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Thread: Allodial title

  1. #1

    Allodial title

    Help me out here. Did the Treaty of Paris grant allodial title to the United States, or to the 13 states. If the latter, who held title to non-state lands east of the mississippi river? The Articles of Confederation doesn't reference allodial title but merely that the states have "sovereignty." At any rate, the revolutionary war was still underway when the articles were ratified. The US Constitution is also silent on the issue. I'm interested in the early history of real estate law.

    A dim light is shed on this subject in the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. It provides for freehold estates for public officials and further states that no taxes on property shall exist in the United States (Article 4). This would imply that private title is held in allodia, although it doesn't explicitly say that...



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  3. #2
    From MN Constitution:

    Sec. 15. LANDS ALLODIAL; VOID AGRICULTURAL LEASES. All lands within the state are allodial and feudal tenures of every description with all their incidents are prohibited. Leases and grants of agricultural lands for a longer period than 21 years reserving rent or service of any kind shall be void.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people too.



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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    From MN Constitution:

    Sec. 15. LANDS ALLODIAL; VOID AGRICULTURAL LEASES. All lands within the state are allodial and feudal tenures of every description with all their incidents are prohibited. Leases and grants of agricultural lands for a longer period than 21 years reserving rent or service of any kind shall be void.

    Excellent! Thanks much for that information.

  5. #4
    well how can you have property tax and allodial title?
    The ultimate minority is the individual. Protect the individual from Democracy and you will protect all groups of individuals
    Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas Jefferson
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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kotin View Post
    well how can you have property tax and allodial title?
    You can't. Plus, if the property is free from mortgages, insurance or liens, you can't apply building codes or any other restrictions. Allodial rights are absolute, permanent and immutable.

  7. #6
    Me thinks Old Ducker is on to something!
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Me thinks Old Ducker is on to something!
    Muhahahaha!

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ducker View Post
    Muhahahaha!
    Hehe. Keep working this angle. It is definitely worth exploring. I'm learning from you. I love this!
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  11. #9

    Hmmm

    Find a court that will enforce it and THEN you are onto something. Otherwise, you are going to be forced to obey the law of the jurisdiction including taxes and zoning regardless of what common law you cite and what special title you have. Sorry. There just aren't any legal loopholes to extract us from tyranny.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Find a court that will enforce it and THEN you are onto something. Otherwise, you are going to be forced to obey the law of the jurisdiction including taxes and zoning regardless of what common law you cite and what special title you have. Sorry. There just aren't any legal loopholes to extract us from tyranny.
    Of course you are correct. However the law does state that if any existing law is unconstitutional, no matter how old since it's inception, it is void. It never existed.
    Under stare decisis, if ANY allodial cases reference the US as having alloidial title and that can be proven wrong, then this case can be challenged.

    Furthermore, we all know we are headed to revolution of some form. If we are going avoid repeating the mistakes of the past, it is critical that we understand what our actual rights are and how they became corrupted.

    So....there are two useful outcomes. The first provides for the mechanism that the state must prove the legitimacy of it's powers, the second is restorative in nature....

  13. #11
    Nevada and Texas are the only ones that allow allodial titles and then they are tough to obtain. You have to pay taxes in advance based on projected tax revenues. You also have to own the land free and clear of mortgages and liens. I don't think it's transferable to family. They will have to do the same with the taxes.

  14. #12
    I was in a local group that had some exploring allodial titles.

    One member was working with a law firm. He was able to stop the town from taking a lady's property with eminent domain.

    How he explained it. You need to get the original Land Patent. I got one for my property when I lived in WI from the Bureau of Land Management.

    Then you have to "bring it forward." If I recall correctly, you need to make sure there are no claims on the land and it wasn't sold in the past from a tax lien. Then file your patent.

    You now own the land allodially.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people too.



    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  15. #13
    Michael Badnarik discusses this in his Constitution Class online and also in his book, Good to be King.

    But the Treaty of Paris said the following:
    His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.

    SOURCE:
    http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/paris.shtml




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  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    How he explained it. You need to get the original Land Patent. I got one for my property when I lived in WI from the Bureau of Land Management.

    Then you have to "bring it forward." If I recall correctly, you need to make sure there are no claims on the land and it wasn't sold in the past from a tax lien. Then file your patent.

    You now own the land allodially.
    I think it depends on the State of which you live.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    I think it depends on the State of which you live.
    Yes, the original ones (13 colonies) I believe were a bit different. The Midwest is all pretty similar with Land Patents from U.S. Presidents, mine was from James K. Polk. Typically 40 acres a piece when the Patents were made.
    Last edited by Danke; 04-21-2009 at 04:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people too.



    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Yes, the original ones (13 colonies) I believe were a bit different. The Midwest is all pretty similar with Land Patents from U.S. Presidents. Typically 40 acres a piece when the Patents were made.
    I think it would also be different in areas that were purchased by the US government from foreign governments, specifically the Louisiana Purchase and Alaska, and those territories acquired by war (California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas). I don't know what documents were prepared when the Republic of Texas joined the Union but allodial rights must be addressed in it somewhere.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ducker View Post
    I think it would also be different in areas that were purchased by the US government from foreign governments, specifically the Louisiana Purchase and Alaska, and those territories acquired by war (California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas). I don't know what documents were prepared when the Republic of Texas joined the Union but allodial rights must be addressed in it somewhere.
    Yes, I have heard of some Patents in the Southwest going all the way back to Spain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people too.



    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Yes, I have heard of some Patents in the Southwest going all the way back to Spain.
    I live in Oregon. The Oregon Territory was established by an act of congress in 1848 after a dispute with Britain that nearly came to bloodshed. Apparently Allodial title was retained by the US government for this area (Oregon, Washington and Idaho, mostly). The Oregon Constitution (ratified 1859) does not modify this arrangement but it does provide for land patents, not in the constitution but rather in the Oregon Revised Statues, referencing the original territorial act.

    PS, there is a ton of useful information here (Deborah, take notice),

    http://www.sodahead.com/blog/27077/a...-land-patents/
    Last edited by Old Ducker; 04-21-2009 at 04:46 PM.

  22. #19
    Bump.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people too.



    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  23. #20
    Good bump thanks
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