"How do we stuff federal government back into the box it belongs in?"

[PaulaGem]

In the following paper Dr. Paul talks about how we are being tricked into thinking bigger government is better government by abusing words like "freedom" and "democracy".

Democracy Is Not Freedom

If we hope to remain free, we must cut through the fog and attach concrete meanings to the words politicians use to deceive us. We must reassert that America is a republic, not a democracy, and remind ourselves that the Constitution places limits on government that no majority can overrule. We must resist any use of the word “freedom” to describe state action. We must reject the current meaningless designations of “liberals” and “conservatives,” in favor of an accurate term for both: statists.

So, If I walked up to Dr. Paul today and asked him - "How are we the people supposed to take back the power that the federal government has appropriated and stuff it back into the little box it belongs in? What techniques and methods would you recommend? "


What does he say?

What do you say?

[PaulaGem]

While I notice you've reposted this on another thread ... I'll answer here, since my answer relates to the appreciation of "democracy."

Yes .... the founding fathers setup a system whereby the people could use the vote to overhaul the system. Yes ... We must strive to vote in elected officials that will respect, uphold and adhere to the constitution.

What's the point if they can literally control an election like they did in Ohio in 2004?

But, as a Constitutional Republic, drastic change by popular vote would have been viewed as a things-are-way-out-of-control scenario. The 2nd Amendment was more intended for that than the vote of the majority. The checks are balances designed by division between executive, legislative and judicial bodies ... all checked by the states.

As I understand it, the only thing that can't be altered by popular vote is those things which violate the Constitution. Second amendment? "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So you are saying armed revolution is the only answer?

Overall, the "popular vote" was not considered trustworthy or worthwhile. In fact, the Constitution prevent the majority vote from having much of any impact on things.

I disagree. I believe that the forefathers envisioned local and state governments derived from popular votes on local and state issues and legislators. I believe they expected accountability to the people all the way up the chain of command.

As such ... the practical steps are to use the vehicles that are available to return the country to the Constitution.

Almost all voters are only concerned enough to vote for who make the ticket. There is only a slight uptick of interest on primary elections. Thus, one important avenue for change is to influence who makes it onto the ballot. That doesn't mean try and get greater participation of popular vote into who gets on the ballot ... it means get involved in levels that influence ballot access.

Isn't the pretty impractical since primaries are also a function of the political machine and the party system, even down to the most intimate levels of government such as a city council or school board? I believe the "party system" at this level of government is obscene.

The CFL is another vehicle for returning to the Constitution. Organize and direct efforts to influence already elected officials.

It's pretty close to impossible to influence and direct officials that are responsible to the power base that put them there and not the people. The only reason HR 1207 is gaining support is that the whole country is finally starting to realize who the real terrorists are.

Yes, the ballot box is important. But, if you haven't set things up way before election day, you've already lost.

The ballot box and pre- election day maneuvering is controlled by "them". As it stands now it is irrelevant.


The above post is from another thread I want to answer it here.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpos...&postcount=236

[Dr.3D]

I tend to agree with PaulaGem on this issue.
When it comes to voting making a change, we are mostly up against a stacked deck.

It seems those who would control the politics of the U.S. have placed those who they would like to have political positions in the spotlight to the exclusion of those the people of this country would rather have in those positions. Through the use of the controlled media, the public is made to think they have no other choice than to pick between the bad or worse candidate. Any candidate those in power would not like to see in a position of power is pretty much isolated and ridiculed or ignored to the point there becomes only two choices and the two choices are always between the two those in power would like to have in those positions.

[PaulaGem]

I tend to agree with PaulaGem on this issue.
When it comes to voting making a change, we are mostly up against a stacked deck.

It seems those who would control the politics of the U.S. have placed those who they would like to have political positions in the spotlight to the exclusion of those the people of this country would rather have in those positions. Through the use of the controlled media, the public is made to think they have no other choice than to pick between the bad or worse candidate. Any candidate those in power would not like to see in a position of power is pretty much isolated and ridiculed or ignored to the point there becomes only two choices and the two choices are always between the two those in power would like to have in those positions.

That's why I stayed home last election day. I was set to vote for Obama because what the Republicans had given us under the Bush regime was so very bad...

Then I started getting way too many calls on my cell phone - I had given my number to what I thought was an independent pro-Kerry group in 2004. By election day I had decided that Obama was just a Bush in blackface. I decided not to vote and was really bummed out.

There were people walking the streets on election day who apparently knew who had voted and who had not because they came back to my house several times and demanded to speak with me in spite of the fact that my boyfriend said I wasn't feeling well and didn't want to come to the door.

It was sort of scary, really.

[PaulaGem]

Do you really think $#@! would be different if the elections were not rigged? We've been going down hill for a lot longer than thirty years. All the Republican and Democratic candidates in the primaries are scumbag status quo types, democracy just allows all of these amoral characters to compete at who is the best liar/manipulator and who can siphon off the most taxpayer monies to special interest groups.

We would have been just as screwed had we Gore or Kerry for President, you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

I believe people have to start demanding change at the local level and it will filter upward to the national level. I believe starting at the top is like banging your head against the wall, it's only going to feel better if you stop.

I think making sure the vote is not rigged and encouraging non-partisan activity at the local level is a first step.

[Original_Intent]

I believe people have to start demanding change at the local level and it will filter upward to the national level. I believe starting at the top is like banging your head against the wall, it's only going to feel better if you stop.

I think making sure the vote is not rigged and encouraging non-partisan activity at the local level is a first step.

I agree.

The voting process needs to be revamped to:

1) Be easily understandable to the voter
2) Provide a tamper-proof physical ballot
3) Provide a clear and tamper-proof audit trail of the physical ballots.
4) Provide a method of verifying the reported vote count against the physical ballots. This should be available to representatives of all political parties (Not just R and D) and also should be available to representatives of independent voters with no party affiliation.

Also, the legal penalties for vote tampering or fraud need to be severe. So severe that no one would consider doing so, such as capital punishment. (i.e. it is an act of treason as it is an attempt to overthrow legitimate government by the people)

Once the voting process is safeguarded to every extent possible, the people need to make some demands of their elected officals. Not requests, demands. Politicians should be required to sign a contract before the election, specifically outlining what they will and will not do in office. If elected, any deviation from this contract shall result in the immediate removal of the elected official and indictment for breach of contract.

Breach of the oath to uphold the Constitution should be tried as treason.

Judges need to be held to their responsibilty of INTERPRETING the law, not making law. Activists judges who legislate from the bench will be removed and possibly tried criminally.

100% agree that the change has to be made from the bottom up. In regards to federal legislation, this starts with electing STATE legislators who will draft legislation that all federal laws enacted in contravention of the 10th amendment are declared NULL and VOID.

The details for accomplishing this would certainly fill volumes if worked out. It certainly will be no easy task.

[Matt Collins]

It must be done by the People holding their State legislators' feet to the fire to resist federal encroachment contrary to the Constitution.

[PaulaGem]

It must be done by the People holding their State legislators' feet to the fire to resist federal encroachment contrary to the Constitution.

Do you really believe the people still have the power to do this?

[fedup100]

We must all shift to local only including our Sheriff's. Then the States must leave the union and form anew alliance. The old corporate fed gov can shove a tator.

We need to stop using their banks, do not get loans for real estate, wrap a sell with a contract. If enough people do this we will starve the beast to death. Set up barter in all our local areas. Acquire accounts like gold bullion to try and do business. They the banksters have put most of these out of business because they knew it would put them out of business.

Does anyone know if there is an e-gold or bullion place left on the web that can be used?

[fedup100]

Do you really believe the people still have the power to do this?

If you saw the video with the lady in the red shirt about the O birth certificate, this is what they fear, this kind of aggressive citizens that mean business. Yes, if we get busy and be this strong and insistent, the states will have to act.

[PaulaGem]

We need to stop using their banks, do not get loans for real estate, wrap a sell with a contract. If enough people do this we will starve the beast to death. Set up barter in all our local areas. Acquire accounts like gold bullion to try and do business. They the banksters have put most of these out of business because they knew it would put them out of business.

Does anyone know if there is an e-gold or bullion place left on the web that can be used?

I would NEVER participate in any electronic metals market. Physcial only.

Did you know that when you ship $1000 dollars worth of metal by fed ex and insure it for $1000 they have the option to pay you only $500? It's in their tarriff.

I did not question UPS on this fine print, but I bet it's the same.

Since I'm in the jewelry business I'm concerned that if a shipment is stolen, FedEx won't pay off on the insurance.

I don't know about elsewhere, but in Colorado all of the local own banks are disappearing. I still have my account in one but don't know how long they'll last.

[Liberty Star]

Who is going to wage war on terra and make us all safe if there is no big almighty, omnipresent Fed gov?

[hillbilly123069]

At least 10k armed citizens storm DC,just like they did in New Hampshire.

[Stary Hickory]

The individual states that comprise this Republic need to just walk away. All the power in DC dissolves if state governments reject it's rule. All states can agree on the constituional role of government, but we cannot all agree on the tyrannical overreaches of the Federal Government.

States walk, and the Federal Government will be left with no recourse other than negotiating back to a more sensible arrangement. I don't see force being used. The civilized world does not behave in that manner, and we have supported most every break away group seeking their independence that there is.

Ultimately the US will either break up due to a government that attempts to rule by force or stay together because the government rules by moral authority in a free union. I still believe 100% that this country cannot be ruled under threat of force alone. When people perceive that the government only wants to rule by use of threat of force they will resist.

[YBNORMAL]

Politicians should be required to sign a contract before the election, specifically outlining what they will and will not do in office. If elected, any deviation from this contract shall result in the immediate removal of the elected official and indictment for breach of contract.

why should we have to bother with this^^^^ when we ALREADY have this:

Breach of the oath to uphold the Constitution should be tried as treason.

The authority is in place already, we currently lack the ENFORCEMENT

ten characters

[hillbilly123069]

Bildeburg is start and finish of this corruption.

[R.Paul 1207 gotta happen]

I agree.

The voting process needs to be revamped to:

1) Be easily understandable to the voter
2) Provide a tamper-proof physical ballot
3) Provide a clear and tamper-proof audit trail of the physical ballots.
4) Provide a method of verifying the reported vote count against the physical ballots. This should be available to representatives of all political parties (Not just R and D) and also should be available to representatives of independent voters with no party affiliation.

Also, the legal penalties for vote tampering or fraud need to be severe. So severe that no one would consider doing so, such as capital punishment. (i.e. it is an act of treason as it is an attempt to overthrow legitimate government by the people)

Once the voting process is safeguarded to every extent possible, the people need to make some demands of their elected officals. Not requests, demands. Politicians should be required to sign a contract before the election, specifically outlining what they will and will not do in office. If elected, any deviation from this contract shall result in the immediate removal of the elected official and indictment for breach of contract.

Breach of the oath to uphold the Constitution should be tried as treason.

Judges need to be held to their responsibilty of INTERPRETING the law, not making law. Activists judges who legislate from the bench will be removed and possibly tried criminally.

100% agree that the change has to be made from the bottom up. In regards to federal legislation, this starts with electing STATE legislators who will draft legislation that all federal laws enacted in contravention of the 10th amendment are declared NULL and VOID.

The details for accomplishing this would certainly fill volumes if worked out. It certainly will be no easy task.

+1, we should put this forth to Ron Paul and see what he says, maybe he can rally for a strict voting precedure if the people suggest it be so.