Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: "US constitution enabling the establishment of a dictatorship" foretold in 1947

  1. #1

    Default "US constitution enabling the establishment of a dictatorship" foretold in 1947

    I just came across this interesting anecdote while reading about some mathematicians:

    Gödel had confided in them that he had discovered an inconsistency in the U.S. Constitution, one that would allow the U.S. to become a dictatorship.
    That's the mathematician Kurt Gödel, who almost blew his chances at becoming a US citizen by announcing he thought the constitution would enable a dictatorship to be established. Quite foreboding.

    http://morgenstern.jeffreykegler.com/
    The Madhouse - a critical study of Swedish society
    www.danielhammarberg.com - my book publishing website



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2

    Default

    I don't know what prompted me to read about Gödel last night and today (maybe McCarthy's upcoming book) but I think these guys are right and it's Article V.

    http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blo...dworkin_p.html

    enzo rossi said...

    I have heard somewhere that Goedel pointed out that the wording of article five is such that even that article is open to amendment. Thus the constitution could be changed and immunized from further changes, as it were.
    constitutional said...

    the scholarly article makes the following argument: the 10th amendment to the united states constitution (and later ones as well) limit the powers of Article V. this would (by paradox of self-amendment) prove the 18th amendment (end of prohibition) unconstitutional. but numerous court decisions upheld the 18. for our case only Leser v. Garnet, 258 U.S. 130 (1922) is interesting, because it features the following decision:

    "[T]he function of a State legislature in ratifying a proposed amendment to the Federal Constitution, like the function of Congress in proposing the amendment, is a federal function derived from the Federal Constitution; and it transcends any limitations sought to be imposed by the people of a State."

    By giving congress the right to amend the constitution as they see fit, as well as giving congress the right to allow state legislature ratification, as well as denying it to the people, effectively 2000 or so people (federal and state legislators) rule the land. oligarchy. but more important Leser v. Garnet's wording of "transcends any limitations" gives implicit power to strip the people of every constitutional right.

    In this context the article mentions:

    "Gödel studied the U.S. constitution in preparation for his oral citizenship examination in 1948. He noticed that the AC had procedural limitations but no substantive limitations; hence it could be used to overturn the democratic institutions described in the rest of the constitution."
    About that book...

    http://www.crossmap.com/blogs/more-o...passenger-6750

    One person asked who Kurt Gödel was and why is he important to the story. Again, I'm not sure the role Gödel plays in the book. I can only go off the how his name was mentioned during the reading. Gödel is a hero of the main character. Maybe Gödel acts as a metaphor for mathematics, logic, and mental instability (sadly, Mr. Gödel was institutionalized later in his life, much like the character in the novel appears to be). As far as Gödel's life: he was an Austrian-American mathematician, philosopher, and logician. In his work he dealt with recursive axiomatic systems. From these systems we now have Gödel numbering. Additionally, Gödel was a believer in God, and sought various proofs for God's existence. A helpful book I read several years back is called Gödel: A Life of Logic by John Casti and Werner DePauli. I recommend the read.
    Can't wait!
    Last edited by Lucille; 08-13-2016 at 09:56 AM.
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  4. #3

    Default

    The Paradox of Self-Amendment:
    A Study of Law, Logic, Omnipotence, and Change
    http://legacy.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/psa/
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  5. #4

    Default

    Gödel's theorem is important.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  6. #5

    Default

    i think we already have a dictator and have had one for 35 yrs or he could be called a king .

    in the land of the blind a one eyed man would be king .

  7. #6

    Default

    Pfft...the anti federalists warned everybody about this is 1789.

  8. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Pfft...the anti federalists warned everybody about this is 1789.
    If only the anti-Feds fought as hard against the Feds as they did the Monarch.
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  9. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Pfft...the anti federalists warned everybody about this is 1789.
    This ^. Having agreed that point, it amazes me why people would think that somehow the US Constitution contains magic fairy dust that allows for it to be the only perfect self enforcing rule, law, or system of government ever devised by man. While the utmost exertions of human genius available were employed in its creation, and it is a remarkable document, its creators were well aware that it was only a framework by wich a people determined to be free could remain so if they so chose. Encroachmens resulting in tyranny are not a resultof the failure of the magic fairy dust, but of a people willing to trade liberty for percieved economic security.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  10. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Pfft...the anti federalists warned everybody about this is 1789.
    First thing I thought too.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  11. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Pfft...the anti federalists warned everybody about this is 1789.
    Yepsters.
    There is no spoon.

  12. #11

    Default

    That Gödel would find such a flaw in no way surprises me. Gödel had eyes few others could even imagine.

    As for flaws in the Constitution, it requires no Gödel to find them.

    "The fact is that the average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men. It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority, like knowledge, courage and honor. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty - and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies."
    -- H.L. Mencken






Similar Threads

  1. GOP establishment silent as Trump repeats "little Marco","lying Ted" slurs almost daily
    By enhanced_deficit in forum 2016 Presidential Election: GOP & Dem
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 03-15-2016, 09:37 PM
  2. Enabling Acts: Path To Dictatorship?
    By Suzanimal in forum Ron Paul Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-30-2015, 04:57 AM
  3. "Bastiat Foretold of Ron Paul’s Struggle"
    By sailingaway in forum Ron Paul Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-24-2013, 08:49 PM
  4. Newt Gingrich Gingrich says he would "replace" Assad because he is running a "bad dictatorship."
    By sailingaway in forum 2012 Presidential Election
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-08-2011, 10:53 PM
  5. Ron Paul: "Enabling a Future American Dictator"
    By malkusm in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-30-2011, 11:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •