Lessons Learned

[Pericles]

Toward the end of a thread in this forum, I was asked to pass along some information regarding tactics. This is the first post in this regard.

Lesson: Don't have a firefight in your home - you will lose. You may be successful in defeating an armed intruder, but an assault made by an organized team has one result - the capture or death of the inhabitant(s). Your plan should be to create a melee situation, in which you can conduct sequential engagements, while limited force can be brought to bear on you.

How does this work? Even if you have your interior sandbagged, you are a stationary target, and it is a matter of time before superior force is brought to bear. Reports from the sandbox, are that it is over before anybody empties a single magazine of ammunition, and the target of the raid seldom survives. Your task is to avoid that situation, which means either (A) you have an escape if your home is under attack, or (B) you are not in the home when the attack take place. Both are very hard to do.

Early warning is the key to survival - with it, you can position yourself to create surprise by not being where you are expected to be and doing what you are expected to do. The first step in creating a defensible position is the ability to see what is coming before it arrives. Methods that can do this are electronic equipment, controlled access points and observation, and finally the establishment of observation posts in order to prevent the surprise of the main compound.

Success depends on freedom of maneuver and the ability to have the initiative.

[Original_Intent]

I look forward to any information you have to provide. Your beginning has my attention.

[Conza88]

Early warning is the key to survival - with it, you can position yourself to create surprise by not being where you are expected to be and doing what you are expected to do. The first step in creating a defensible position is the ability to see what is coming before it arrives. Methods that can do this are electronic equipment, controlled access points and observation, and finally the establishment of observation posts in order to prevent the surprise of the main compound.

Success depends on freedom of maneuver and the ability to have the initiative.

Very good post.

Which imo, can be translated to the current situation.

"End the Fed" needs to slowly merge into "The Evil of Fiat", "Say NO to World Central Bank", "Sound Money not Funny Money", "END the UN", "Say NO the NWO", "Flat Tax is a Fat Tax", "Gold is Good", "Good as Gold", "Democracy is not Liberty"... </something like that>

[cheapseats]

Toward the end of a thread in this forum, I was asked to pass along some information regarding tactics. This is the first post in this regard.

Lesson: Don't have a firefight in your home - you will lose. You may be successful in defeating an armed intruder, but an assault made by an organized team has one result - the capture or death of the inhabitant(s). Your plan should be to create a melee situation, in which you can conduct sequential engagements, while limited force can be brought to bear on you.

How does this work? Even if you have your interior sandbagged, you are a stationary target, and it is a matter of time before superior force is brought to bear. Reports from the sandbox, are that it is over before anybody empties a single magazine of ammunition, and the target of the raid seldom survives. Your task is to avoid that situation, which means either (A) you have an escape if your home is under attack, or (B) you are not in the home when the attack take place. Both are very hard to do.

Early warning is the key to survival - with it, you can position yourself to create surprise by not being where you are expected to be and doing what you are expected to do. The first step in creating a defensible position is the ability to see what is coming before it arrives. Methods that can do this are electronic equipment, controlled access points and observation, and finally the establishment of observation posts in order to prevent the surprise of the main compound.

Success depends on freedom of maneuver and the ability to have the initiative.

With respect, yes? But also profound disappointment.

You had best PARTICULARLY give lessons for the at-home firefight, for there is every indication that home is where most of your comrades will be seated, typing animatedly about things they will never do. That's the lesson I have learned. A very few are the ALL THAT seize-it-own-it-fix-it types, who think they can pull it all off on their own -- father knows best -- and the rest are just guys.

Talk is cheap. Typing is cheaper.

[Doktor_Jeep]

Ummm.

Those, uh, "tactical entries" they do?

That's for the capture of the inhabitants in a safe manner, usually tailored for those cases where the inhabitant is involved in the drug trade.

Those involved in the drug trade are as important to the criminal justice system as cows are to a dairy farmer. The don't kill the cow to get the milk.

The people in the drug trade are in fact part of the greater overall drug trade that is run by the government and shadow elements within. Even those rogues outside of the loops - the ones who get raided, are useful in many ways.

If they simply killed them or locked them up for good - and I know the latter is not the case because most of the time people caught only with drugs and no guns will walk in short time after large fines and a plea deal - there would be less drug trade, and hence less money. Even worse, less excuse for the police state and funding.

No it will be different for us.

They will not enter the house. They know better than that. Do the math.

They will burn it down within 20 minutes. Maybe sooner if the threat assessment deems that their perimeter will be demolished by outside help. Some say thermobarics would be used, other say just plain old "tear gas".

Two harbingers for this are the "Beck incident" in California on 09-10-2001, where they told the news chopper the suspect had "anti-aircraft" missiles and should back off, and shortly afterward the house caught fire. Then there is the Scott Woodring case. They went out of their way to shoot his antenna down.

WE are not as important as drug dealers. Drug dealers can get drugs and either work for the state, or can work for the state, or do the state a favor by existing and justifying more state. Stunning them with a flash-bang and a tactical entry where nobody gets hurt is courtesy amongst thugs.


Remember that.

[Anti Federalist]

Toward the end of a thread in this forum, I was asked to pass along some information regarding tactics. This is the first post in this regard.

Lesson: Don't have a firefight in your home - you will lose. You may be successful in defeating an armed intruder, but an assault made by an organized team has one result - the capture or death of the inhabitant(s). Your plan should be to create a melee situation, in which you can conduct sequential engagements, while limited force can be brought to bear on you.

How does this work? Even if you have your interior sandbagged, you are a stationary target, and it is a matter of time before superior force is brought to bear. Reports from the sandbox, are that it is over before anybody empties a single magazine of ammunition, and the target of the raid seldom survives. Your task is to avoid that situation, which means either (A) you have an escape if your home is under attack, or (B) you are not in the home when the attack take place. Both are very hard to do.

Early warning is the key to survival - with it, you can position yourself to create surprise by not being where you are expected to be and doing what you are expected to do. The first step in creating a defensible position is the ability to see what is coming before it arrives. Methods that can do this are electronic equipment, controlled access points and observation, and finally the establishment of observation posts in order to prevent the surprise of the main compound.

Success depends on freedom of maneuver and the ability to have the initiative.

Never defend a fixed position against superior forces.

Absolutely $#@!ing right.

[JoshLowry]

Two harbingers for this are the "Beck incident" in California on 09-10-2001, where they told the news chopper the suspect had "anti-aircraft" missiles and should back off, and shortly afterward the house caught fire.

Link? Google gives me nada.

[Doktor_Jeep]

Beck case (all kinds of opinions so do the research and make up your mind).
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@lis.../msg75481.html

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/stevenson.html

http://www.greatdreams.com/atf_8-31-2001.html


Woodring:

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/7-0...on.cgi.13.html

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...2249--,00.html


google gets good hits on this case - there was an interesting video out there on this but I could not find it.

[jkm1864]

You fail to realize that most people that try to invade Your home are cowards. These total waste of sperm don't even have the courage to get a real job so they go out and steal. These same pukes think their is safety in numbers but once the boom boom begins they will run like the cowards they are. I have insurance against these types of people its called 7.62X51, .223, & 7.62X39. Once these shells start flying it will make anyone crap their pants. So I am not going to worry about these people. The ones I am worried about are the ones that work in tactical teams and work as a unit. The only hope You can have in that situation is by doing Your part to kill at least one so eventually the monster will not have anymore meat for the grinder. I am not a violent person but I will protect my family which I should expect every ones else here would too.

[Doktor_Jeep]

You fail to realize that most people that try to invade Your home are cowards. These total waste of sperm don't even have the courage to get a real job so they go out and steal. These same pukes think their is safety in numbers but once the boom boom begins they will run like the cowards they are. I have insurance against these types of people its called 7.62X51, .223, & 7.62X39. Once these shells start flying it will make anyone crap their pants. So I am not going to worry about these people. The ones I am worried about are the ones that work in tactical teams and work as a unit. The only hope You can have in that situation is by doing Your part to kill at least one so eventually the monster will not have anymore meat for the grinder. I am not a violent person but I will protect my family which I should expect every ones else here would too.

Yes I have seen off-duty operators and veterans try their "conga lines" and get hosed in air soft and completely fall apart. The rub is that the hoser was not fearing death.

That's the key.


There is a vast difference, and ocean, in the tactics of one who fears death and one who does not.

Much is said about "survival" in a gun fight and much of the tactics are centered around that. However the trick question was missed. If it was all about survival, there would not be a gun fight in the first place.

[Pericles]

With respect, yes? But also profound disappointment.

You had best PARTICULARLY give lessons for the at-home firefight, for there is every indication that home is where most of your comrades will be seated, typing animatedly about things they will never do. That's the lesson I have learned. A very few are the ALL THAT seize-it-own-it-fix-it types, who think they can pull it all off on their own -- father knows best -- and the rest are just guys.

Talk is cheap. Typing is cheaper.

Home defense has 4 basic strategies and you can use any or all of them.

1. Passive Security - you try to go about your life unobtrusively in order to create the impression that you have nothing of value that is worth the effort it would take to do so. Your objective is to be an invisible fish in a big ocean. It has its limits in that all decision as to what is going to happen to you are made by someone else - statists are convinced that this is the best solution for you.

2. Hard Shell - this is the security based on not letting a threat into your home. This is hardened doors, bars on the windows, and such as a deterrence to being an easy victim. This tends to work to keep undisciplined land pirates at bay in the hopes that they will choose an easier victim. If you specifically are the intended target, this security method buys you about 5 to 15 seconds of time.

3. Defense in Depth - the method is an extension of #2, by adding more measures such as security cameras, weapons in the home, and a few other options which can include - hardened room with sandbags, or cement barriers, possible escape routes (attic or under floor depending on type of construction). This is a castle keep strategy based on either holding out long enough for help to arrive, fight off the attack, or DIP (Die In Place). This is about the most you can do in a urban setting - this is a matter of time and numbers - a high number of attackers in a compressed amount of time are going to get you.

4. Extend the Defensive Perimeter - The goal is to identify and engage the attack before it gets to your home - hard to do in an urban setting unless most of the neighborhood is part of the solution. This works well as part of a group - because it is designed to keep the engagement away from what must be protected, but is very difficult for an individual to accomplish - greatest success is in the active defense method of attacking the attacker as the attacker is trying to get into position to conduct an attack.