How about instead of states that want freedom seceding, lets kick out the states that don't adhere to the constitution in the first place? Why should we be the ones to leave? Why not tell CA, NY, MA, and a few others to GTFO?
bump!!
You make a great point, +1 for you Sir.Originally Posted by Rael
I'd rather just leave, secession is the more practical and all around better option. But hey if you want the Federal government to rule over your state have at it.
Last edited by Andrew-Austin; 06-27-2009 at 09:36 PM.
Because the Federal Government itself doesn't adhere to the constitution in the first place. That may have something to do with it.
I was going to say, expel DC too
yeah, seriously, tell those ingrates to stop sucking our federal protection and form their own damn military, stop asking us for defend their borders against Mexicans or wait for us to ban gay marriage for them.
This thread is fail. The states created the Federal government, you are implying that under the constitution the federal government is mandated to control the states.
I'm as criticial of the anti Constitution forces as the next guy but would it be fair to expel the whole NY state just because Faux news neocon central is based out of there?
There has to be a more nuanced and just solution out there.
Sometimes I think more libertarians are actually anarcho-capitalists then libertarians.
Big evil federal government. Instead of perhaps working and changing it like Ron Paul. You all go the easy way out and go "succession! succession! succession!" from your keyboards.
secession. and when I say it, I mean it with all my heart. one man against an army is stupid, but with others, I will die for a chance at freedom.
rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler
succession or secession, or expulsion, or exodus, whatever works for my freedom.
And you're not free now?
Why can't we work with the system and mold it to smaller government?
The Liberty movement is growing by leaps and bounds as government becomes larger and larger.
Make no mistake that the government is growing and becoming more powerful by the day. But have we truely lost our freedom? I can say what I want and I can post on these boards, can't I? There is much more time for us to rationally fight by the legal means of laws.
You'd throw all that away for a short burst of revolution? And if you did, you'd be just as bad as the people you claim to despise. Revolutionaries always claim a noble purpose, but just become tyrants themselves.
Rash violent revolutions never work out. The French Revolution, Russian, and so many more. The reason the American revolution worked out was because the temperance of rational men.
Revolution and/or secession is not rational. Working like Ron Paul and many others to bring the government back to its roots, is rational.
its not the states that are the problem, .. its the Federal Government.
The ultimate minority is the individual. Protect the individual from Democracy and you will protect all groups of individualsRightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas JeffersonI must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
As much as the states are concerned, they are just as bloated as the Federal Government. Bloated caricatures sucking the tit of the bloated government.
Regardless of whether the "states are just as bloated", state legislators are closer, live among their constituents, and thereby more accessible. I'll bet nearly none of you have actually donned a suit and tie and visited your state representatives at the Capitol building.The federal government is pretty much a lost cause, but not the states. Yes, state legislators need some arm twisting, too, but it's easier to accomplish with a well-dressed, informed group staring their representative eye to eye.
Last edited by tpreitzel; 06-29-2009 at 12:36 AM.
Well, obviously not, and if you didn't agree, you wouldn't be on these forums.
That would be lovely if it were practical, but having seen it fail so many times, plus the logical impossibility of it, is very discouraging to use that method.Why can't we work with the system and mold it to smaller government?
That's great. However, we shouldn't waste all of that potential energy on working within the crooked system. 1 million people practicing civil disobedience makes a much larger statement than 1 million votes in an election.The Liberty movement is growing by leaps and bounds as government becomes larger and larger.
Just because the government (for now) permits you to (somewhat) exercise free speech doesn't make you free. You're still handing over nearly half of your property to it every year.Make no mistake that the government is growing and becoming more powerful by the day. But have we truely lost our freedom? I can say what I want and I can post on these boards, can't I? There is much more time for us to rationally fight by the legal means of laws.
I don't support violent revolution. Civil disobedience is much more effective, since you're not stooping to the enemy's level. Political participation and violent revolution both resort to the state's level by using violence, albeit indirectly in the former case.You'd throw all that away for a short burst of revolution? And if you did, you'd be just as bad as the people you claim to despise. Revolutionaries always claim a noble purpose, but just become tyrants themselves.
Secession is not violent. It is merely stating that you do not wish to be part of the federal government's jurisdiction anymore. The United States was founded on secession. How can it be rational to try to "bring a government back to it's roots" by continually participating in a political process that by it's very nature ensures that government grows?Rash violent revolutions never work out. The French Revolution, Russian, and so many more. The reason the American revolution worked out was because the temperance of rational men.
Revolution and/or secession is not rational. Working like Ron Paul and many others to bring the government back to its roots, is rational.
Secession would ensure a violent reaction. Thus you are advocating for violence indirectly.
Yes, but nobody said we would have to act violently in return. The government is already violent. Secession is just trying to do something about it. Also, it would look bad for the government to attack non-violent people, thus giving us a moral victory.
You must think that just because you aren't in jail that makes you free.
rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler
I don't get it. How can you be a Ron Paul supporter and not support secession?
I'm not even a libertarian. But I still support secession (like Ron Paul does).
I'd rather leave, I don't want a central government.
How about individual secession?
Let me know how that individual secession works out for you.
If all the southern states combined couldn't keep the central government from enslaving them, I don't see how one person could keep the federal thugs from enslaving them.
Ask Irwin Schiff.
rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler
Succession is what princes do when kings die. Not for me, thanks.
//
rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler
yep, don't look at me, it's always somebody else's fault
Because expulsion would be an initiation of force (unless you could base it on breach of contract, viz. the Constitution or some such legalese). Just my 2 cents.
I don't think expulsion from the union is necessarily initiation of force. In fact, I think that that might be conceivably the only way something like the 14th amendment could be enforced by the federal government in a way that doesn't involve force. But I still don't think expulsion makes much sense practically. Secession of 1 state would only require the determination to do so on the part of the people of that state. But expulsion of 1 state would require the determination to do so on the part of the other 49. In other words, it would be many many times more difficult to wage a successful campaign to bring it about.
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