View Poll Results: How do you feel about using torture on terrorists to get info on an immenent attack?

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  • I agree with RP's position. No torture at all. Period.

    58 89.23%
  • If the current US law is changed to allow torture of terrorists then I'd be okay with it.

    1 1.54%
  • Torture here. Torture Now. Pay less.

    3 4.62%
  • It depends on what your definition of torture is

    3 4.62%
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Thread: Obama and torture. RPF Opinion?

  1. #1

    Question Obama and torture. RPF Opinion?

    First let me say I'm probably in the minority and currently disagree with Ron Paul's position. I'm still on the fence though.

    My understanding is that Ron Paul doesn't believe we have a right to torture Al Qaeda members even if they have information that might prevent an attack. I'm with him only in this respect: I believe it's currently illegal under U.S. law to do so. If the U.S. made a law that said it was okay I would be behind the actual use of torture against an enemy to prevent an imminent attack.

    The current game of what torture is and is not is dishonest imo. It's a game of what "is" is. If you're using force to get information I think it's a form of torture and only a matter of degree. If you don't want to torture then they should be treated like criminals and bribed with lighter sentences etc.

    If there's a middle ground from a libertarian POV...feel free to point it out. Your thoughts RPFers?
    Last edited by Chieftain1776; 04-22-2009 at 08:24 PM.
    "We took it in the shorts with Bush-Cheney, the Iraq War, and by sacrificing fiscal responsibility to hold power.”
    ~John Boehner, GOP Minority Leader

    "Take out all this movement stuff. There is no movement.... Look, I know this probably sounds arrogant to say but I redefined the Republican Party." ~President George W. Bush to speechwriter



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  3. #2
    Here's my take.

    Who gets to define "enemy" in the eyes of the law? If the answer is "the government", then the answer will always be no, since sooner or later, the law is going to be misused in horrendous ways.

    Remember that the Military Commissions Act coupled with the PATRIOT Act essentially gave the CIA carte blanche to do this to American citizens without fear of reprisal or prosecution as well, based only on the President designating them as an "enemy combatant".

    Besides, torture should not be a legal issue; its a moral issue. What if the government "legalised" chemical castration of an "enemy"? Or rape? How about torturing the children of "enemies" in order to extort information from them? In this case, "by any means necessary" is equal to "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

    Better for us not to interfere or intervene in those regions of the world in the first place than put the nation in a position to stain itself with the taint of this kind of evil.
    Last edited by silverhawks; 04-22-2009 at 08:34 PM.
    People should not be afraid of their governments -
    governments should be afraid of their people.

    In times of change, the Patriot is a scarce man; brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Audemus Jura Nostra Defendere: We Dare To Defend Our Rights!

  4. #3
    Well domestically we have a criminal justice system that deals with these issues. I'm mainly focusing on terrorists caught on the battlefield. For a traditional enemies the U.S. would continue to be bound by its law which it agreed to conform to the Geneva Conventions (definitely not the other way around!).

    Certainly I agree that we'd probably never have this problem (or to a much much lesser extent) if the US Gov didn't "go abroad of monsters to destroy". I think we bring our troops home and then put a time line of shutting down the CIA completely.
    "We took it in the shorts with Bush-Cheney, the Iraq War, and by sacrificing fiscal responsibility to hold power.”
    ~John Boehner, GOP Minority Leader

    "Take out all this movement stuff. There is no movement.... Look, I know this probably sounds arrogant to say but I redefined the Republican Party." ~President George W. Bush to speechwriter

  5. #4
    The ticking time bomb scenario (24) is a false scenario. No need to discuss it.

    You would have to torture everyone, as you don't know if there even is a ticking time bomb in the first place. Omnipotent knowledge of all the characters and plot-lines is a fiction that only occurs in entertainment (books, movies, TV).

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Chieftain1776 View Post
    First let me say I'm probably in the minority and currently disagree with Ron Paul's position. I'm still on the fence though.

    My understanding is that Ron Paul doesn't believe we have a right to torture Al Qaeda members even if they have information that might prevent an attack. I'm with him only in this respect: I believe it's currently illegal under U.S. law to do so. If the U.S. made a law that said it was okay I would be behind the actual use of torture against an enemy to prevent an imminent attack.

    ?
    You don't understand the reason it is illegal?

    The actual use of torture against an enemy to prevent an imminent attack can be you. Who defines the enemy, who defines an imminent attack? Jack Bauer? The real world is not 24.

    Lets say there is a terrorist attack like 911, and the accused was a Ron Paul supporter. The government then says it has information that would prevent another attack that is "imminent". Replace Al Quada with Ron Paul supporters. You get the picture?

    We are already on watchlists for our views, so this scenario is not unrealistic.

    There can be no justification for torture.
    "It is our true policy to steer clear of entangling alliances with any portion of the foreign world. "
    George Washington

    "Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations"
    James Madison

  7. #6

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by paulitics View Post
    You don't understand the reason it is illegal?

    The actual use of torture against an enemy to prevent an imminent attack can be you. Who defines the enemy, who defines an imminent attack? Jack Bauer? The real world is not 24.

    Lets say there is a terrorist attack like 911, and the accused was a Ron Paul supporter. The government then says it has information that would prevent another attack that is "imminent". Replace Al Quada with Ron Paul supporters. You get the picture?

    We are already on watchlists for our views, so this scenario is not unrealistic.

    There can be no justification for torture.
    There is, I believe, already a process in place for domestic terrorists, ie Timothy McViegh that is different from foreign enemies. As for an imminent attack I guess I wait for the report that Cheney requested about LAX. I'm sure there will be a bias for the "necessity" of government action but it should be informative to a certain degree. Also I guess, to remain consistent, I should support gathering info via torture regardless of the time frame.
    "We took it in the shorts with Bush-Cheney, the Iraq War, and by sacrificing fiscal responsibility to hold power.”
    ~John Boehner, GOP Minority Leader

    "Take out all this movement stuff. There is no movement.... Look, I know this probably sounds arrogant to say but I redefined the Republican Party." ~President George W. Bush to speechwriter

  9. #8
    How about we just stay out of people's business, stop occupying/preemptivly bombing other countries? Then there won't be any people that we need to torture that are pissed off at our policies.

    This is just a War on Angry People that are fed up with our bull$#@!. It's not a War on Terror.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshLowry View Post
    How about we just stay out of people's business, stop occupying/preemptivly bombing other countries? Then there won't be any people that we need to torture that are pissed off at our policies.

    This is just a War on Angry People that are fed up with our bull$#@!. It's not a War on Terror.
    As I said above I agree. The problem is this: If I killed a family member of yours you wouldn't have the right to execute my entire family for revenge. That's what Al Qaeda is trying to do on a larger scale.

    A bit off-topic but I just re-read a John Quincy Adams speech. Here's a really short excerpt but the whole speech is awesome:

    But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
    She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
    She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.


    http://www.fff.org/comment/AdamsPolicy.asp
    "We took it in the shorts with Bush-Cheney, the Iraq War, and by sacrificing fiscal responsibility to hold power.”
    ~John Boehner, GOP Minority Leader

    "Take out all this movement stuff. There is no movement.... Look, I know this probably sounds arrogant to say but I redefined the Republican Party." ~President George W. Bush to speechwriter

  12. #10
    Torture is great for getting inaccurate information. If you want to use torture to get a bunch of false leads to waste your time and resources, that's great. I would rather use the currently legal methods which seem to work just fine. The majority of the time, it is not difficult to sniff out when someone is lying. Now imagine someone bloodied, soaking wet, gasping for breath, grimacing in pain, on the verge of passing out, etc. Can you tell if he is lying? The normal signals that someone is lying may not be present if he is under duress.

    In my opinion, ANY nation that uses or condones torture is a terrorist state.
    "This here's Miss Bonnie Parker. I'm Clyde Barrow. We rob banks."

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Chieftain1776 View Post
    There is, I believe, already a process in place for domestic terrorists, ie Timothy McViegh that is different from foreign enemies. As for an imminent attack I guess I wait for the report that Cheney requested about LAX. I'm sure there will be a bias for the "necessity" of government action but it should be informative to a certain degree. Also I guess, to remain consistent, I should support gathering info via torture regardless of the time frame.
    Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007

    “(2) Violent radicalization.—The term ‘violent radicalization’ means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change.

    “(3) Homegrown terrorism.—The term ‘homegrown terrorism’ means the use, planned use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual born, raised, or based and operating primarily within the United States or any possession of the United States to intimidate or coerce the United States government, the civilian population of the United States, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

    “(4) Ideologically based violence.—The term ‘ideologically based violence’ means the use, planned use, or threatened use of force or violence by a group or individual to promote the group or individual’s political, religious, or social beliefs.
    “The Congress finds the following:

    “(1) The development and implementation of methods and processes that can be utilized to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence in the United States is critical to combating domestic terrorism.

    “(2) The promotion of violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence exists in the United States and poses a threat to homeland security.

    “(3) The Internet has aided in facilitating violent radicalization, ideologically based violence, and the homegrown terrorism process in the United States by providing access to broad and constant streams of terrorist-related propaganda to United States citizens.

    “(4) While the United States must continue its vigilant efforts to combat international terrorism, it must also strengthen efforts to combat the threat posed by homegrown terrorists based and operating within the United States.

    “(5) Understanding the motivational factors that lead to violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence is a vital step toward eradicating these threats in the United States.

    “(6) Preventing the potential rise of self radicalized, unaffiliated terrorists domestically cannot be easily accomplished solely through traditional Federal intelligence or law enforcement efforts, and can benefit from the incorporation of State and local efforts.

    “(7) Individuals prone to violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence span all races, ethnicities, and religious beliefs, and individuals should not be targeted based solely on race, ethnicity, or religion.

    “(8) Any measure taken to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism in the United States should not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents.

    “(9) Certain governments, including the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia have significant experience with homegrown terrorism and the United States can benefit from lessons learned by those nations.
    Now, while this states that "any measure" taken to "prevent violent radicalization" should not "violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents", I would argue that the adjusted Military Commissions Act coupled with the PATRIOT Acts could strip you of your citizenship or legal residency, reclassifying you as a "terrorist suspect" (used to be "enemy combatant"), outside of the boundaries of constitutional protection.

    Going to take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that this bill is going to be written into law double-time when riots or tax revolts start to occur; or legislation very similar to it.

    I also notice:
    Preventing the potential rise of self radicalized, unaffiliated terrorists domestically cannot be easily accomplished solely through traditional Federal intelligence or law enforcement efforts, and can benefit from the incorporation of State and local efforts.
    Fusion centers, anyone?
    Last edited by silverhawks; 04-22-2009 at 09:56 PM.
    People should not be afraid of their governments -
    governments should be afraid of their people.

    In times of change, the Patriot is a scarce man; brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Audemus Jura Nostra Defendere: We Dare To Defend Our Rights!

  14. #12
    It's like asking how do you feel about using terrorism against innocent people for some "moral cause" like spreading freedom?

    Torture is a moral and legal crime, good signs are that Bush's men could be prosecuted now:

    Top US officials shaped 'torture' policy: report
    22 hours ago

    WASHINGTON (AFP) — Top US officials, not a "few bad apples" of low rank, were behind harsh military interrogation tactics that spread from Guantanamo Bay to Afghanistan to Iraq, a new Senate report said.

  15. #13

    critical question....

    If we had detained a suspected terrorist whos group was holding your family captive and were going to KILL them in 24 hours, would you advocate torture to get the information out of them???


    think about the question before you answer it
    just me

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by trey4sports View Post
    If we had detained a suspected terrorist whos group was holding your family captive and were going to KILL them in 24 hours, would you advocate torture to get the information out of them???


    think about the question before you answer it
    If torture was used, would you trust the information obtained?
    "This here's Miss Bonnie Parker. I'm Clyde Barrow. We rob banks."

  17. #15
    Scenario.

    Hacim noslen, noted good looking terrorist, has been captured by the federal government. There have been a series of threats against the country. Hacim was captured when he overslept and didn't get to the check in point on time. Authorities found a note on him which says, "Hey Hacim, I'm super sorry we had to take off but we have to go bomb that place tonight. Please don't tell the white devil what we are up to, and seriously don't tell them how afraid of water you are or they will pull a waterboard on ya. AllahAkbar, etc- love, the other terrorists."

    Situation A: Authorities waterboard hacim to get the intel, get a parade.
    Situation B: No torture, bomb goes off. Thousands dead, Hacim goes to jail, maybe.

    I suggest for you, situation C: Failure has already occurred- dereliction of duty. The fact that there is a ticking bomb somewhere means that intelligence has failed. Intelligence chiefs lose their jobs, but face criminal negligence charges for the lives lost in the terrorist attack. If they prevent the attack via torture, they face the lesser charge of criminal assault.

    You see kids, harming another human being is a crime against humanity- but in the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY chance that there is a ticking timebomb, innocent people should not have to pay the ultimate sacrafice for the poor work of the intelligence community and the malicious plots of terrorists.

    If torture is likely to get the information, which is debatable, the authorities could break the law to get the information and then face the consequences even if it turns out to be true.


    I know its a messy solution, but is there a solution that doesn't involve turning hundreds of people into martyrs to principle on one hand, or give the government carte blanche authority to torture people on the other?
    "Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the grace of the Eternal God, will rout you out."- Andrew Jackson (The Guy on the 20)

    www.micahnelson.com

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    If torture was used, would you trust the information obtained?

    maybe, maybe not. with 24 hours ticking down adleast id have some info to go on
    just me



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by trey4sports View Post
    If we had detained a suspected terrorist whos group was holding your family captive and were going to KILL them in 24 hours, would you advocate torture to get the information out of them???

    think about the question before you answer it
    Think about the question before you ask it.

    Why has the terrorist come to America to kidnap my family?

    Is it due to America throwing its weight around in the Middle East, for example?

    Could this entire scenario be avoided through the use of non-interventionist foreign policy?

    It's a matter of cause and effect.
    People should not be afraid of their governments -
    governments should be afraid of their people.

    In times of change, the Patriot is a scarce man; brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Audemus Jura Nostra Defendere: We Dare To Defend Our Rights!

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhawks View Post
    Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007

    Now, while this states that "any measure" taken to "prevent violent radicalization" should not "violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents", I would argue that the adjusted Military Commissions Act coupled with the PATRIOT Acts could strip you of your citizenship or legal residency, reclassifying you as a "terrorist suspect" (used to be "enemy combatant"), outside of the boundaries of constitutional protection.

    Going to take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that this bill is going to be written into law double-time when riots or tax revolts start to occur; or legislation very similar to it.

    I also notice:


    Fusion centers, anyone?
    I believe the PATRIOT ACT is unconstitutional itself. Again there's always the threat that government will use its monopoly of force to take our liberty. That's part why in the end I'm more of an anarcho-capitalist.

    Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff
    If torture was used, would you trust the information obtained?
    Yeah I know it's debatable. On Hardball there was a good interview of Robert Baer on this. I want it used only as a last resort and not at all if its proven to be ineffective. The threat, like Ron Paul's argument for secession, may be enough to get the info. I think it should be on the table.
    Last edited by Chieftain1776; 04-22-2009 at 10:16 PM.
    "We took it in the shorts with Bush-Cheney, the Iraq War, and by sacrificing fiscal responsibility to hold power.”
    ~John Boehner, GOP Minority Leader

    "Take out all this movement stuff. There is no movement.... Look, I know this probably sounds arrogant to say but I redefined the Republican Party." ~President George W. Bush to speechwriter

  22. #19
    Torture is unreliable. People will say anything just to make it stop.
    A name is a designation given to property by the owner thereof, as I don't have an owner I can't possibly have a name.
    Do you have a name and if so, who is your owner?


    Jesse Ventura Forums

  23. #20
    I'm putting myself on record as saying that I would much rather see uber-restrictive regulations about "enhanced interrogation techniques" that prevent all sorts of things, even if they would have valuable security results, than for there to be even ONE person who undergoes more harm at the hands of government forces than absolutely necessary or humanly excusable.

    Sure if you torture someone who's actually guilty for a long time you may end up getting information that may prevent a terrorist attack that might happen, but I guarantee you that they torture far more people than necessary, the people who could arguably "deserve" to be tortured are tortured to a greater extent than necessary, and, lastly...

    TORTURE IS JUST PLAN WRONG ANYWAYS. Human dignity always outweighs government security, even if the human in question is despicable. Let a judge and jury and fair trial be the deciders in whether or not a person deserves any kind of punishment, and then make the punishment humane.

    Torture is about sacrificing human dignity in the name of security, and any country, even America, that sacrifices human dignity in the interests of security doesn't deserve the security it's protecting. As Isaac said,
    ANY nation that uses or condones torture is a terrorist state.
    Last edited by thasre; 04-22-2009 at 10:54 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by trey4sports View Post
    If we had detained a suspected terrorist whos group was holding your family captive and were going to KILL them in 24 hours, would you advocate torture to get the information out of them???


    think about the question before you answer it
    That's like asking, "If there were a really hot, totally naked woman passed out on your bed and you knew you could have sex with her, without her or anyone else ever knowing, would you go ahead and do it?" Hopefully the appropriate answer is obvious.

    The fact is, in a situation in which I felt the emotional turmoil of knowing my family might soon die and there was someone that could be tortured into possibly revealing information about how to save them, I would probably want the person to be tortured. But it isn't prudent, wise, legal, ethical, moral, honorable, or what-have-you, to make decisions like that based on rash emotions and the prospect of immediate gain. My emotional state and the prospects of saving my family wouldn't make torture any more MORAL, only more APPEALING.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by thasre View Post
    ...would you go ahead and do it?" Hopefully the appropriate answer is obvious.
    I think the analogy way is off. The victim in your scenario is just that- a victim. We're talking about a proven terrorist that is withholding information that will result in acts of mass murder. He's not just a normal person with no ties.

    I'm not even arguing terrorists should be tortured for any reason. If there's no information to be gleaned he shouldn't be harmed. That is until the there is some process ie a military tribunal that passes out a final sentence. I don't know the specifics but I think the SCOTUS made some ruling on the GITMO detainees forcing them into regular courts I believe.
    "We took it in the shorts with Bush-Cheney, the Iraq War, and by sacrificing fiscal responsibility to hold power.”
    ~John Boehner, GOP Minority Leader

    "Take out all this movement stuff. There is no movement.... Look, I know this probably sounds arrogant to say but I redefined the Republican Party." ~President George W. Bush to speechwriter

  26. #23

    Where I Would Disagree With Congressman Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by micahnelson View Post
    Scenario.

    Hacim noslen, noted good looking terrorist, has been captured by the federal government. There have been a series of threats against the country. Hacim was captured when he overslept and didn't get to the check in point on time. Authorities found a note on him which says, "Hey Hacim, I'm super sorry we had to take off but we have to go bomb that place tonight. Please don't tell the white devil what we are up to, and seriously don't tell them how afraid of water you are or they will pull a waterboard on ya. AllahAkbar, etc- love, the other terrorists."

    Situation A: Authorities waterboard hacim to get the intel, get a parade.
    Situation B: No torture, bomb goes off. Thousands dead, Hacim goes to jail, maybe.

    I suggest for you, situation C: Failure has already occurred- dereliction of duty. The fact that there is a ticking bomb somewhere means that intelligence has failed. Intelligence chiefs lose their jobs, but face criminal negligence charges for the lives lost in the terrorist attack. If they prevent the attack via torture, they face the lesser charge of criminal assault.

    You see kids, harming another human being is a crime against humanity- but in the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY chance that there is a ticking timebomb, innocent people should not have to pay the ultimate sacrafice for the poor work of the intelligence community and the malicious plots of terrorists.

    If torture is likely to get the information, which is debatable, the authorities could break the law to get the information and then face the consequences even if it turns out to be true.


    I know its a messy solution, but is there a solution that doesn't involve turning hundreds of people into martyrs to principle on one hand, or give the government carte blanche authority to torture people on the other?
    My sentiments are similar to those in the post above. In principle, I would say I'm against torture. From a personal stance, it is my belief no man was ever tortured as worse as Jesus Christ was during His passion. The thought of what He had to go through really brings tears to my eyes sometimes.

    Having said that, I do believe there are exceptions to allowing torture because we live in an imperfect, sinful world where evil men are ever seeking to bring terror and misery to the masses for their own personal gain. In extreme cases where there is to be an imminent threat to innocent lives, I would say torture should be used as a last resort, as unpleasant as it would seem to me.
    "Diverse weights are an abomination unto the LORD, and a false balance is not good." - Proverbs 20:23

    "Lowering interest rates punishes people for saving, thus encouraging consumers and businesses to spend every penny they make...The Federal Reserve’s inflationary policies harm the average American by eroding the dollar’s purchasing power." - Dr. Ron Paul

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    My sentiments are similar to those in the post above. In principle, I would say I'm against torture. From a personal stance, it is my belief no man was ever tortured as worse as Jesus Christ was during His passion. The thought of what He had to go through really brings tears to my eyes sometimes.

    Having said that, I do believe there are exceptions to allowing torture because we live in an imperfect, sinful world where evil men are ever seeking to bring terror and misery to the masses for their own personal gain. In extreme cases where there is to be an imminent threat to innocent lives, I would say torture should be used as a last resort, as unpleasant as it would seem to me.
    You'll never put that jinn back in the bottle once released.

    You'd open the door to the savagery that made Christ's suffering not only possible, but perfectly legal.

    I can't help but think that's a sin on the face of it.
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler



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  29. #25
    Why is there a ticking Bomb?

    Because 50 yeah ago someone thought it would be a good idea to torture someone to stop the 'commies'.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Why is there a ticking Bomb?

    Because 50 yeah ago someone thought it would be a good idea to torture someone to stop the 'commies'.
    Torture goes back far longer then the Red Scare.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by micahnelson View Post
    Scenario.

    Hacim noslen, noted good looking terrorist, has been captured by the federal government. There have been a series of threats against the country. Hacim was captured when he overslept and didn't get to the check in point on time. Authorities found a note on him which says, "Hey Hacim, I'm super sorry we had to take off but we have to go bomb that place tonight. Please don't tell the white devil what we are up to, and seriously don't tell them how afraid of water you are or they will pull a waterboard on ya. AllahAkbar, etc- love, the other terrorists."

    Situation A: Authorities waterboard hacim to get the intel, get a parade.
    Situation B: No torture, bomb goes off. Thousands dead, Hacim goes to jail, maybe.

    I suggest for you, situation C: Failure has already occurred- dereliction of duty. The fact that there is a ticking bomb somewhere means that intelligence has failed. Intelligence chiefs lose their jobs, but face criminal negligence charges for the lives lost in the terrorist attack. If they prevent the attack via torture, they face the lesser charge of criminal assault.

    You see kids, harming another human being is a crime against humanity- but in the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY chance that there is a ticking timebomb, innocent people should not have to pay the ultimate sacrafice for the poor work of the intelligence community and the malicious plots of terrorists.

    If torture is likely to get the information, which is debatable, the authorities could break the law to get the information and then face the consequences even if it turns out to be true.


    I know its a messy solution, but is there a solution that doesn't involve turning hundreds of people into martyrs to principle on one hand, or give the government carte blanche authority to torture people on the other?
    My Neo-Austrian socioeconomic philosophy calls for the extermination of all people so that we will avoid problems such as this. It is perfect.

    It's called kludgism for obvious reasons.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Vessol View Post
    Torture goes back far longer then the Red Scare.
    Yeah, but I was just tracing the current bomb that is supposedly going to kill hundreds of American School children for no reason.

    The mentality is always that "Bombs are just there. They just show up".
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Yeah, but I was just tracing the current bomb that is supposedly going to kill hundreds of American School children for no reason.

    The mentality is always that "Bombs are just there. They just show up".
    I'm not an advocate of torture or imperialism, nor the Truman doctrine. But it's just plain ignorant to say that there is no one who would take the chance to kill a bunch of Americans if they had a chance.

  34. #30
    ...
    Last edited by KoldKut; 05-14-2009 at 10:24 PM.

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