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  1. #1

    Exclamation U.S. State Department: Israel discriminates against Christians

    How will this effect $30 Billion dollar US tax payers aid to Israel announced recently?

    Quote:

    06/11/2009

    U.S. State Department: Israel is not a tolerant society

    By Akiva Eldar


    Israel dismally fails the requirements of a tolerant pluralistic society, according to a new report from the U.S. State Department.

    Despite boasting religious freedom and protection of all holy sites, Israel falls short in tolerance toward minorities, equal treatment of ethnic groups, openness toward various streams within society, and respect for holy and other sites.

    The comprehensive report, written by the State Department's Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, says Israel discriminates against groups including Muslims, Jehova's Witnesses, Reform Jews, Christians, women and Bedouin.

    The report says that the 1967 law on the protection of holy places refers to all religious groups in the country, including in Jerusalem, but "the government implements regulations only for Jewish sites. Non-Jewish holy sites do not enjoy legal protection under it because the government does not recognize them as official holy sites."

    At the end of 2008, for example, all of the 137 officially recognized holy sites were Jewish. Moreover, Israel issued regulations for the identification, preservation and guarding of Jewish sites only. Many Christian and Muslim sites are said to be neglected, inaccessible or at risk of exploitation by real estate entrepreneurs and local authorities.

    The report makes it clear that practices that have become routine in Israel are considered unacceptable in enlightened countries and should be corrected.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126286.html



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  3. #2
    They used to ban immigration from jews that identified themselves as Christian jews....not sure if that ban is still in place or not.

    When a nation is founded on racism does anything like this really surprise anybody??
    "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."--Thomas Jefferson

  4. #3
    That ban may still be in place although US has been putting lot of pressure for reforms post 9/11. Thier goal apparently for legalizing various discriminations has been to presrrve "racial purity".

  5. #4
    I'm waiting for our glorious government to state the same about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc. but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by virgil47 View Post
    I'm waiting for our glorious government to state the same about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc. but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.
    You mean Saudi Arabia - where wearing a crucifix or owning a Christian Bible is against the law?

    Shut up - we're only allowed to bash Israel here.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    You mean Saudi Arabia - where wearing a crucifix or owning a Christian Bible is against the law?

    Shut up - we're only allowed to bash Israel here.
    Nah, any barbaric country that the US government gives aid to, shields in some way, or makes excuses for is a prime candidate for bashing. That said, the obvious reason we focus on bashing Israel here is because they have orders of magnitude more influence over our own government. It's pretty sickening when, no matter what another country's government does, our own government consistently puts that country's government ahead of our own country's people. A country with undue influence over our lives is naturally going to be bashed harder for their crimes than a country with significantly less influence over us. (Or maybe we all hate them for their freedom? )

    However, this made me think of something: We should probably focus on exposing Uzbekistan and bashing them to hell and back, too. They don't actually shape our foreign policy like the Israel lobby does, but it seems they sure as hell enable the worst of it.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 11-08-2009 at 04:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Nah, any barbaric country that the US government gives aid to, shields in some way, or makes excuses for is a prime candidate for bashing. That said, the obvious reason we focus on bashing Israel here is because they have orders of magnitude more influence over our own government. It's pretty sickening when, no matter what another country's government does, our own government consistently puts that country's government ahead of our own country's people. A country with undue influence over our lives is naturally going to be bashed harder for their crimes than a country with significantly less influence over us. (Or maybe we all hate them for their freedom? )
    I don't know. Compare these two threads.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ht=olive+trees

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=215142

    Considerably more anger over Jews burning Palestinian olive trees in Israel than over Muslims killing Christians in Pakistan.

    I've never been one to care much about Israel - but I don't like hypocrisy or double standards. I am well aware of Christian prosecution in Muslim lands - and I still get emails to that effect from my old Church - but that doesn't seem to bother as many people here.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by virgil47 View Post
    I'm waiting for our glorious government to state the same about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc. but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.
    Egypt is the only one on this lis that gets billions in yearly aid from us also, as a bribe for keeping peace treaty with Israel apparently. I doubt State would raise issue of gross human rights abuse in Egypt, dictatorship, torture chambers etc - probably because we would then have one less country to rendition anti-democracy suspects for enhanced torture.

    Given what is going on in US and in Iraq/Afghanistan lately, we probably have very little moral standing/political capital to lecture anyone in the world on freedom, racial equality and human rights who is not getting billions in our tax payers donations every year.

    And post 9/11, Israel is also a special case in US foreign policy and national security considerations because of Palestinian occupation issue, and one we have leverage with because of highest per capita aid it receives from US tax payers.

    SA is sacred, they got oil and US/world economy needs oil, so it could be considered economically selfish to not apply human rights laws on that friendly dicatorship that also happens to be one of the most repressive. Even when they led Oil emargo against US/West over Israel occupation of arab land in 1973, western nations were shy to criticize their human rights record despite having to stand in long lines at the pumps. But SA's oppression is against its own people primarily unlike in case of Israel and does not create the kind of anti-Americanism and terror threats for us as Israeli oppression does.
    Last edited by Liberty Star; 11-08-2009 at 06:31 PM.



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  11. #9
    Well, there are other countries that receive aid from the United States and I don't see half as much finger pointing at them.

    Personally, I don't like any country getting aid from the U.S., and believe giving aid to all of those countries is what allows many of them to turn against the U.S. with the weapons the U.S. gave them money to buy.

    So far, Israel has not turned against the U.S. with those weapons, expect for that one time people keep posting about. I would suspect it was an accident. Those who believe otherwise are conspiracy theorists and have no proof it was anything other than an accident.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Well, there are other countries that receive aid from the United States and I don't see half as much finger pointing at them.
    That's because it's mostly not even about the financial aid. Granted, that's quite upsetting as well, but it's secondary to:
    • the immense influence the Israeli lobby has on our overall foreign policy
    • our unconditional protection of their country from all harm
    • the fact that so many Americans actually think the above two situations are actually somehow okay

    Can you name any other foreign country in the world, other than Israel, that our foreign policy is constructed from the ground up to accomodate, and that ordinary Americans feel a religious sense of loyalty towards? The aid is upsetting, but the focus on Israel is obviously not about the aid by itself. It's the fact that there's one particular country, out of all of the countries in the world, that the United States government prioritizes above the American people themselves. We cannot even have a freaking President elected unless he essentially pledges his undying loyalty to a foreign country first...and that country isn't Pakistan or Saudi Arabia!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Personally, I don't like any country getting aid from the U.S., and believe giving aid to all of those countries is what allows many of them to turn against the U.S. with the weapons the U.S. gave them money to buy.

    So far, Israel has not turned against the U.S. with those weapons, expect for that one time people keep posting about. I would suspect it was an accident. Those who believe otherwise are conspiracy theorists and have no proof it was anything other than an accident.
    I agree that the "Remember the USS Liberty" people focus too much on that one incident, which may have been accidental, especially given the Israeli government's incentive to stay on our government's good side. (Of course, they may have very well known they had leeway, given the prevailing "politically correct" opinion that they can do no wrong.)
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 11-08-2009 at 11:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post


    I agree that the "Remember the USS Liberty" people focus too much on that one incident, which may have been accidental, especially given the Israeli government's incentive to stay on our government's good side.
    I don't think you know much about the USS Liberty attack if you would even entertain for a moment that it was "accidental"....

    Israel and the U.S. actions and cover-up were no "accident"....the only "accident" is that they didn't sink the ship!!!

    How exactly can you explain attacking by air a US ship with its U.S. flag flying high in a breeze???
    "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."--Thomas Jefferson

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by fj45lvr View Post
    I don't think you know much about the USS Liberty attack if you would even entertain for a moment that it was "accidental"....

    Israel and the U.S. actions and cover-up were no "accident"....the only "accident" is that they didn't sink the ship!!!

    How exactly can you explain attacking by air a US ship with its U.S. flag flying high in a breeze???
    Sorry, I didn't mean to give you a coronary. From what I know of the USS Liberty attack - which you are correct is very little, since I'm not the best at committing details to memory - I agree that it seemed intentional. Still, I haven't studied it enough to know that for certain, and the controversy surrounding it even on these boards has been enough to make me entertain for a moment the idea that it was accidental. Really, you shouldn't read too much into my opinion on the USS Liberty.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Well, there are other countries that receive aid from the United States and I don't see half as much finger pointing at them.

    Personally, I don't like any country getting aid from the U.S., and believe giving aid to all of those countries is what allows many of them to turn against the U.S. with the weapons the U.S. gave them money to buy.

    So far, Israel has not turned against the U.S. with those weapons, expect for that one time people keep posting about. I would suspect it was an accident. Those who believe otherwise are conspiracy theorists and have no proof it was anything other than an accident.
    Israel gets the most aid from the US. Israel was created by invasion by Zionists with the help of Great Britain, the US, and the UN inviting decades, if not centuries of blowback. Israel tried to sink the USS Liberty purposely with no doubt as to the ship's identification killing many brave US sailors in the process. Israelis have been convicted numerous times for stealing US secrets. There are many Israeli dual citizens in our government and AIPAC is probably the most powerful lobbying organization in the US.

    So it should be obvious why there are more fingers pointed at the Israelis.
    Member of Ron Paul Forums Double Flat Tariff Only Society - Working towards eliminating all the foreign producer/outsource subsidizing internal federal taxes in favor of an across the board flat tariff applied equally to every country and every product.

  16. #14
    Ron Paul / Mini-Me
    2012
    Because

    Mini-Me has pwned every ass in this thread.
    Pandora's box is not only open but its sides have been split with a razor and it now resides in a dumpster.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dieseler View Post
    Ron Paul / Mini-Me
    2012
    Because

    Mini-Me has pwned every ass in this thread.
    Haha, thanks, I think...unless you're poking fun at me for monopolizing the conversation with my rants.
    http://xkcd.com/386/
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  18. #16



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Haha, thanks, I think...unless you're poking fun at me for monopolizing the conversation with my rants.
    http://xkcd.com/386/
    Nah Boss, you won this hands down, I am truly humbled.



    That's awesome hehe.
    Last edited by Dieseler; 11-09-2009 at 01:42 AM.
    Pandora's box is not only open but its sides have been split with a razor and it now resides in a dumpster.

  21. #18
    I was going to say the same thing.

    Mini-Me's coherent and logical temperance is a breath of fresh air. I wish Mini-Me were right about other people not simply hating Jews and Israel, and bashing them to kingdom come (lol), but that's pretty much why Mini-Me stands out.
    We accept both kinds of political theories here; No government and Anarchy. Ronpaulforums.com "Big Tent"

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Promontorium View Post
    I was going to say the same thing.

    Mini-Me's coherent and logical temperance is a breath of fresh air. I wish Mini-Me were right about other people not simply hating Jews and Israel, and bashing them to kingdom come (lol), but that's pretty much why Mini-Me stands out.
    Mini-me lays the issue and argument out very well and I concur with his posts completely.

    A lot of us are just plain tired of typing all that out over and over whenever some low post Israel-firster shows up on RPF just to stir the pot and dish out a dose of "anti-semite!!!11!!!1" accusations. I've been on this site since 2007. I'm not typing all that out anymore. In fact, I'm about to change my sig for the first time since I've been a member here so I will never have to type it all out again.
    Last edited by devil21; 11-09-2009 at 02:28 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Promontorium View Post
    I was going to say the same thing.

    Mini-Me's coherent and logical temperance is a breath of fresh air. I wish Mini-Me were right about other people not simply hating Jews and Israel, and bashing them to kingdom come (lol), but that's pretty much why Mini-Me stands out.
    Thanks...

    You raise an interesting point though: Along with other posters like me, I may be projecting my views onto other people who very well may be anti-Israel for petty racist reasons. I hope that's not the case, but it's possible. Still, the actual racist posters make me wonder about the chicken and the egg problem: Do they hate Israel so much because they hate Jews, or did they grow to hate Jews because they hate Israel so much? Granted, neither one is actually defensible: Israeli citizens are only as responsible for what the Israeli government does as I am for what the US government does, and so Jewish people in general certainly can't be held responsible for Israel, considering they're not even all Israeli! Still, I wonder.

    Honestly, I get the feeling that among the people who actually hate the Jews, most of them probably did not grow up hating the Jews (i.e. prejudice without any basis whatsoever). Even though I despise being associated with them because they make people with legitimate concerns about Israel look bad, I get the feeling that the racists may have started out with some legitimate concerns too...but that they were too collectivist-minded and emotionally-driven to maintain a mental separation between the Israeli government and Jewish people as a race. I noticed this in some of tones's posts a long time ago, and I got the impression that she was probably neutral or even pro-Israeli at one point, but that she must have become more and more jaded over time until finally slipping up and making comments lumping "the Jews" together, as if they're a hive mind or something.

    Ironically, I think the Defamation League and their allies play a role here by conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism: Because they're constantly exposing people to this angle, we're all having the idea shoved down our throats that "Israel = The Jews," and the constant repetition may be gradually wearing on some people until they actually believe it themselves. Over time, some of the people who used to legitimately criticize Israel and the Zionists begin blaming "the Joos" for everything. You probably see similar transformations in real life: You might know someone who used to be reasonable, but then had a bad experience with a walking stereotype or two and now hates all Mexicans (for example). It's boorish and appalling, but I also think it's pretty depressing how so many people let their collectivist tendencies get out of control until they're reduced to the level of petty racism.

    I'd just really like to think they're in the minority here, for multiple reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Israeli citizens are only as responsible for what the Israeli government does as I am for what the US government does, and so Jewish people in general certainly can't be held responsible for Israel, considering they're not even all Israeli! Still, I wonder.
    This is true. You can speak out against various Israeli policies more vehemently within Israel as an Israeli than here in the U.S. And believe me there are many Israeli and Non-Israeli Jews that are not "on board" with what certain jews and the Israeli government has, is and will do to the Palestinian people and private property rights.
    "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."--Thomas Jefferson

  25. #22
    Yes the do get most aid from our tax payers and are more married to our aid and therefore to us than any of the other countries being brought up. When it's time to give them aid and weeapons, they are the only "shiny hill and modern democracy" in mideast and when it comes time to hold them to modern civilization standards, they are suddenly dropped down and compared with other "backard dictatorships" in the world.
    This irrational support among some for this violent regime and top Anti-Americanism catalyst is simply amazing in the post 9/11 world.

  26. #23

    Wink

    The good news is a libertarian we shouldnt care what they do in Israel, which of course means they dont a right to care what we do in the US

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by WClint View Post
    The good news is a libertarian we shouldnt care what they do in Israel, which of course means they dont a right to care what we do in the US
    That's not right. A libertarian can care, we just need to realize that we cannot enforce our morality on someone else.
    Libertarians - trying to improve the world through ideas and free markets rather than legislation and prisons.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by WClint View Post
    The good news is a libertarian we shouldnt care what they do in Israel, which of course means they dont a right to care what we do in the US
    How would a "libertarian" logically explain war on terra without looking at what Israel does while supported by us?

  30. #26
    little bump for a thread Ive had in my sig for the last 3 years
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    little bump for a thread Ive had in my sig for the last 3 years
    Israel discriminates against all who are not followers of the Talmud. They have since they officially became a recognized nation in 1948.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    little bump for a thread Ive had in my sig for the last 3 years
    Ironic that you bumped it just now since I actually found it by finally noticing the link in your sig. Thank you. I can see why people are fans of Mini-Me
    I am the spoon.

  33. #29
    Latest humanitarian news: A West Bank settlement where tourist-families go for a fun weekend learning how to "shoot terrorists"

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...243882,00.html
    The American Dream, Wake Up People, This is our country! <===click

    "All eyes are opened, or opening to the rights of man, let the annual return of this day(July 4th), forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them."
    Thomas Jefferson
    June 1826



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  34. #30
    bump for Mini-Me's quality argument during Israeli/Palestinian conflicts
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

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