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Thread: Danish Wind Power Experts Warn America About Relying on Wind Generated Electricity

  1. #1

    Danish Wind Power Experts Warn America About Relying on Wind Generated Electricity

    Two Danish experts in the field of wind energy are in the United States the next three days to warn about the dangers of putting our electricity needs in the wind power basket. By Ed Hiserodt

    Danish Wind Power Overblown


    Ed Hiserodt | The New American
    15 September 2009


    Two Danish experts in the field of wind energy will be in Washington for the next three days to speak on the subject of wind generated electricity. One would expect they are here to brag on the fact that their country is a leader in the field and that they already satisfy, as President Obama puts it, "20 percent of the electricity through wind power." One would be wrong in such an expectation. They are here to warn us about the dangers of putting our electricity needs in the wind power basket.

    A nation of 5.4 million — between Missouri and Wisconsin in population — the windy nation is "carpeted" with wind turbines. Of the electricity generated from all sources, the 5,500 wind turbines contribute about 19 percent of the country's electrical demand. But this is far less than the amount utilized by the Danish people, which varies between 5 and 10 percent. Why the disparity? This is explained in a report — “An Assessment of Danish wind power: The real state-of-play and its hidden costs" (pdf) — authored by Hugh Sharman, an engineer and founder of a company specializing in off-shore structures. It is Mr. Sharman and Martin Agerup, chief executive officer of Copenhagen-based Center for Politiske Studier, who are in the U.S. to alert American audiences of what the true energy situation is in Denmark.

    Concerns are many, primarily the problem of system instability when the wind energy component nears 10 percent in most applications. Electricity has a value based not just on the power produced, but on when it is available. When there is over-capacity, power is sold by West Denmark to customers in Germany and to the UCTE grid in Europe. In a similar situation, power from West Denmark (the East and West grids are not connected) is sold to Finland, Sweden, and Norway. Norway uses a portion of this for pumped storage thus increasing its value. Since this occurs when the electrical demand by Denmark's customers is also low, the electricity is sold below cost — the difference being made up by taxes and residential rate payers. (Industrial customers are given very preferential treatment in electricity pricing policy.)

    Unfortunately for the Danes, when the winds aren't blowing to produce sufficient power, they then become the customers of their customers. But now the value of the electricity is very high. As a consequence the Danish people have the highest electric rates of any industrialized nation, an average of about $.38 per kWh compared to $.08 in the United States.

    It could be much worse were it not for the countries that Denmark is tied to by electrical grids and that consume about 100 times the power of Denmark. These countries act as a kind of energy spring: When Denmark has an excess, they have a place to put it rather than shutting down their wind farms. When power is needed, other suppliers provide a ready source to step in a ship the necessary megawatt-hours. The United States is not in such a position. We have no energy "big brother" to come to our rescue. We, then, must have generating capabilities necessary to back up all the unreliable wind power and consequently cannot safely shut down any of our current generating plants, and indeed must build more back-up conventional plants anytime the grid needs additional capacity.

    The other big mistake that the United States is being pushed toward by environmentalists and their patron in the White House is that of "green jobs." Jobs in the wind industry are always subsidized. When a worker in a non-subsidized industry moves into a subsidized one, there is a double hit on the economy: The "green" job requires the government to take capital from the economy, and the loss of the non-subsidized job precludes the creation of wealth. Much as in Spain where "green jobs" can require a subsidy of $1,000,000 per job, wind-related jobs in Denmark are subsidized at the rate of 175 to 250 percent above average pay, roughly costing taxpayers $90,000 to $140,00 for each "green" employee.

    Thomas J. Pyle, president of the Institute for Energy Research (IER) that commissioned the report, is unequivocal in his warning: "In the case of Denmark, you have a nation of 5.4 million, occupying some of the most wind-intense real estate in Europe — and it still doesn't even come close to the 20 percent threshold envisioned by President Obama for the United States. This may indeed be the model for the future — but only if you believe that a combination of smoke, mirrors, and prohibitively high utility rates are the key to our economic and environmental salvation."


    SOURCE:
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/index....ower-overblown
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  3. #2
    I have long supported wind power for small residential consumers to have generators on their own property with battery storage, but also have felt that commercial and single-source power are never a good idea.

    Wind is a viable step in residential self sufficiency, but is worthless for national grid.

    My grandparents powered their north dakota farm on windmills in the '20s and '30s until the local government forced them onto the grid.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
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    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  4. #3
    Duh! It's called math and really it was easy to figure this out years ago. They happen to have relied on more wind than they could get away with and learned a valuable lesson. It is still a good source of energy seeing they have the resource but diversification is key to sustaining a viable economy.

  5. #4
    Wind is awful, unless you live in a mountain valley or some such place with continuously high, but not TOO high winds.

    I live in Lubbock, a city known for its winds, and the average windspeed here isn't even high enough to reach the "takeoff" for home production. Wind might be good for pumping water, but not much else.

    My neighbors actually got a wind system for Y2K, but the damn thing never produced enough power to even power its own electronics.

  6. #5
    Duh! It's called math and really it was easy to figure this out years ago. They happen to have relied on more wind than they could get away with and learned a valuable lesson. It is still a good source of energy seeing they have the resource but diversification is key to sustaining a viable economy.

    Texas panhandle is a good wind corridor.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Objectivist View Post
    Duh! It's called math and really it was easy to figure this out years ago. They happen to have relied on more wind than they could get away with and learned a valuable lesson. It is still a good source of energy seeing they have the resource but diversification is key to sustaining a viable economy.

    Texas panhandle is a good wind corridor.
    It's fine for large scale turbines, but not for consumer-scale ones.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by tmosley View Post
    It's fine for large scale turbines, but not for consumer-scale ones.
    What do you consider a consumer version? They're getting cheaper all the time and many small towns have pitched in for larger units 500kw and above.
    http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/

  9. #8
    The issue with wind is that you have to overbuild, because wind might not be blowing at one location its always blowing somewhere. You also need failovers for those rare cases where I just lied, and the wind isn't blowing, anywhere...

    The way to employ it is to mix it in with solar, with nat gas, or other source as a failover...
    The southern end of the 'wind corridor' is really good because they have wind, are decent for solar (almost as much solar as Arizona with more wind), and are fairly close to nat gas deposits...

    If a smart company could co-locate the generation from these sources, cross training their labor pool to effectively manage all three, they could keep costs down while producing a reliable product.
    Last edited by Dforkus; 09-17-2009 at 06:30 AM.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Objectivist View Post
    What do you consider a consumer version? They're getting cheaper all the time and many small towns have pitched in for larger units 500kw and above.
    http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/
    Anything below 5kW. Especially the units in the 1-2 kW range.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    The issue with wind is that you have to overbuild, because wind might not be blowing at one location its always blowing somewhere. You also need failovers for those rare cases where I just lied, and the wind isn't blowing, anywhere...

    The way to employ it is to mix it in with solar, with nat gas, or other source as a failover...
    The southern end of the 'wind corridor' is really good because they have wind, are decent for solar (almost as much solar as Arizona with more wind), and are fairly close to nat gas deposits...

    If a smart company could co-locate the generation from these sources, cross training their labor pool to effectively manage all three, they could keep costs down while producing a reliable product.
    As long as they don't do the TBoone Pickens approch and try for land grabs under imeninent domain because wind/solar happen to be popular and water lines for selling privately owned water rights are not. Pay the market value for the land used by trasmission lines see where that puts the costs and I could get behind this.

  13. #11
    bump
    “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  14. #12
    It seems to me if you had a windmill in a windy place that spun most of the time and the grid always took the energy from the windmill first and then used other sources to fill the need, wind would be a valuable contributor.

    I think that the 850 square feet of solar panels on my roof will meet our power hungry needs and even fuel one EV. I do not live in a solar sun haven. People living in Utah, NM or other sunnier places could meet their demands with a smaller system.

    I would not support solar or wind or any alternative energy source to be green. I want to have some control over my costs and availability. Winter is around the corner, I will be firing up my coal stoves for heat.



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