because it was done by an angry mob rather than their government...and angry foreign mobs don't have any undue influence over the US that I have a vested interest in diminishing. (Actually, the eminent domain bullshit that the Israeli government pulled against its own people there is a bigger sticking point for me...though that's just business as usual for practically EVERY government in the world today, so it doesn't really deserve special attention.) If the Israeli and Palestinian people can't play nice with each other, that's their own problem. What pisses me off is what the Israeli government is able to get away with without the US government even considering putting the US population ahead of them.

    In a nutshell: I can't speak for anyone else, but I get the feeling most people here view this the same way I do. The reason I can't stand Israel in particular is because everything bad they do is done under OUR protection and favor, and especially because they have more influence on the US government than US citizens do. The US government considers the Israeli government's interests a higher priority than the interests of US citizens. I mean, don't you agree that there's something totally messed up and backwards about that? This would be upsetting enough if Israel were as docile and lovable as Liechtenstein, but it's even worse considering the fact that Israel commits so many crimes. Because we give Israel our unconditional protection and favor, our country shares responsibility for all of this, which is not only shameful and guilt-inducing in itself, but it reflects poorly on us and exposes us to yet more international hatred. If it were simply about foreign aid - which we give to many others besides Israel - I'd be equally critical of every country receiving such aid, but the fact is, the aid is secondary to the way the Israeli lobby shapes our own foreign policy, the way the US government puts Israel first, and the way people in the US feel such a perverse and irrational (religiously-based) loyalty to Israel despite all this. It's maddening and sickening to me, and I want it to end, and that is why I will jump at any chance to expose Israel's actions and bash their reputation. My outrage is real, but it has more to do with MY government's complicity than it has to do with what someone else is doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    Doesn't shock me but it is kind of BS. The one guy who dared make a comparison to Islam for the violence in Fort Hood was attacked and banned, but the dead aren't even buried yet and we have a thread blaming Israel and Jews.
    Link? (I'm not doubting; I believe you. I'm just too lazy to search.)
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 11-08-2009 at 06:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    You misunderstand me: The outrage over our foreign policy is real. The point is that it's not really about the olive trees. They merely serve as example number 359271 of why our foreign policy favoritism needs to change, and a minor one at that. Even for the Palestinians, I doubt the "big deal" has way less to do with the loss of their trees than it has to do with Israelis doing deliberately cruel things to humiliate them and crush their spirits. I think it's the symbolism that makes this kind of thing even "register on the radar" in the first place. In addition, it's not like you linked to a 50-page thread with lengthy tirades about the horrors of this particular incident, either.

    As sad as the above situation is, I'm personally unconcerned over it with respect to US politics, because it was done by an angry mob rather than their government...and angry foreign mobs don't have any undue influence over the US that I have a vested interest in diminishing. (Actually, the eminent domain bullshit that the Israeli government pulled against its own people there is a bigger sticking point for me...though that's just business as usual for practically EVERY government in the world today, so it doesn't really deserve special attention.) If the Israeli and Palestinian people can't play nice with each other, that's their own problem. What pisses me off is what the Israeli government is able to get away with without the US government even considering putting the US population ahead of them.

    In a nutshell: I can't speak for anyone else, but I get the feeling most people here view this the same way I do. The reason I can't stand Israel in particular is because everything bad they do is done under OUR protection and favor, and especially because they have more influence on the US government than US citizens do. The US government considers the Israeli government's interests a higher priority than the interests of US citizens. I mean, don't you agree that there's something totally messed up and backwards about that? This would be upsetting enough if Israel were as docile and lovable as Liechtenstein, but it's even worse considering the fact that Israel commits so many crimes. Because we give Israel our unconditional protection and favor, our country shares responsibility for all of this, which is not only shameful and guilt-inducing in itself, but it reflects poorly on us and exposes us to yet more international hatred. If it were simply about foreign aid - which we give to many others besides Israel - I'd be equally critical of every country receiving such aid, but the fact is, the aid is secondary to the way the Israeli lobby shapes our own foreign policy, the way the US government puts Israel first, and the way people in the US feel such a perverse and irrational (religiously-based) loyalty to Israel despite all this. It's maddening and sickening to me, and I want it to end, and that is why I will jump at any chance to expose Israel's actions and bash their reputation. My outrage is real, but it has more to do with MY government's complicity than it has to do with what someone else is doing.


    Link? (I'm not doubting; I believe you. I'm just too lazy to search.)
    So you really don't give rat's patootie about Israel. You are unhappy with U.S. foreign policy and Israel is your whipping boy.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by virgil47 View Post
    So you really don't give rat's patootie about Israel.
    Well, yes and no. By itself, I "don't give a rat's patootie" about Israel in the same way as I don't really care about other foreign countries: I care in the abstract sense, because I care about people, and I wish all the best for their people, but they're not really my direct concern until the US gets involved (dragging us citizens along) or they solicit the US government to get involved (dragging us citizens along). That's what's going on here.

    Quote Originally Posted by virgil47 View Post
    You are unhappy with U.S. foreign policy and Israel is your whipping boy.
    If Israel were my whipping boy, that would somehow imply I was at the better end of the arrangement.

    I am unhappy with US foreign policy, and I'm unhappy with those who actively and deliberately work to subvert it for their own ends and at the expense of the American people. In the same vein, I hate lobbyists and corporate welfare/bailout beggars just as much as I hate the politicians who listen to them and rob us for them. To draw an analogy between foreign policy and the bailouts, Israel is the Goldman Sachs, AIG, and General Motors [put together] of foreign policy largesse...except they also commit a lot of other crimes that make their privileged status even more outrageous. Does that help make my position on Israel more sympathetic to you?

    The whole situation reminds me of a quote from the movie The Untouchables:
    Quote Originally Posted by Elliot Ness, from The Untouchables
    In Roman times, when a fellow tried to bribe a public official, they would cut off his nose, sew him in a bag with a wild animal, and throw that bag in the river.
    To put things very simply: I hate the state and its aggression, and I equally hate those who USE the state as a weapon against others. If the state is a hitman of sorts, its puppet-masters are the contractors, and I don't have very positive feelings about either.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 11-08-2009 at 11:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  15. #14

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    Well, there are other countries that receive aid from the United States and I don't see half as much finger pointing at them.

    Personally, I don't like any country getting aid from the U.S., and believe giving aid to all of those countries is what allows many of them to turn against the U.S. with the weapons the U.S. gave them money to buy.

    So far, Israel has not turned against the U.S. with those weapons, expect for that one time people keep posting about. I would suspect it was an accident. Those who believe otherwise are conspiracy theorists and have no proof it was anything other than an accident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Well, there are other countries that receive aid from the United States and I don't see half as much finger pointing at them.
    That's because it's mostly not even about the financial aid. Granted, that's quite upsetting as well, but it's secondary to:
    • the immense influence the Israeli lobby has on our overall foreign policy
    • our unconditional protection of their country from all harm
    • the fact that so many Americans actually think the above two situations are actually somehow okay

    Can you name any other foreign country in the world, other than Israel, that our foreign policy is constructed from the ground up to accomodate, and that ordinary Americans feel a religious sense of loyalty towards? The aid is upsetting, but the focus on Israel is obviously not about the aid by itself. It's the fact that there's one particular country, out of all of the countries in the world, that the United States government prioritizes above the American people themselves. We cannot even have a freaking President elected unless he essentially pledges his undying loyalty to a foreign country first...and that country isn't Pakistan or Saudi Arabia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Personally, I don't like any country getting aid from the U.S., and believe giving aid to all of those countries is what allows many of them to turn against the U.S. with the weapons the U.S. gave them money to buy.

    So far, Israel has not turned against the U.S. with those weapons, expect for that one time people keep posting about. I would suspect it was an accident. Those who believe otherwise are conspiracy theorists and have no proof it was anything other than an accident.
    I agree that the "Remember the USS Liberty" people focus too much on that one incident, which may have been accidental, especially given the Israeli government's incentive to stay on our government's good side. (Of course, they may have very well known they had leeway, given the prevailing "politically correct" opinion that they can do no wrong.)
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 11-08-2009 at 10:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    You misunderstand me: The outrage over our foreign policy is real. The point is that it's not really about the olive trees. They merely serve as example number 359271 of why our foreign policy favoritism needs to change, and a minor one at that. Even for the Palestinians, I doubt the "big deal" has way less to do with the loss of their trees than it has to do with Israelis doing deliberately cruel things to humiliate them and crush their spirits. I think it's the symbolism that makes this kind of thing even "register on the radar" in the first place. In addition, it's not like you linked to a 50-page thread with lengthy tirades about the horrors of this particular incident, either.
    I want us to stop meddling overseas and I would be very happy if we cut Israel and all these other nations off. What I don't like is this "US/Israel is always evil", "Iran is a great beacon of hope" and "everything is a false flag".

    Link? (I'm not doubting; I believe you. I'm just too lazy to search.)
    Start around page 2:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=218147

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    I want us to stop meddling overseas and I would be very happy if we cut Israel and all these other nations off. What I don't like is this "US/Israel is always evil", "Iran is a great beacon of hope" and "everything is a false flag".



    Start around page 2:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=218147
    Iran is not a beacon of hope. It actually just squeaks past the USA in the recent list of the world's most unliked and distrusted nations in the world.

    Pretty sad I had to even say that.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  19. #18
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    I want us to stop meddling overseas and I would be very happy if we cut Israel and all these other nations off. What I don't like is this "US/Israel is always evil", "Iran is a great beacon of hope" and "everything is a false flag".
    Hahahaha, "Iran is a beacon of hope"...man, we must have let max go before putting on the ban-pressure for way too long, if he actually posted enough to make that seem like a common opinion. Sure, Iran is a lot less crazy/threatening than the US government makes them out to be, and they're only ever likely to become a threat to us if we back them into a corner like a scared animal...but at their core, they're just another country with "normal" people and a run-of-the-mill oppressive government (not among the worst though) that would pretty much leave us alone if we gave them the choice.

    I agree that a few people jump too quickly to conclusions and assume "everything is a false flag," but at the same time, I think it's equally naive to jump to the opposite conclusion and wave away suspicious signs, too. Sometimes I wonder if this wouldn't make for interesting psychological research though: On one hand, you have people who won't believe ANYTHING is a conspiracy, who will believe almost anything mainstream and mock conspiracy theorists, etc...and on the other hand, you have people who won't believe anything ISN'T a conspiracy, and they'll unquestioningly believe almost anything as long as it's not mainstream. It's...bewildering.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    K, I'll check it out.

    ...and I'm back. I'm not quite sure why you said this a few posts back:
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrell
    The one guy who dared make a comparison to Islam for the violence in Fort Hood was attacked and banned, but the dead aren't even buried yet and we have a thread blaming Israel and Jews.
    From what I can tell, only one person (sofia) seems to be trying to link Israel or Jews to the actual attack...at the very least, don't you think it's an exaggeration to say the thread is blaming Israel and the Jews for the attack? The others just seem to be speculating about the bizarre behavior detailed in the OP, and I agree with them that it's weird enough to invite suspicion. When people act in a highly conspicuous way that causes predictable public backlash against an entire group of people, it's always worthwhile to question their motives. Remember the "backwards 'B'" girl who was supposedly mugged by an outraged black man for not supporting Obama? Her motives were more deranged and attention-focused than calculating, but the same concept applies. "Qui bono" is not the be all, end all of investigation, but it's certainly a good starting point that seems to be utilized far more on these forums than elsewhere. Perhaps we're too paranoid here, but I think far too many people take things at face value than is wise.

    If there was one thing I agreed with InterestedParticipant on, it's that a lot goes on that's staged for a predictable and exploitable reaction. I've seen a lot of very calculating, manipulative, and deceptive behavior in my own life on a small scale, but it's camouflaged well enough that most people don't ever seem to recognize who's manipulating them and how they're doing it. Even in the face of incontrovertible proof (written documentation, etc.) that they're manipulative pathological liars, people who prey on other people are often so convincing and good at crazy-making that they can still make their victims doubt themselves, feel uncertain, and wonder if they could just be wrong thinking so badly of the person manipulating or abusing them. There's a lot of "refuge in audacity" going on here, and normal people believe they must have something wrong, because they naively and implicitly assume on some level that everyone else fundamentally has a conscience like them.

    Seeing that kind of stuff go on has greatly influenced my worldview, and I see little reason to believe that the same kind of manipulative showmanship doesn't shape a great deal of world events (especially since narcissists and psychopaths are attracted to power and have pretty much ruled over the rest of us since the beginning of civilization). Besides, when it comes to intelligence agencies like the CIA and Mossad, games of deception and "false flag ops," large and small, aren't exactly side interests; they're the primary focus of such organizations! Wouldn't it be silly to think such agencies with such gigantic budgets (and untold illegal revenue streams) aren't getting anything done?

    In this specific case, I personally believe you have a very valid point in the thread you linked to: If those guys are actually on the Israeli payroll, they probably wouldn't be making it so easy for us to draw such a connection. That said, the situation is still weird enough to warrant speculation.

    Anyway, who got banned for "daring" to make a comparison to Islam? After all, we still have JAGS~BEACH and ElyaKatz here, and Objectivist routinely got away with thread after thread created solely to bash Muslims...and when I say "bash Muslims," I actually mean Muslims: not a country or government like Israel, and not a political movement like Zionism, but Muslims as a religious group.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 11-09-2009 at 12:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  21. #20

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    Ron Paul / Mini-Me
    2012
    Because

    Mini-Me has pwned every ass in this thread.
    Pandora's box is not only open but its sides have been split with a razor and it now resides in a dumpster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieseler View Post
    Ron Paul / Mini-Me
    2012
    Because

    Mini-Me has pwned every ass in this thread.
    Haha, thanks, I think...unless you're poking fun at me for monopolizing the conversation with my rants.
    http://xkcd.com/386/
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  23. #22

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Haha, thanks, I think...unless you're poking fun at me for monopolizing the conversation with my rants.
    http://xkcd.com/386/
    Nah Boss, you won this hands down, I am truly humbled.



    That's awesome hehe.
    Last edited by Dieseler; 11-09-2009 at 12:42 AM.
    Pandora's box is not only open but its sides have been split with a razor and it now resides in a dumpster.

  25. #24
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    I was going to say the same thing.

    Mini-Me's coherent and logical temperance is a breath of fresh air. I wish Mini-Me were right about other people not simply hating Jews and Israel, and bashing them to kingdom come (lol), but that's pretty much why Mini-Me stands out.
    We accept both kinds of political theories here; No government and Anarchy. Ronpaulforums.com "Big Tent"

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post


    I agree that the "Remember the USS Liberty" people focus too much on that one incident, which may have been accidental, especially given the Israeli government's incentive to stay on our government's good side.
    I don't think you know much about the USS Liberty attack if you would even entertain for a moment that it was "accidental"....

    Israel and the U.S. actions and cover-up were no "accident"....the only "accident" is that they didn't sink the ship!!!

    How exactly can you explain attacking by air a US ship with its U.S. flag flying high in a breeze???
    "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."--Thomas Jefferson

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promontorium View Post
    I was going to say the same thing.

    Mini-Me's coherent and logical temperance is a breath of fresh air. I wish Mini-Me were right about other people not simply hating Jews and Israel, and bashing them to kingdom come (lol), but that's pretty much why Mini-Me stands out.
    Mini-me lays the issue and argument out very well and I concur with his posts completely.

    A lot of us are just plain tired of typing all that out over and over whenever some low post Israel-firster shows up on RPF just to stir the pot and dish out a dose of "anti-semite!!!11!!!1" accusations. I've been on this site since 2007. I'm not typing all that out anymore. In fact, I'm about to change my sig for the first time since I've been a member here so I will never have to type it all out again.
    Last edited by devil21; 11-09-2009 at 01:28 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    Internet shills exposed: (Yes, there are plenty on RPF)
    http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2012/10/...eyre-real.html

    Why most RPF members are against the US involvement with Israel explained by Mini-Me:
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=218093
    No anti-semitism, just logic.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks Fishing Boat Rentals

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promontorium View Post
    I was going to say the same thing.

    Mini-Me's coherent and logical temperance is a breath of fresh air. I wish Mini-Me were right about other people not simply hating Jews and Israel, and bashing them to kingdom come (lol), but that's pretty much why Mini-Me stands out.
    Thanks...

    You raise an interesting point though: Along with other posters like me, I may be projecting my views onto other people who very well may be anti-Israel for petty racist reasons. I hope that's not the case, but it's possible. Still, the actual racist posters make me wonder about the chicken and the egg problem: Do they hate Israel so much because they hate Jews, or did they grow to hate Jews because they hate Israel so much? Granted, neither one is actually defensible: Israeli citizens are only as responsible for what the Israeli government does as I am for what the US government does, and so Jewish people in general certainly can't be held responsible for Israel, considering they're not even all Israeli! Still, I wonder.

    Honestly, I get the feeling that among the people who actually hate the Jews, most of them probably did not grow up hating the Jews (i.e. prejudice without any basis whatsoever). Even though I despise being associated with them because they make people with legitimate concerns about Israel look bad, I get the feeling that the racists may have started out with some legitimate concerns too...but that they were too collectivist-minded and emotionally-driven to maintain a mental separation between the Israeli government and Jewish people as a race. I noticed this in some of tones's posts a long time ago, and I got the impression that she was probably neutral or even pro-Israeli at one point, but that she must have become more and more jaded over time until finally slipping up and making comments lumping "the Jews" together, as if they're a hive mind or something.

    Ironically, I think the Defamation League and their allies play a role here by conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism: Because they're constantly exposing people to this angle, we're all having the idea shoved down our throats that "Israel = The Jews," and the constant repetition may be gradually wearing on some people until they actually believe it themselves. Over time, some of the people who used to legitimately criticize Israel and the Zionists begin blaming "the Joos" for everything. You probably see similar transformations in real life: You might know someone who used to be reasonable, but then had a bad experience with a walking stereotype or two and now hates all Mexicans (for example). It's boorish and appalling, but I also think it's pretty depressing how so many people let their collectivist tendencies get out of control until they're reduced to the level of petty racism.

    I'd just really like to think they're in the minority here, for multiple reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  29. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fj45lvr View Post
    I don't think you know much about the USS Liberty attack if you would even entertain for a moment that it was "accidental"....

    Israel and the U.S. actions and cover-up were no "accident"....the only "accident" is that they didn't sink the ship!!!

    How exactly can you explain attacking by air a US ship with its U.S. flag flying high in a breeze???
    Sorry, I didn't mean to give you a coronary. From what I know of the USS Liberty attack - which you are correct is very little, since I'm not the best at committing details to memory - I agree that it seemed intentional. Still, I haven't studied it enough to know that for certain, and the controversy surrounding it even on these boards has been enough to make me entertain for a moment the idea that it was accidental. Really, you shouldn't read too much into my opinion on the USS Liberty.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  30. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Israeli citizens are only as responsible for what the Israeli government does as I am for what the US government does, and so Jewish people in general certainly can't be held responsible for Israel, considering they're not even all Israeli! Still, I wonder.
    This is true. You can speak out against various Israeli policies more vehemently within Israel as an Israeli than here in the U.S. And believe me there are many Israeli and Non-Israeli Jews that are not "on board" with what certain jews and the Israeli government has, is and will do to the Palestinian people and private property rights.
    "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."--Thomas Jefferson

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Well, there are other countries that receive aid from the United States and I don't see half as much finger pointing at them.

    Personally, I don't like any country getting aid from the U.S., and believe giving aid to all of those countries is what allows many of them to turn against the U.S. with the weapons the U.S. gave them money to buy.

    So far, Israel has not turned against the U.S. with those weapons, expect for that one time people keep posting about. I would suspect it was an accident. Those who believe otherwise are conspiracy theorists and have no proof it was anything other than an accident.
    Israel gets the most aid from the US. Israel was created by invasion by Zionists with the help of Great Britain, the US, and the UN inviting decades, if not centuries of blowback. Israel tried to sink the USS Liberty purposely with no doubt as to the ship's identification killing many brave US sailors in the process. Israelis have been convicted numerous times for stealing US secrets. There are many Israeli dual citizens in our government and AIPAC is probably the most powerful lobbying organization in the US.

    So it should be obvious why there are more fingers pointed at the Israelis.
    Member of Ron Paul Forums Double Flat Tariff Only Society - Working towards eliminating all the foreign producer/outsource subsidizing internal federal taxes in favor of an across the board flat tariff applied equally to every country and every product.

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