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Thread: What happens to An American When He Loses his Job

  1. #1

    What happens to An American When He Loses his Job

    I'm Irish and I'm just curious as to what exactly happens when an American loses his job. What Social welfare exists that this man would be entitled to. Also how difficult is it to qualify for welfare and what are 'food stamps', how does this system work, can an unemployed American only buy certain products with such stamps etc.

    Finaly, what is the taboo like around being on the dole in America? Even that question raises a question, the Dole is a slang term used for social welfare in Ireland and the UK and in Australia I think, what slang terms are used in the US?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Eric Arthur Blair; 05-25-2009 at 01:51 PM.



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  3. #2
    Well, I am not speaking from experience...but I believe that anyone who is laid off from a full-time job for reasons other than poor performance are entitled to 6 months of unemployment benefits, which is some percentage of their previous wage.

    I'm not sure about food stamps, though.
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  4. #3
    First he is eligible for unemployment benefits. These are based on a percentage of what he made at his last job, he has to interview for at least two jobs per week, and the benefits last for a limited time after losing a job. There may be other limitations.

    There are food stamps which are meant to buy food only, but I think they are sold on the black market for cash so technically they can buy booze or really anything if they are willing to take a hit.

    I am not sure what all else is available to help with housing, etc. We usually refer to it as "being on welfare" as you would refer to it "being on the dole".

    I think the taboo varies quite a bit depending on the part of the country and how metro the area is. Farming communities tend to think pretty harshly about those on welfare, I think big cities and especially slums it is more accepted because it is more prevalent.

    Farming communities tend to be pretty helpful to help someon thru a rough time, but they do not like freeloaders who could work and try to game the system. And since everyone knows everything about everyone, multi-generational welfare jsut does not happen. unless you consider farm subsidies welfare.
    "The journalist is one who separates the wheat from the chaff, and then prints the chaff." - Adlai Stevenson

    “I tell you that virtue does not come from money: but from virtue comes money and all other good things to man, both to the individual and to the state.” - Socrates

  5. #4
    so its the employer who pays for welfare. What if I was working for a company for three months then got sacked. I probably wouldn't be entitled to anything?

    Also one big difference between America and Europe is the role of Churches. If I lost a job after a few months and wasn't entitled to any welfare. I could go to a church and get some food, or would I have to be a member of the Church. Would any aid be conditional on me attending services etc.

  6. #5
    malkusm and Original_Intent are right. But with unemployment in America, not everybody gets it and you have go through an application process to qualify, which means that much of the time, those that need help the most don't get it.
    It can be like that for welfare, too. There are plenty of Americans who have trouble making ends meet, but still aren't considered poor enough by the government to qualify for food stamps.

    Charity from churches still does exist here as well, though.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Chamdar View Post
    malkusm and Original_Intent are right. But with unemployment in America, not everybody gets it and you have go through an application process to qualify, which means that much of the time, those that need help the most don't get it.
    It can be like that for welfare, too. There are plenty of Americans who have trouble making ends meet, but still aren't considered poor enough by the government to qualify for food stamps.

    Charity from churches still does exist here as well, though.
    So what the hell happens to lets say a family with two kids. They have no one to support them and aren't entitled to any welfare and lets say the local Church ran out of food before they got there, that's it. You go hungry for the night.

    And the libertarian perspective is that even this is to generous, there should be no assistance from the government and corporations should be under no government legal pressure to provide welfare in any shape or form.
    Last edited by Eric Arthur Blair; 05-25-2009 at 01:53 PM.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    So what the hell happens to lets say a family with two kids. They have no one to support them and aren't entitled to any welfare and lets say the local Church ran out of food before they got there, that's it. You go hungry for the night.

    And the libertarian perspective is that even this is to generous, there should be no assistance from the government and corporations should be under no government legal pressure to provide welfare in any shape or form.
    Actually, from the libertarian perspective, the government failed in its job to support them.
    There are a lot of misconceptions about American disdain for taxes and social welfare. It's not so much that we all think both are evil in themselves, but rather because we get very little out of what we're taxed for compared to other developed countries.

    And for the record, I'm really an anarchist, but I have no quarrel with libertarians for the most part.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    So what the hell happens to lets say a family with two kids. They have no one to support them and aren't entitled to any welfare and lets say the local Church ran out of food before they got there, that's it. You go hungry for the night.

    And the libertarian perspective is that even this is to generous, there should be no assistance from the government and corporations should be under no government legal pressure to provide welfare in any shape or form.
    Personally, I have yet to meet a person in this country who has truly gone hungry, not by choice.

    There are so many avenues for people who have nothing to get assistance that it has been taken advantage of by people who are not really in need.

    That is why I disagree with the idea of welfare. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch, and we have lots of bad apples taking from the welfare system. This system is designed, not purposefully(I hope), to break down families. If there are two parents in the home and one is working, then you can be declined for benefits. I've had it happen myself. Social workers will as much as tell you to come back next week when your man has "left". Then you can get free money, food, healthcare, hell they'll even pay for your phone and power if you really don't have a pot to piss in.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Chamdar View Post
    Actually, from the libertarian perspective, the government failed in its job to support them.
    There are a lot of misconceptions about American disdain for taxes and social welfare. It's not so much that we all think both are evil in themselves, but rather because we get very little out of what we're taxed for compared to other developed countries.

    And for the record, I'm really an anarchist, but I have no quarrel with libertarians for the most part.
    This is what I really don't get, you Americans pay more taxes then I do. My income tax is around 20% and I pay a small sales tax on goods (I smoke and drink and sales tax on those thing are very high) but for all that I get free School, subsidized health care, and I got to go to college for free.

    I get very generous welfare if I lose my job (around $200 a week in cash) and lots of other goodies as-well, like subsidized transport etc. In America you pay massive taxes and get practically nothing in return and if worse comes to worse you could be even left to starve to death.

    Just to show how different things are. That family with two kids in Ireland or pretty much anywhere in western Europe could immediately sign on for welfare after losing their job. The application might take a few months to process so in the meantime they could make an emergency request with the Government paid for health service so they would have some cash while the application goes through.
    Last edited by Eric Arthur Blair; 05-25-2009 at 02:22 PM.

  12. #10
    As you probably know the U.S. is divided up into 50 states. I believe each state has its own unemployment insurance fund that pays out benefits to those who involuntarily lose their job due to downsizing/liquidation/etc. I think you get paid for 26 weeks, but you have to file a claim on a weekly basis. One of my friends received unemployment for 3 weeks...I think like $405/week?

    For welfare/food stamps, I am not sure how the program runs, but I think it is paid for by the states and the federal government.

    How do those state and federal governments get the money to pay for those programs? By taxing the citizens. You make a point about going to the local church. We also have that here, as well as private charities like the Salvation Army (a goodwill organization) and meals on wheels (to help elderly shut-ins receive meals). Unfortunately due to the heavy taxation on the American people, we are unable to provide our charities as much financial support as we'd be able to do so if we paid less taxes.

    You see, Americans in my view are the most generous people on the planet. Not only do we provide for those in our country, but our government finds it necessary to provide for other nations, too. Many of us Americans would prefer that we not go to work everyday to earn money only to be taxed, and have those dollars sent overseas in the form of foreign aid. If I wish to donate to Darfur, or the Congo, let me make that decision, as I earned the money.

    Unfortunately, living on the dole has created a sense of entitlement and security which has decreased the productivity of our workforce. I do not mean this because these people are not actively employed, but rather that those of us who work have less motivation to work hard because more of our dollars are being stolen by our government.

    I think the "have's and have-not's" is a false paradigm. Our nation is increasingly becoming divided between the producers, and the eaters. Unfortunately for all those who take advantage of the dole, at some point there will be too many mouths for us productive members of society to feed.
    "Your mother's dead, before long I'll be dead, and you...and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us..rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family." - Tywin Lannister


  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kylie View Post
    Personally, I have yet to meet a person in this country who has truly gone hungry, not by choice.

    There are so many avenues for people who have nothing to get assistance that it has been taken advantage of by people who are not really in need.

    That is why I disagree with the idea of welfare. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch, and we have lots of bad apples taking from the welfare system. This system is designed, not purposefully(I hope), to break down families. If there are two parents in the home and one is working, then you can be declined for benefits. I've had it happen myself. Social workers will as much as tell you to come back next week when your man has "left". Then you can get free money, food, healthcare, hell they'll even pay for your phone and power if you really don't have a pot to piss in.
    I think you are exactly right. I live in New York City, and I can't recall seeing an emaciated bum unless they're strung out on drugs or have some sort of disease they refuse to get treated. Most homeless are tanks around here---at least the street kind of homeless. Most live in shelters, get 3 square meals a day as long as they work toward becoming a productive member of society.
    "Your mother's dead, before long I'll be dead, and you...and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us..rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family." - Tywin Lannister


  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    I think you are exactly right. I live in New York City, and I can't recall seeing an emaciated bum unless they're strung out on drugs or have some sort of disease they refuse to get treated. Most homeless are tanks around here---at least the street kind of homeless. Most live in shelters, get 3 square meals a day as long as they work toward becoming a productive member of society.
    You say that in Ameria there are two types off Welfare. One that is paid for by the employer if certain strict conditions are meet and even then you only get the welfare payments for a few months if your lucky. If not then there are food stamps but again with strict conditions. Applying for either involves going through a plethora of bureaucracy and even then you as a citizen of the country you could be denied both.

    Why not have a federal state mandated welfare system. You lose your job for any reason you sign on and get a certain amount of benefits for a least six months paid promptly. If you haven't got a job after that your benefits get cut but you also get offered an opportunity to retrain.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    You say that in Ameria there are two types off Welfare. One that is paid for by the employer if certain strict conditions are meet and even then you only get the welfare payments for a few months if your lucky. If not then there are food stamps but again with strict conditions. Applying for either involves going through a plethora of bureaucracy and even then you as a citizen of the country you could be denied both.

    Why not have a federal state mandated welfare system. You lose your job for any reason you sign on and get a certain amount of benefits for a least six months paid promptly. If you haven't got a job after that your benefits get cut but you also get offered an opportunity to retrain.
    Every state has a system. 26 weeks is 6 months. Employers implicitly pay for the system through state unemployment insurance payments, but there is no employer-sponsored system.

    Now for your system, my question is, who pays for it?
    "Your mother's dead, before long I'll be dead, and you...and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us..rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family." - Tywin Lannister


  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    Every state has a system. 26 weeks is 6 months. Employers implicitly pay for the system through state unemployment insurance payments, but there is no employer-sponsored system.

    Now for your system, my question is, who pays for it?
    Ok I think I get it now, there is a welfare system (not food stamps) that's paid for a maximum of six months by taxing corporations at the state level, that pays $405 a week. That's unreal generous even better then what we get. If you don't qualify for this state welfare you can apply for Federal food stamps which almost anyone who applies for will get.

    Our system is paid for through tax. Income, corporation, sales and various stealth taxes. Even then it is not enough, we have to borrow a staggering 20 billion Euro this year alone to fund our social system. It's completely unsustainable, and Ireland isn't even as bad as other EU countries. All the various EU governments know it but they are to terrified by the electorate to make the necessary cuts.

  17. #15
    Eric -- You pointed out the major flaw of every entitlement system. As Baroness Thatcher once quipped about socialism, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money".

    The gap that conservative Americans and neo-liberal Americans need to bridge is that Conservatives are not cold-hearted natural-selection'ists who want people to starve, and neo-liberals don't support your entire life being paid for by productive taxpayers.

    Like Ireland, the U.S. is heavily borrowing from more productive nations. In our case, China. If China pulls the plug on our borrowing, U.S. citizens will suffer.

    In order to survive in a human sense, you must produce something to earn to be able to provide for your basic needs. No Conservative that I know has a problem with helping those in need who hit a rough-patch.

    For instance, just take this messageboard. It's full of libertarians, conservatives, republicans, classical liberals....even some leftists! Cold-hearted, brutish folk, right? If I hit a rough-patch in life to the point where I just needed help, I could post an appeal here and though I have no proof, I'd bet there would be members who lend a hand. Most folks would first go to their family, private charities before appealing to friends/kindred spirits, but the point is Americans are generous---and if someone needs a hand, there is always one available---especially if you are determined to get yourself back on your feet.
    "Your mother's dead, before long I'll be dead, and you...and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us..rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family." - Tywin Lannister


  18. #16
    Depends on a number of variables. Did they own their own business? How much had of their paycheck was taken for unemployment, or how much did their employer pay in? Did they work off the books and get paid cash under the table? Did they sign a 1099 and work as an independent?

    In California the Governor is claiming that welfare will be dissolved because of the current budget cluster$#@!.
    Last edited by Objectivist; 05-25-2009 at 03:26 PM.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    Eric -- You pointed out the major flaw of every entitlement system. As Baroness Thatcher once quipped about socialism, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money".

    The gap that conservative Americans and neo-liberal Americans need to bridge is that Conservatives are not cold-hearted natural-selection'ists who want people to starve, and neo-liberals don't support your entire life being paid for by productive taxpayers.

    Like Ireland, the U.S. is heavily borrowing from more productive nations. In our case, China. If China pulls the plug on our borrowing, U.S. citizens will suffer.

    In order to survive in a human sense, you must produce something to earn to be able to provide for your basic needs. No Conservative that I know has a problem with helping those in need who hit a rough-patch.

    For instance, just take this messageboard. It's full of libertarians, conservatives, republicans, classical liberals....even some leftists! Cold-hearted, brutish folk, right? If I hit a rough-patch in life to the point where I just needed help, I could post an appeal here and though I have no proof, I'd bet there would be members who lend a hand. Most folks would first go to their family, private charities before appealing to friends/kindred spirits, but the point is Americans are generous---and if someone needs a hand, there is always one available---especially if you are determined to get yourself back on your feet.
    But with your generous welfare system you hardly need to depend on friends. So it has nothing to do with how supposedly generous Americans are, you like Europe tax your corporations to pay for social security as you said.

    Margaret Thatcher put millions of British men on the dole by wiping out a huge chunk of Britain's manufacturing industry. If you earned an honest wage from hard labour Marget Thatcher didn't want to hear from you, she was impressed by the deregulated free for all, casino capitalism of the city and wall st that has recently exploded in all our faces.

    Thatcher was the same women who said 'There is no such thing as Society' (the British invented dance music and rave culture in response) and also said 'any adult man who has to take a bus to work can consider himself a failure in life' when she wasn't starving IRA POWS to death, some role model.
    Last edited by Eric Arthur Blair; 05-25-2009 at 03:52 PM.

  21. #18
    Sure it does Eric, because unless we have a growing, vibrant economy, the productive people cannot earn enough for government to steal and provide to the unproductive people.

    Why is America in turmoil right now? Because the economy is in the doldrums. The government is receiving nowhere near the tax receipts they need to fund the entitlement system, so they borrow.

    This system is unsustainable. 6 months is but a fraction of a lifetime. Frankly, I take a bit of offense to your "supposedly generous Americans are" comment, because on a per-capita basis we are the most generous nation on the entire planet.

    COUNTRY................PER CAP. GIVING

    Spain..........................122
    Belgium........................120
    U.K............................117
    Netherlands....................110
    Ireland........................100
    France..........................74
    Finland.........................70
    Austria.........................50
    Germany.........................39
    Hungary.........................32
    Slovakia........................25
    Czech Republic..................25
    Romania..........................5

    U.S............................278
    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=236671
    "Your mother's dead, before long I'll be dead, and you...and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us..rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family." - Tywin Lannister


  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    This is what I really don't get, you Americans pay more taxes then I do. My income tax is around 20% and I pay a small sales tax on goods (I smoke and drink and sales tax on those thing are very high) but for all that I get free School, subsidized health care, and I got to go to college for free.

    I get very generous welfare if I lose my job (around $200 a week in cash) and lots of other goodies as-well, like subsidized transport etc. In America you pay massive taxes and get practically nothing in return and if worse comes to worse you could be even left to starve to death.
    You forget our State uses the stolen tax money primarily for healthcare, Social Security, and foreign imperialism, something your State isn't even engaged in.

    Your State uses the stolen tax money primarily for ways to bribe you into submission, as you've already described for us.
    Force always attracts men of low morality. – Albert Einstein

    Government is essentially the negation of liberty. – Ludwig von Mises

    The great non-sequitur committed by defenders of the State, including classical Aristotelian and Thomist philosophers, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State. - Murray N. Rothbard

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    You say that in Ameria there are two types off Welfare. One that is paid for by the employer if certain strict conditions are meet and even then you only get the welfare payments for a few months if your lucky. If not then there are food stamps but again with strict conditions. Applying for either involves going through a plethora of bureaucracy and even then you as a citizen of the country you could be denied both.

    Why not have a federal state mandated welfare system. You lose your job for any reason you sign on and get a certain amount of benefits for a least six months paid promptly. If you haven't got a job after that your benefits get cut but you also get offered an opportunity to retrain.


    There are many different types of welfare in our states. And each state is supposed to support itself in these respects.

    Un-employment is money you will get for losing your job if you were fired without reason or your company shuts down. This is paid in by the corporation you worked for, and is available in the state you work and live in. This is only available to people who have been working and have recently lost their jobs. A 2-3 week waiting period, along with bi-monthly call in's, is necessary to keep this benefit going for up to 26 weeks. Extensions can be done if you do not find work in that time.

    What we call welfare is Government: Housing, feeding, healthcare.
    Many get these benefits because they fit the criteria of not having a job, making babies when they have no way to pay for them, earner in family dies,disabilities, etc.

    A portion of people that are on the welfare are not poor. Not by any other country's standard, at least. They work the system to get what they want, because they don't earn it. And WON'T earn it. And this hurts the people that really need the help, because they won't get it.

    Along with the welfare, you have WIC- which is a program that gives dairy products and cereals to families that are low-income that have children. This is on top of the food stamps that they get.

    How many people live in your country, Eric?



    In our country, we have in an average month in 2007, 26.5 million people on food stamps.

    That's every month of the year.

    Total population of US: 304,059,724 - Jul 2008


    My state will spend $18,205.9 million dollars this year to support people who cannot support themselves.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    Sure it does Eric, because unless we have a growing, vibrant economy, the productive people cannot earn enough for government to steal and provide to the unproductive people.

    Why is America in turmoil right now? Because the economy is in the doldrums. The government is receiving nowhere near the tax receipts they need to fund the entitlement system, so they borrow.

    This system is unsustainable. 6 months is but a fraction of a lifetime. Frankly, I take a bit of offense to your "supposedly generous Americans are" comment, because on a per-capita basis we are the most generous nation on the entire planet.



    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=236671

    Welfare is not an entitlement or 'Stealing' but a basic human right. One that the American constitution guarantees through the 'right to life' and to 'promote the general welfare'

    Yes its great that Americans being more religious then Europeans donate more money to foreign charities then Europe. We will see how those figure add up when the US becomes more secular like Europe.

    Europeans give less money to charity than Americans not because they refuse to put their money where their social-justice mouths are but because they’ve already done so in the fields of health care and education to an extent as yet undreamed of by the United States.
    Last edited by Eric Arthur Blair; 05-25-2009 at 04:40 PM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    Welfare is not an entitlement or 'Stealing' but a basic human right. One that the American constitution guarantees through the 'right to life' and to 'promote the general welfare'
    Then why did these welfare programs only show up in the 20th Century?

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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    Welfare is not an entitlement or 'Stealing' but a basic human right. One that the American constitution guarantees through the 'right to life' and to 'promote the general welfare'
    What does this even mean? You're talking about a positive right which is by definition an entitlement. The Welfare State detrimental to the 'general welfare' that the framers of the Constitution have envisioned. The Constitution doesn't guarantee 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    Yes its great that Americans being more religious then Europeans donate more money to foreign charities then Europe. We will see how those figure add up when the US becomes more secular like Europe.

    Europeans give less money to charity than Americans not because they refuse to put their money where their social-justice mouths are but because they’ve already done so in the fields of health care and education to an extent as yet undreamed of by the United States.
    American health care and education is subsidized even more than European countries so I don't know what you're getting at. Theft is not charity.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    Margaret Thatcher put millions of British men on the dole by wiping out a huge chunk of Britain's manufacturing industry. If you earned an honest wage from hard labour Marget Thatcher didn't want to hear from you, she was impressed by the deregulated free for all, casino capitalism of the city and wall st that has recently exploded in all our faces.

    Thatcher was the same women who said 'There is no such thing as Society' (the British invented dance music and rave culture in response) and also said 'any adult man who has to take a bus to work can consider himself a failure in life' when she wasn't starving IRA POWS to death, some role model.
    Not a role model, but even evil people can produce a good quote or two.



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  29. #25
    OK I don't what to say, sorry I suppose. It turns out I was completely wrong. Americans have a very charitable and humane welfare programme mandated by state laws, you donate more to charity and also subsidise health care and education more so then we do.

    If I ever find myself unemployed, about to have a heart attack and with a sudden desire to donate to product red while sending my kids to college I'm just as well covered in the US as in Europe. Every media outlet in the world has lied to me, apologies.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    OK I don't what to say, sorry I suppose. It turns out I was completely wrong. Americans have a very charitable and humane welfare programme mandated by state laws, you donate more to charity and also subsidise health care and education more so then we do.

    If I ever find myself unemployed, about to have a heart attack and with a sudden desire to donate to product red while sending my kids to college I'm just as well covered in the US as in Europe. Every media outlet in the world has lied to me, apologies.
    Eric---I hope you were not upset at the responses on this thread, as I thought they were well-reasoned and open.

    Americans who believe in the original American ideas like freedom and responsibility are always open to friendly debate. I've enjoyed our dialogue here, and I hope you've enjoyed our thoughtful responses.

    As I am sure you understand, our relatively brand new nation, only about 222 years old now, was founded on the basis of individual liberty, freedom and no taxation. We learned that a TINY bit of taxation was needed for items outlined in the constitution, but that we wished to take care of Americans on our own, not with the American Government directing our charity.

    Eric, I am happy to see someone open to varying ideas, but I detect a pretext of "Statism protects the needy" in your thinking. Please consider Benjamin Franklin's idea that making those impoverished "uncomfortable in their poverty" the norm, instead of making them think they're entitled, the norm. The only way you let people break free of poverty, is to make them understand that it is unacceptable.

    Freedom, in the end, is the answer.
    "Your mother's dead, before long I'll be dead, and you...and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us..rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family." - Tywin Lannister


  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    Welfare is not an entitlement or 'Stealing' but a basic human right. One that the American constitution guarantees through the 'right to life' and to 'promote the general welfare'
    Nope, there is no such thing as a right that puts a positive obligation onto another. That would be denying the others person`s rights, real rights.

    US constitution is a document of negative liberty, right to life does not refer to anything of the sort.

  32. #28
    Arklatex
    Member

    Only social welfare I recieved when I quite my job was a shot of Maker's mark from a friend.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    Eric---I hope you were not upset at the responses on this thread, as I thought they were well-reasoned and open.

    Americans who believe in the original American ideas like freedom and responsibility are always open to friendly debate. I've enjoyed our dialogue here, and I hope you've enjoyed our thoughtful responses.

    As I am sure you understand, our relatively brand new nation, only about 222 years old now, was founded on the basis of individual liberty, freedom and no taxation. We learned that a TINY bit of taxation was needed for items outlined in the constitution, but that we wished to take care of Americans on our own, not with the American Government directing our charity.

    Eric, I am happy to see someone open to varying ideas, but I detect a pretext of "Statism protects the needy" in your thinking. Please consider Benjamin Franklin's idea that making those impoverished "uncomfortable in their poverty" the norm, instead of making them think they're entitled, the norm. The only way you let people break free of poverty, is to make them understand that it is unacceptable.

    Freedom, in the end, is the answer.

    I'm so glad you wrote this.

    It's exactly what I was thinking. In fact, I've quoted you to other people, if you don't mind.

    "The only way you let people break free of poverty, is to make them understand that it is unacceptable."

    Haven't seen a better quote in a while.


  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post

    Why not have a federal state mandated welfare system. You lose your job for any reason you sign on and get a certain amount of benefits for a least six months paid promptly. If you haven't got a job after that your benefits get cut but you also get offered an opportunity to retrain.
    Because statistically speaking, people are far more likely to find a job immediately before their benefits run out.

    When you subsidize unemployment, you get more unemployment.

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