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Thread: The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles

  1. #1

    Arrow The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles

    "Diverse weights are an abomination unto the LORD, and a false balance is not good." - Proverbs 20:23

    "Lowering interest rates punishes people for saving, thus encouraging consumers and businesses to spend every penny they make...The Federal Reserveís inflationary policies harm the average American by eroding the dollarís purchasing power." - Dr. Ron Paul



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  3. #2

    A Bump for Silence

    Hmmm. No one has anything to say about the twelve principles? It seems we haven't been trained properly about our nation's history and philosophy concerning civil government. I believe those principles gives us an introduction into what our republic was supposed to be for generations.
    "Diverse weights are an abomination unto the LORD, and a false balance is not good." - Proverbs 20:23

    "Lowering interest rates punishes people for saving, thus encouraging consumers and businesses to spend every penny they make...The Federal Reserveís inflationary policies harm the average American by eroding the dollarís purchasing power." - Dr. Ron Paul

  4. #3

    Hmmm

    A little too much of your God in there for my taste. I consider myself to be a highly spiritual person. But the last place I want to see my spirtuality is in the hands of government. *shudder* If you want to ruin Christianity, be sure and get government involved. On the other hand, if you love Jesus, you should prohibit politicians from using his name.

    A proper government doesn't need to have a lengthy and well-developed metaphysical explanation of creation and rights. All a proper government needs is a set of massively redundant and unbreakable chains fettering its power. Free people can take care of the rest.

  5. #4
    I agree, the government shouldn't force a religious view on a people or take that standpoint. Using the principles of Christianity that are not at all unique to Christianity--such as do unto others as you would have them do to you, or don't kill--is great, but people deserve religious freedom as well. Religious fundamentalism is not freedom and doesn't bring about justice. Acceptance does.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    1. The Spiritual is Supreme
    No problem with this one, but in spiritual things there can be only one arbiter. Me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    2. Fear of Government-over-Man
    No problem with this one at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    3. Unalienable Rights--From God
    I'd say "From Nature," but ultimately no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    4. Man Organizes Governments to Be His Tools
    In every instance in history I am aware of governments organize men to be their tools
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    5. Limited Government
    Over time there is no such thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    6. Decentralized Government
    Self government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    7. Equal, By God's Gift, In Sight of God and Law
    Again, I'd say "by Nature," but see #3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    8. Life and the Pursuit of Happiness
    Always, everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    9. Liberty--Against Government-over-Man
    Duh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    10. Private Property--Liberty's Support
    Absolutely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    11. Taxes--Limited to Safeguard Liberty
    Taxes--None. If anything fees paid for services rendered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    12. The Majority--Limited for Liberty
    Of course.

  7. #6
    Even so--

    In the context of the time it was the way to help define these new ideas and lend them legitimacy. You must admit that the principles outlined above are far, far superior to the concept labeled 'the divine right of kings'.

    Even today to say that we are endowed by God with inalienable rights is not a bad way to express the thought in certain circles.

    Now, anyone care to look past that and find fault with the precepts themselves? Edit: Ah, I see inibo was on it even as I typed.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Lol, wow, Anthony Weiner, too?

  8. #7
    The Founders based all most all there principles on the faith of God and that we where all free from the beginning. (We all know this)

    Just like Acala, I do have a "spiritual" side but also to have Government mend in religious augmentations does make me "shudder" as-well. In many aspects of our government there are many references to God (ie, Money, Pledge of Allegiance, etc.) but its the general principle and not a "force" of faith that a person must have to be an American.

    Besides all this there is much more critical issues at hand that wants to destroy our Republic and it seems these Ideal's and Principle's mean nothing anymore, and by the Majority of our "Elected officials".
    But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.
    ---John Adam

    If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks, and the corporations which grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.
    ---Thomas Jefferson

  9. #8
    If we can restore their meaning to the people, the chameleons in Washington will at least pay them lip service. Of course, what would actually be useful is if we can get the people to not only embrace them, but use them as a yardstick in measuring their candidates.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Lol, wow, Anthony Weiner, too?



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  11. #9

    Don't Miss the Foundation of Our Ideals

    I think many of you who have responded have failed to understand the nature of the precepts listed in the OP. They come from a Christian worldview and perspective of human nature and civil governments in relation to mankind. Our Founders were deeply Christian men, and they spared no expense to speak publicly about the influence in which their Christian beliefs had upon forming our republic. The twelve principles did not come from a humanistic, nor Islamic, nor Buddhist, nor any other faith system in our American heritage. They only make sense from a Christian paradigm. The fact that many people ignore that fact shows just how far we have fallen from the true intent and character of our nation's beginning.

    Also, it's important to note that all governments are religious by nature. There is no neutrality of beliefs to justify why civil governments should exist or not. The operating assumptions for the state of any government form the basis of legitimacy for why that government should be set up in the first place. In our American republic, our Founders derived those precepts in the OP because they understood the nature of human beings as sinful but redeemable creatures who needed to be governed by God under His law. That is one reason why there was a separation of powers and decentralization of government. It was instituted with the understanding that human beings can be corrupted by too much power and needed to be restrained due to their sinful hearts (Jeremiah 17:9). So, those who say the government should not incorporate a particular religious belief into its system already have missed the point. Governments do that by nature, whether it's Christian, secular, or anything else.
    Last edited by Theocrat; 07-14-2009 at 12:47 PM.
    "Diverse weights are an abomination unto the LORD, and a false balance is not good." - Proverbs 20:23

    "Lowering interest rates punishes people for saving, thus encouraging consumers and businesses to spend every penny they make...The Federal Reserveís inflationary policies harm the average American by eroding the dollarís purchasing power." - Dr. Ron Paul

  12. #10
    It's nice that you've begun reading Bastiat, Theo. If you keep it up, you'll eventually abandon your misguided and irrational faith in the State. (I like "The American Ideal", FWIW)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    It's nice that you've begun reading Bastiat, Theo. If you keep it up, you'll eventually abandon your misguided and irrational faith in the State. (I like "The American Ideal", FWIW)
    I've read Bastiat and I believe in a limited constitutional republic. The ideas of liberty are held by us all. Don't hold your breath that we're going to become anarchists.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  14. #12

    Indulge Me, HB

    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    It's nice that you've begun reading Bastiat, Theo. If you keep it up, you'll eventually abandon your misguided and irrational faith in the State. (I like "The American Ideal", FWIW)
    How is my faith in the State misguided and irrational (by what absolute standard)? For the sake of staying on topic, please be specific and refrain from posting links to articles and books which will take an extended amount of time to read and comprehend.

    Also, it's curious that you would suggest my reading Bastiat will lead to my abandoning belief in the State because I find my reading his writings strongly affirms my beliefs in the legitimacy of the State. It's quite the contrary to what you would have me believe.
    "Diverse weights are an abomination unto the LORD, and a false balance is not good." - Proverbs 20:23

    "Lowering interest rates punishes people for saving, thus encouraging consumers and businesses to spend every penny they make...The Federal Reserveís inflationary policies harm the average American by eroding the dollarís purchasing power." - Dr. Ron Paul

  15. #13
    Monarchy > Republic

    Source: history
    Last edited by powerofreason; 07-14-2009 at 02:58 PM.
    No one can speak for me. No man is above me. None may exercise authority over me while I stand on my own property. The only valid law is the Natural Law discoverable by every man's ability to reason.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    How is my faith in the State misguided and irrational (by what absolute standard)? For the sake of staying on topic, please be specific and refrain from posting links to articles and books which will take an extended amount of time to read and comprehend.

    Also, it's curious that you would suggest my reading Bastiat will lead to my abandoning belief in the State because I find my reading his writings strongly affirms my beliefs in the legitimacy of the State. It's quite the contrary to what you would have me believe.

    To explain all this would be far too time consuming for me. Plus, you've demonstrated that you aren't serious about learning this stuff. I value my time more than educating the willfully ignorant. Perhaps I'll do it in 50-60 years when I'm retired.

    Doing the reading that I and fellow anarchists have suggested would serve you well, and save me a great deal of time and energy. There's always the audio book route if you don't like reading. (I've read your Constitution and so forth which you try to prop up your fallacies with-now it's your turn to read about my philosophy. )
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Don't hold your breath that we're going to become anarchists.
    I won't. It will happen in due course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    I've read Bastiat and I believe in a limited constitutional republic. The ideas of liberty are held by us all.
    Then your ideal constitutional republic doesn't have taxes? Or rather, voluntary "taxes"? That would have to be the liberty ideal, but doesn't the constitution "allow" for taxation?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I won't. It will happen in due course.
    My personal belief is that a stateless society will be the next major stage in human societal evolution. I don't know how long it will take for us to reach that paradigm shift, but I absolutely believe it's coming.

    As a result, I don't feel the need to convince anyone who's unwilling to even give the idea an OBJECTIVE look, since ultimately, they'll come around on their own once a "critical mass" of more willing individuals has been achieved.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraig View Post
    Then your ideal constitutional republic doesn't have taxes? Or rather, voluntary "taxes"? That would have to be the liberty ideal, but doesn't the constitution "allow" for taxation?
    Actually, the constitution places NO EFFECTIVE restraints upon the power of taxation. If Congress wanted to, they could place a 10,000% tax on whatever they desired and, as long as it met the minimal limitations of either apportionment or uniformity, it would be perfectly constitutional.

    Seems a rather poor attempt at limiting government to me.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Seems a rather poor attempt at limiting government to me.
    Well I agree, but I don't think taxes should be limited either.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraig View Post
    Well I agree, but I don't think taxes should be limited either.
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

    ALL taxation is theft, IMO, so I would say that taxes should be limited to 0.

    However, for those who believe in the concept of "limited government," the fact that the constitution basically claims that the government has a right to whatever amount they feel they need to extract from one, at gunpoint, it's basically a flat out repudiation of the concept of individual property rights.

    If they have the constitutional authority to take whatever they feel they need, the idea that one owns ANYTHING is a hollow sham.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  24. #21
    Here's a short LRC podcast on why monarchy is better than forms of democracy. And of course natural order is infinitely better than either.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?...hat_failed.mp3
    No one can speak for me. No man is above me. None may exercise authority over me while I stand on my own property. The only valid law is the Natural Law discoverable by every man's ability to reason.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by powerofreason View Post
    Here's a short LRC podcast on why monarchy is better than forms of democracy. And of course natural order is infinitely better than either.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?...hat_failed.mp3
    Sorry to resurrect this from years and years ago. But what do you mean by 'natural order'?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    Sorry to resurrect this from years and years ago. But what do you mean by 'natural order'?
    hasn't posted 5 years.

    did you expect a response?

    Why?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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