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Thread: Economics 101: Without the BS

  1. #31
    there's a happy medium, prolly. perhaps an ebay example or something? dumb it down for me too
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Murray N. Rothbard
    Money is a crucial command post of any economy, and therefore of any society. Society rests upon a network of voluntary exchanges, also known as the "free-market economy"; these exchanges imply a division of labor in society, in which producers of eggs, nails, horses, lumber, and immaterial services such as teaching, medical care, and concerts, exchange their goods for the goods of others. At each step of the way, every participant in exchange benefits immeasurably, for if everyone were forced to be self-sufficient, those few who managed to survive would be reduced to a pitiful standard of living.

    Direct exchange of goods and services, also known as "barter," is hopelessly unproductive beyond the most primitive level, and indeed every "primitive" tribe soon found its way to the discovery of the tremendous benefits of arriving, on the market, at one particularly marketable commodity, one in general demand, to use as a "medium" of "indirect exchange." If a particular commodity is in widespread use as a medium in a society, then that general medium of exchange is called "money."

    The money-commodity becomes one term in every single one of the innumerable exchanges in the market economy. I sell my services as a teacher for money; I use that money to buy groceries, typewriters, or travel accommodations; and these producers in turn use the money to pay their workers, to buy equipment and inventory, and pay rent for their buildings. Hence the ever-present temptation for one or more groups to seize control of the vital money-supply function.

    Many useful goods have been chosen as moneys in human societies. Salt in Africa, sugar in the Caribbean, fish in colonial New England, tobacco in the colonial Chesapeake Bay region, cowrie shells, iron hoes, and many other commodities have been used as moneys. Not only do these moneys serve as media of exchange; they enable individuals and business firms to engage in the "calculation" necessary to any advanced economy. Moneys are traded and reckoned in terms of a currency unit, almost always units of weight. Tobacco, for example, was reckoned in pound weights. Prices of other goods and services could be figured in terms of pounds of tobacco; a certain horse might be worth 80 pounds on the market. A business firm could then calculate its profit or loss for the previous month; it could figure that its income for the past month was 1,000 pounds and its expenditures 800 pounds, netting it a 200 pound profit.
    Gold or Government Paper

    Throughout history, two commodities have been able to outcompete all other goods and be chosen on the market as money — two precious metals, gold and silver (with copper coming in when one of the other precious metals was not available). Gold and silver abounded in what we can call "moneyable" qualities, qualities that rendered them superior to all other commodities. They are in rare enough supply that their value will be stable, and of high value per unit weight; hence pieces of gold or silver will be easily portable, and usable in day-to-day transactions; they are rare enough too, so that there is little likelihood of sudden discoveries or increases in supply. They are durable so that they can last virtually forever, and so they provide a safe "store of value" for the future. And gold and silver are divisible, so that they can be divided into small pieces without losing their value; unlike diamonds, for example, they are homogeneous, so that one ounce of gold will be of equal value to any other.
    "There is no aspect of the free-market economy that has suffered more scorn and contempt from 'modern' economists, whether frankly statist Keynesians or allegedly 'free market' Chicagoites, than has gold."

    The universal and ancient use of gold and silver as moneys was pointed out by the first great monetary theorist, the eminent 14th-century French scholastic Jean Buridan, and then in all discussions of money down to money and banking textbooks until the Western governments abolished the gold standard in the early 1930s. Franklin D. Roosevelt joined in this deed by taking the United States off gold in 1933.

    There is no aspect of the free-market economy that has suffered more scorn and contempt from "modern" economists, whether frankly statist Keynesians or allegedly "free market" Chicagoites, than has gold. Gold, not long ago hailed as the basic staple and groundwork of any sound monetary system, is now regularly denounced as a "fetish" or, as in the case of Keynes, as a "barbarous relic." Well, gold is indeed a "relic" of barbarism in one sense; no "barbarian" worth his salt would ever have accepted the phony paper and bank credit that we modern sophisticates have been bamboozled into using as money.

    But "gold bugs" are not fetishists; we don't fit the standard image of misers running their fingers through their hoard of gold coins while cackling in sinister fashion. The great thing about gold is that it, and only it, is money supplied by the free market, by the people at work. For the stark choice before us always is: gold (or silver), or government. Gold is market money, a commodity which must be supplied by being dug out of the ground and then processed; but government, on the contrary, supplies virtually costless paper money or bank checks out of thin air.

    We know, in the first place, that all government operation is wasteful, inefficient, and serves the bureaucrat rather than the consumer. Would we prefer to have shoes produced by competitive private firms on the free market, or by a giant monopoly of the federal government? The function of supplying money could be handled no better by government. But the situation in money is far worse than for shoes or any other commodity. If the government produces shoes, at least they might be worn, even though they might be high-priced, fit badly, and not satisfy consumer wants.

    Money is different from all other commodities: other things being equal, more shoes, or more discoveries of oil or copper benefit society, since they help alleviate natural scarcity. But once a commodity is established as a money on the market, no more money at all is needed. Since the only use of money is for exchange and reckoning, more dollars or pounds or marks in circulation cannot confer a social benefit: they will simply dilute the exchange value of every existing dollar or pound or mark. So it is a great boon that gold or silver are scarce and are costly to increase in supply.

    But if government manages to establish paper tickets or bank credit as money, as equivalent to gold grams or ounces, then the government, as dominant money-supplier, becomes free to create money costlessly and at will. As a result, this "inflation" of the money supply destroys the value of the dollar or pound, drives up prices, cripples economic calculation, and hobbles and seriously damages the workings of the market economy.

    The natural tendency of government, once in charge of money, is to inflate and to destroy the value of the currency. To understand this truth, we must examine the nature of government and of the creation of money. Throughout history, governments have been chronically short of revenue. The reason should be clear: unlike you and me, governments do not produce useful goods and services that they can sell on the market; governments, rather than producing and selling services, live parasitically off the market and off society. Unlike every other person and institution in society, government obtains its revenue from coercion, from taxation. In older and saner times, indeed, the king was able to obtain sufficient revenue from the products of his own private lands and forests, as well as through highway tolls. For the State to achieve regularized, peacetime taxation was a struggle of centuries. And even after taxation was established, the kings realized that they could not easily impose new taxes or higher rates on old levies; if they did so, revolution was very apt to break out.
    Controlling the Money Supply

    If taxation is permanently short of the style of expenditures desired by the State, how can it make up the difference? By getting control of the money supply, or, to put it bluntly, by counterfeiting. On the market economy, we can only obtain good money by selling a good or service in exchange for gold, or by receiving a gift; the only other way to get money is to engage in the costly process of digging gold out of the ground. The counterfeiter, on the other hand, is a thief who attempts to profit by forgery, e.g., by painting a piece of brass to look like a gold coin. If his counterfeit is detected immediately, he does no real harm, but to the extent his counterfeit goes undetected, the counterfeiter is able to steal not only from the producers whose goods he buys. For the counterfeiter, by introducing fake money into the economy, is able to steal from everyone by robbing every person of the value of his currency. By diluting the value of each ounce or dollar of genuine money, the counterfeiter's theft is more sinister and more truly subversive than that of the highwayman; for he robs everyone in society, and the robbery is stealthy and hidden, so that the cause-and-effect relation is camouflaged.
    "The natural tendency of government, once in charge of money, is to inflate and to destroy the value of the currency."

    Recently, we saw the scare headline: "Iranian Government Tries to Destroy U.S. Economy by Counterfeiting $100 Bills." Whether the ayatollahs had such grandiose goals in mind is dubious; counterfeiters don't need a grand rationale for grabbing resources by printing money. But all counterfeiting is indeed subversive and destructive, as well as inflationary.

    But in that case, what are we to say when the government seizes control of the money supply, abolishes gold as money, and establishes its own printed tickets as the only money? In other words, what are we to say when the government becomes the legalized, monopoly counterfeiter?

    Not only has the counterfeit been detected, but the Grand Counterfeiter, in the United States the Federal Reserve System, instead of being reviled as a massive thief and destroyer, is hailed and celebrated as the wise manipulator and governor of our "macroeconomy," the agency on which we rely for keeping us out of recessions and inflations, and which we count on to determine interest rates, capital prices, and employment. Instead of being habitually pelted with tomatoes and rotten eggs, the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, whoever he may be, whether the imposing Paul Volcker or the owlish Alan Greenspan, is universally hailed as Mr. Indispensable to the economic and financial system.

    Indeed, the best way to penetrate the mysteries of the modern monetary and banking system is to realize that the government and its central bank act precisely as would a Grand Counterfeiter, with very similar social and economic effects. Many years ago, the New Yorker magazine, in the days when its cartoons were still funny, published a cartoon of a group of counterfeiters looking eagerly at their printing press as the first $10 bill came rolling off the press. "Boy," said one of the team, "retail spending in the neighborhood is sure in for a shot in the arm."

    And it was. As the counterfeiters print new money, spending goes up on whatever the counterfeiters wish to purchase: personal retail goods for themselves, as well as loans and other "general welfare" purposes in the case of the government. But the resulting "prosperity" is phony; all that happens is that more money bids away existing resources, so that prices rise. Furthermore, the counterfeiters and the early recipients of the new money bid away resources from the poor suckers who are down at the end of the line to receive the new money, or who never even receive it at all.

    New money injected into the economy has an inevitable ripple effect; early receivers of the new money spend more and bid up prices, while later receivers or those on fixed incomes find the prices of the goods they must buy unaccountably rising, while their own incomes lag behind or remain the same. Monetary inflation, in other words, not only raises prices and destroys the value of the currency unit; it also acts as a giant system of expropriation of the late receivers by the counterfeiters themselves and by the other early receivers. Monetary expansion is a massive scheme of hidden redistribution.
    "Instead of being habitually pelted with tomatoes and rotten eggs, the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board is universally hailed as Mr. Indispensable to the economic and financial system."

    When the government is the counterfeiter, the counterfeiting process not only can be "detected"; it proclaims itself openly as monetary statesmanship for the public weal. Monetary expansion then becomes a giant scheme of hidden taxation, the tax falling on fixed income groups, on those groups remote from government spending and subsidy, and on thrifty savers who are naive enough and trusting enough to hold on to their money, to have faith in the value of the currency.

    Spending and going into debt are encouraged; thrift and hard work discouraged and penalized. Not only that: the groups that benefit are the special interest groups who are politically close to the government and can exert pressure to have the new money spent on them so that their incomes can rise faster than the price inflation. Government contractors, politically connected businesses, unions, and other pressure groups will benefit at the expense of the unaware and unorganized public.

    We have already described one part of the contemporary flight from sound, free-market money to statized and inflated money: the abolition of the gold standard by Franklin Roosevelt in 1933, and the substitution of fiat paper tickets by the Federal Reserve as our "monetary standard." Another crucial part of this process was the federal cartelization of the nation's banks through the creation of the Federal Reserve System in 1913.

    Banking is a particularly arcane part of the economic system; one of the problems is that the word "bank" covers many different activities, with very different implications. During the Renaissance era, the Medicis in Italy and the Fuggers in Germany, were "bankers"; their banking, however, was not only private but also began at least as a legitimate, noninflationary, and highly productive activity. Essentially, these were "merchant-bankers," who started as prominent merchants. In the course of their trade, the merchants began to extend credit to their customers, and in the case of these great banking families, the credit or "banking" part of their operations eventually overshadowed their mercantile activities. These firms lent money out of their own profits and savings, and earned interest from the loans. Hence, they were channels for the productive investment of their own savings.

    To the extent that banks lend their own savings, or mobilize the savings of others, their activities are productive and unexceptionable. Even in our current commercial banking system, if I buy a $10,000 CD ("certificate of deposit") redeemable in six months, earning a certain fixed interest return, I am taking my savings and lending it to a bank, which in turn lends it out at a higher interest rate, the differential being the bank's earnings for the function of channeling savings into the hands of credit-worthy or productive borrowers. There is no problem with this process.
    "The problem with the investment bankers is that one of their major fields of investment was the underwriting of government bonds, which plunged them hip deep into politics…"

    The same is even true of the great "investment banking" houses, which developed as industrial capitalism flowered in the 19th century. Investment bankers would take their own capital, or capital invested or loaned by others, to underwrite corporations gathering capital by selling securities to stockholders and creditors. The problem with the investment bankers is that one of their major fields of investment was the underwriting of government bonds, which plunged them hip deep into politics, giving them a powerful incentive for pressuring and manipulating governments, so that taxes would be levied to pay off their and their clients' government bonds. Hence, the powerful and baleful political influence of investment bankers in the 19th and 20th centuries: in particular, the Rothschilds in Western Europe, and Jay Cooke and the House of Morgan in the United States.

    By the late 19th century, the Morgans took the lead in trying to pressure the US government to cartelize industries they were interested in — first railroads and then manufacturing: to protect these industries from the winds of free competition, and to use the power of government to enable these industries to restrict production and raise prices.

    In particular, the investment bankers acted as a ginger group to work for the cartelization of commercial banks. To some extent, commercial bankers lend out their own capital and money acquired by CDs. But most commercial banking is "deposit banking" based on a gigantic scam: the idea, which most depositors believe, that their money is down at the bank, ready to be redeemed in cash at any time. If Jim has a checking account of $1,000 at a local bank, Jim knows that this is a "demand deposit," that is, that the bank pledges to pay him $1,000 in cash, on demand, anytime he wishes to "get his money out." Naturally, the Jims of this world are convinced that their money is safely there, in the bank, for them to take out at any time. Hence, they think of their checking account as equivalent to a warehouse receipt. If they put a chair in a warehouse before going on a trip, they expect to get the chair back whenever they present the receipt. Unfortunately, while banks depend on the warehouse analogy, the depositors are systematically deluded. Their money ain't there.

    An honest warehouse makes sure that the goods entrusted to its care are there, in its storeroom or vault. But banks operate very differently, at least since the days of such deposit banks as the Banks of Amsterdam and Hamburg in the 17th century, which indeed acted as warehouses and backed all of their receipts fully by the assets deposited, e.g., gold and silver. This honest deposit or "giro" banking is called "100 percent reserve" banking. Ever since, banks have habitually created warehouse receipts (originally bank notes and now deposits) out of thin air. Essentially, they are counterfeiters of fake warehouse receipts to cash or standard money, which circulate as if they were genuine, fully backed notes or checking accounts. Banks make money by literally creating money out of thin air, nowadays exclusively deposits rather than bank notes. This sort of swindling or counterfeiting is dignified by the term "fractional reserve banking," which means that bank deposits are backed by only a small fraction of the cash they promise to have at hand and redeem. (Right now, in the United States, this minimum fraction is fixed by the Federal Reserve System at 10 percent.)
    Fractional Reserve Banking

    Let's see how the fractional-reserve process works, in the absence of a central bank. I set up a Rothbard Bank, and invest $1,000 of cash (whether gold or government paper does not matter here). Then I "lend out" $10,000 to someone, either for consumer spending or to invest in his business. How can I "lend out" far more than I have? Ahh, that's the magic of the "fraction" in the fractional reserve. I simply open up a checking account of $10,000 which I am happy to lend to Mr. Jones. Why does Jones borrow from me? Well, for one thing, I can charge a lower rate of interest than savers would. I don't have to save up the money myself, but can simply counterfeit it out of thin air. (In the 19th century, I would have been able to issue bank notes, but the Federal Reserve now monopolizes note issues.) Since demand deposits at the Rothbard Bank function as equivalent to cash, the nation's money supply has just, by magic, increased by $10,000. The inflationary, counterfeiting process is under way.
    "Unfortunately, while banks depend on the warehouse analogy, the depositors are systematically deluded. Their money ain't there."

    The 19th-century English economist Thomas Tooke correctly stated that "free trade in banking is tantamount to free trade in swindling." But under freedom, and without government support, there are some severe hitches in this counterfeiting process, or in what has been termed "free banking."

    First, why should anyone trust me? Why should anyone accept the checking deposits of the Rothbard Bank?

    But second, even if I were trusted, and I were able to con my way into the trust of the gullible, there is another severe problem, caused by the fact that the banking system is competitive, with free entry into the field. After all, the Rothbard Bank is limited in its clientele. After Jones borrows checking deposits from me, he is going to spend that money. Why else pay for a loan? Sooner or later, the money he spends, whether for a vacation, or for expanding his business, will be spent on the goods or services of clients of some other bank, say the Rockwell Bank. The Rockwell Bank is not particularly interested in holding checking accounts on my bank; it wants reserves so that it can pyramid its own counterfeiting on top of cash reserves. And so if, to make the case simple, the Rockwell Bank gets a $10,000 check on the Rothbard Bank, it is going to demand cash so that it can do some inflationary counterfeit pyramiding of its own.

    But, I, of course, can't pay the $10,000, so I'm finished. Bankrupt. Found out. By rights, I should be in jail as an embezzler, but at least my phoney checking deposits and I are out of the game, and out of the money supply.

    Hence, under free competition, and without government support and enforcement, there will only be limited scope for fractional-reserve counterfeiting. Banks could form cartels to prop each other up, but generally cartels on the market don't work well without government enforcement, without the government cracking down on competitors who insist on busting the cartel, in this case, forcing competing banks to pay up.
    Central Banking

    Hence the drive by the bankers themselves to get the government to cartelize their industry by means of a central bank. Central banking began with the Bank of England in the 1690s, spread to the rest of the Western world in the 18th and 19th centuries, and finally was imposed upon the United States by banking cartelists via the Federal Reserve System of 1913. Particularly enthusiastic about the central bank were the investment bankers, such as the Morgans, who pioneered the cartel idea, and who by this time had expanded into commercial banking.
    "Interestingly, all economists agree on the mechanics of this process even though they of course disagree sharply on the moral or economic evaluation of that process."
    mises.com



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  5. #33
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by gonegolfin View Post
    No Mike. This is not being technical. It is being accurate. You simply cannot say that the government can obtain whatever amount of money it desires from the Fed (or that the government can obtain funding from the Fed at all). This is not how the government obtains funding. The government must obtain funding via treasury auction (unless other special auctions are arranged). The Fed has no authority to lend directly to the Treasury.

    It is OK to dumb things down. But not when the dumbing down leads to a serious mistruth that is then propagated as the truth. This diminishes the message of those attempting to dismantle the Fed.

    Brian
    It winds up with the same result. So some other 3rd party buys from the govt and then the fed buys from them, but the govt still winds up getting screwed paying $100 for a piece of paper that should only cost 4 cents.. plus interst to boot

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    It winds up with the same result. So some other 3rd party buys from the govt and then the fed buys from them, but the govt still winds up getting screwed paying $100 for a piece of paper that should only cost 4 cents.. plus interst to boot
    No, it is not quite the same result. The Treasury must be able to auction the debt in order for the government to achieve its desired funding. That is, there must be buyers for the debt other than the Fed. If there is a run on the currency, you will see failed auctions and thus a funding deficit. The Fed supporting the treasury market will subsequently fail as auctions of debt will be avoided.

    Great Britain has already experienced a failed auction this year (without a run on the currency). I could definitely see some failed US Treasury auctions in the next couple of years. A response by the Fed to monetize more Treasury debt may be very negatively received by treasury investors resulting in more failed auctions (both in number and in $ amount of failed auctions).

    Brian
    Last edited by gonegolfin; 04-10-2009 at 07:33 PM.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by gonegolfin View Post
    No, it is not quite the same result. The Treasury must be able to auction the debt in order for the government to achieve its desired funding. That is, there must be buyers for the debt other than the Fed. If there is a run on the currency, you will see failed auctions and thus a funding deficit. The Fed supporting the treasury market will subsequently fail as auctions of debt will be avoided.

    Great Britain has already experienced a failed auction this year (without a run on the currency). I could definitely see some failed US Treasury auctions in the next couple of years. A response by the Fed to monetize more Treasury debt may be very negatively received by treasury investors resulting in more failed auctions (both in number and in $ amount of failed auctions).

    Brian
    I wish you would post more often. You and a small handful of other posters seem to be the only people on these forums that really understands economics and how our system works. Everyone else seems like they are just repeating verbatim what they heard in some propaganda movie like "Money as debt."

    I still have a lot to learn and you definitely help.

  8. #36
    Brian has a great understanding of this stuff. He has corrected me more than a few times.
    I have forgotten some of it since college.

  9. #37
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by brandonyates View Post
    Good job!

    Only one problem I see with it.

    "(The silver content is always worth the price of 4 gallons of gasoline.) "

    I know what you're trying to say, but this isn't right. Right now you can actually get more like 7 or 8 gallons of gas for an ounce of silver. Last summer you could only get about 3 or 4.
    well just fyi, the silver dollar isnt a full ounce.. its .7736 of an ounce i believe.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    well just fyi, the silver dollar isnt a full ounce.. its .7736 of an ounce i believe.
    Do you have any of the old silver dollars?

    Brian

  11. #39
    What's up with HR 1207, Ron Paul's bill to Audit the Fed?

    From the posts here, seems like what the Fed and Treasury does is out in the open and their actions are already known.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  12. #40
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by gonegolfin View Post
    Do you have any of the old silver dollars?

    Brian
    Yeah, ive got a couple.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by brandonyates View Post
    I wish you would post more often. You and a small handful of other posters seem to be the only people on these forums that really understands economics and how our system works. Everyone else seems like they are just repeating verbatim what they heard in some propaganda movie like "Money as debt."

    I still have a lot to learn and you definitely help.
    You are kind Brandon. I wish I could post more often as well. But my job often extends into my leisure hours these days. And the family comes first. I do get opportunities in spurts ... especially late at night.

    Brian

  15. #42
    ...
    Last edited by Jace; 06-29-2009 at 10:53 PM.

  16. #43
    Hate to ask a silly semantics question, but this always pops up in my head when reading/discussing the nature of the Fed.

    Since the Federal Reserve is given protected monopoly privileges by the government, could one not say it is an extension of government?

    Governent ---- > uses force to ensure monopoly privilege = The Fed is a government backed monopoly = is not a private institution.

  17. #44
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew-Austin View Post
    Hate to ask a silly semantics question, but this always pops up in my head when reading/discussing the nature of the Fed.

    Since the Federal Reserve is given protected monopoly privileges by the government, could one not say it is an extension of government?

    Governent ---- > uses force to ensure monopoly privilege = The Fed is a government backed monopoly = is not a private institution.
    I guess it depends on how you look at it.. The govt likes to use multiple definitions for the fed as it is.

    viz:

    If you want to see something of the fed using the FOIA the courts will simply decree that they are not a government institution but are a private institution and the FOIA has no bearing on it.


    However,

    If you are the state of New York and you want the federal reserve to pay state income tax, the courts will decree that the fed is a "federal instrumentality" and cannot be taxed.

  18. #45
    This is going to seem like I'm nitpicking what may be a minor point in your article, but in the interest of improving this article I believe it isn't such a minor point.

    I am specifically speaking of this sentence:

    And as an added bonus there will be less idiots out there trying to sue McDonalds for making them fat or burning them with "Hot" coffee.
    The part I'm "nitpicking" is the burning them with "Hot" coffee bit. (For the record I completely agree that suing over getting fat is absurdly stupid).

    While many here have likely seen this item before and have lamented to themselves (in the interest of being responsible for ones own actions) that the lady who famously burned herself after spilling McDonald's coffee was a lawsuit that never should have seen the light of day in a courtroom are missing some key components of this case.

    First and foremost, it was (and maybe still is) the policy of McDonalds to store their coffee at extremely high temperatures. Regardless of their reasons for doing so, this was not the first time someone had been severely burned by their coffee. The lady in this story had to undergo a series of necessary surgeries in order to correct the problems she suffered as a result of coffee that legitimately was a danger. McDonald's had been warned time and time again to turn down the temperature and they refused.

    In addition, the only damages initially asked for from McDonald's was to cover medical expenses related to the third degree burns suffered by the injured. McDonald's refused and as a result were sued (and rightfully so).

    This was a clear cut case where a private business refused to heed the complaints against it at it's own peril. This, in my opinion, was a well deserved slap on the wrist against McDonald's for knowingly and intentionally serving a product that did cause very real damage and injury.

    If you still do not agree with my assessment of this case, ask yourself if your opinion of this case would have been any different if instead of "clumsily" spilling the coffee in her lap she had taken a sip instead.

    My point is, the article would be much better absent the assuming statement regarding burning oneself with hot coffee.
    We have two major parties [in America], the stupid party and the evil party. Every once in a while they manage to work together and we call it "bipartisanship".
    ~Thomas Woods, Rally for the Republic

  19. #46
    Dumbing down a subject area and subsequently promoting inaccuracies is what the progressive movement does. It should not be what the libertarian movement does.

    You should encourage others to better themselves by fully understanding the complicated material and not facilitate lazyness by dumbing the material down.

  20. #47
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by MPN View Post
    Dumbing down a subject area and subsequently promoting inaccuracies is what the progressive movement does. It should not be what the libertarian movement does.

    You should encourage others to better themselves by fully understanding the complicated material and not facilitate lazyness by dumbing the material down.
    So says Mr. 5 posts.

    Look, for those of us out there who enjoy taking an entire Saturday afternoon off to read thru Supreme Court cases to learn about the income tax, they dont need to read this article.

    But for the average guy out there who busts his ass 40 hours a week to put food on the table and doesnt have the time or the desire, its up to people like us who do understand, to bring the message of Liberty to them, so they can understand.

    This is my belief.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    So says Mr. 5 posts.

    Look, for those of us out there who enjoy taking an entire Saturday afternoon off to read thru Supreme Court cases to learn about the income tax, they dont need to read this article.

    But for the average guy out there who busts his ass 40 hours a week to put food on the table and doesnt have the time or the desire, its up to people like us who do understand, to bring the message of Liberty to them, so they can understand.

    This is my belief.
    Wow, you have more than 3000 posts, but you're still an elitist. That's pretty $#@!ty.

    We can deliver our message in full because we are right, and people who adopt our "fringe" platform will only do so because they fully understand it and believe in it. If our "leaders" give us placations and pat us on the head while making deals regarding the future of a large number of people (whether it's the liberty movement or the nation), then are they really any better than the Republicrats?



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  23. #49
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by tmosley View Post
    Wow, you have more than 3000 posts, but you're still an elitist. That's pretty $#@!ty.

    We can deliver our message in full because we are right, and people who adopt our "fringe" platform will only do so because they fully understand it and believe in it. If our "leaders" give us placations and pat us on the head while making deals regarding the future of a large number of people (whether it's the liberty movement or the nation), then are they really any better than the Republicrats?
    No, It's called teaching people.

    If a medical doctor is talking to me about triglycerides and I dont understand, but he can use an analogy comparing carbon receptors to couplers on a railroad car and THEN I understand, then that is a good thing.

    This is the same thing. Getting people to understand.

    Once people understand, perhaps they might become more interested and learn about all the intricate details, but even if they dont, they still understand.

    Knowing the problem is half the battle my friend.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    No, It's called teaching people.

    If a medical doctor is talking to me about triglycerides and I dont understand, but he can use an analogy comparing carbon receptors to couplers on a railroad car and THEN I understand, then that is a good thing.

    This is the same thing. Getting people to understand.

    Once people understand, perhaps they might become more interested and learn about all the intricate details, but even if they dont, they still understand.

    Knowing the problem is half the battle my friend.
    I agree with this 100%, there is nothing wrong with simplifying a matter to facilitate more efficient education.

    I still have trouble with inaccuracies that result, if there are any. I do not know enough to have an opinion as to whether the initial claim that inaccuracies exist in the OP has merit, but if so, it seems to me a minor edit may be due.

    Again, thanks for the OP - it is really very well done.
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    No, It's called teaching people.

    If a medical doctor is talking to me about triglycerides and I dont understand, but he can use an analogy comparing carbon receptors to couplers on a railroad car and THEN I understand, then that is a good thing.

    This is the same thing. Getting people to understand.

    Once people understand, perhaps they might become more interested and learn about all the intricate details, but even if they dont, they still understand.

    Knowing the problem is half the battle my friend.

    You do make a convincing point with the medical analogy.

    I apologize for only having 5 posts, I only recently became aware of these forums. You, apparently, had the fortune of finding them at an earlier date than I.

    I did not mean my original comments to devalue your efforts. To take a constructive approach, I would rephrase my original post to suggest that you place some sort of disclaimer at the top to warn people not to take your post as factually flawless.

  26. #52

    How Currency Gets into Circulation

    How cash money gets into circulation:
    Treasury prints it, the Fed distributes it to the banks. The Fed does not charge the government for this. The Fed sells it at face value to the banks.
    http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefe...int/fed01.html
    There is about $829 billion dollars of U.S. currency in circulation; the majority is held outside the United States.
    The Federal Reserve Banks distribute new currency for the U.S. Treasury Department, which prints it.
    Depository institutions buy currency from Federal Reserve Banks when they need it to meet customer demand, and they deposit cash at the Fed when they have more than they need to meet customer demand.
    More detailed info at the link if you are interested.


    If the government needs money, to cover them spending more than they collected in taxes, they notify the Treasury which will determine how much money to raise and they hold an auction for Treasury notes equal to the amount of money they need to rase at that time. Investors who wish to purchase them make a bid of how many they want to buy and how much they are willing to pay for them. The notes have a face value and are sold at a "discount" to that value. This "discount" reflects the rate of return on the note. A $10,000 note for example may be bid on at $9,900. The "discount" in this case would be $100 or about a ten percent rate of return. At the end of the maturity period, the note can be redeemed at the Treasury for its full face value.

    The Treasury collects all the bids and will sell the notes at whatever "discount" will allow them to sell all of the notes they need to. If there is a lot of interest in the issue, the offer prices will be higher and the rate of return (or interest rate) will be lower. Bidders can include countries, individuals, or say bond traders who may keep or resell the notes once they buy them. The Fed does not participate in the auctions in any way. If the Fed wants to buy some Treasury notes to put more money into circulation, they can purchase T billls on the open market- from other bond holders.

    http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefe...int/fed41.html
    The U.S. Government currently auctions Treasury bills, and notes to finance the public debt.
    Most of the securities are bought by primary dealers which are large securities dealers; a small amount is purchased by individual investors.
    Bids are submitted through Treasury Direct or through depository institutions, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and the Bureau of Public Debt. The Treasury's Bureau of Public Debt and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York offer bidding by computer to institutional investors such as banks, brokers and dealers.
    So what does the Fed do? They try to maintain the money supply. This is not only cash money but also money in banks and elsewhere. They have three basic tools. One is to set the reserve requirements at banks. The reserve requirement is a percent of all the deposits a bank has to have on hand (either in their own vaults or on deposit with the Fed or some combination of those) so that they can reasonable meet normal expected demands for withdrawls. This is extremely rarely used.

    A second tool they have is their "discount rate". This is the rate they charge banks which need to borrow money from the Fed. Often this is overnight lending to balance their books at the end of the day- say a bank issued more loans one day than they had enough in reserves to cover. They then borrow from the Fed (or even another bank) to bring their reserves into balance with their outstanding loans. Raising this rate will reduce the tendency of banks to borrow from them which in turn will reduce the level of lending the banks engage in and thus the money borrowed and being spent in the economy is lower. The Fed can raise their interest rates if they are concerned that inflation is starting to get high. Lowering interest rates has the opposite effect.

    Their third tool is Open Market Operations- which is the direct buying and selling of securities. The Fed has a portfolio of assetts including Treasury notes which then can sell if they want to reduce the money supply or they can buy if they want to increase the money supply.

    This article has more information if anyone is interested. http://money.howstuffworks.com/fed.htm/printable

    The Fed is not paid for by any taxes- it usually takes in revenue which after their expenses is added to the Treasury.

  27. #53
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by MPN View Post
    You do make a convincing point with the medical analogy.

    I apologize for only having 5 posts, I only recently became aware of these forums. You, apparently, had the fortune of finding them at an earlier date than I.

    I did not mean my original comments to devalue your efforts. To take a constructive approach, I would rephrase my original post to suggest that you place some sort of disclaimer at the top to warn people not to take your post as factually flawless.
    Well I apologize for attacking you over your post history.. And Im glad you came here.. If new people dont come here to learn, then this place would have no meaning.

  28. #54
    hi,
    Thanks for sharing the detailed information on the topic.Its is really commendable job by Mike

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by brandonyates View Post
    Good job!

    Only one problem I see with it.

    "(The silver content is always worth the price of 4 gallons of gasoline.) "

    I know what you're trying to say, but this isn't right. Right now you can actually get more like 7 or 8 gallons of gas for an ounce of silver. Last summer you could only get about 3 or 4.
    This discussion reminds me of the Big-Mac index

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    The point of my post is to present the basic fundamentals to the straights out there who have no idea whats going on. The post doesnt get bogged down in every technicality because people need the stuff to be dumbed down for them.
    Unfortunately, sometimes things get dumbed down so much that the people presenting the dumbed-down version lose much credibility. I think Zippyjuan is doing the right thing in explaining the more technical details behind how the Fed + Treasury operates (inasmuch as his explanation is accurate).

    If you don't believe knowledge is a weapon, then feel free to ignore the more accurate explanations and continue wallowing in ignorance and see how far that gets you.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    Brian, I understand. However, if I try to get all technical, Im going to lose the average person out there who is already confused about this stuff.

    I had to dumb it down, and for doing that there are going to be details taken out.
    Getting it plain wrong and "dumbing it down" are two quite different things for me.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    How cash money gets into circulation:
    Treasury prints it, the Fed distributes it to the banks. The Fed does not charge the government for this. The Fed sells it at face value to the banks.
    http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefe...int/fed01.html
    Since the Fed deducts it's "operating expenses" from the money they return to the Treasury, they are indeed charging the government for this. Also, since there is no audit of the fed, the amount they charge is truly unknown.

    If the government needs money, to cover them spending more than they collected in taxes, they notify the Treasury which will determine how much money to raise and they hold an auction for Treasury notes equal to the amount of money they need to rase at that time. Investors who wish to purchase them make a bid of how many they want to buy and how much they are willing to pay for them. The notes have a face value and are sold at a "discount" to that value. This "discount" reflects the rate of return on the note. A $10,000 note for example may be bid on at $9,900. The "discount" in this case would be $100 or about a ten percent rate of return. At the end of the maturity period, the note can be redeemed at the Treasury for its full face value.
    Check your math. I believe $100 against $10,000 is 1%, not 10%.

    The Treasury collects all the bids and will sell the notes at whatever "discount" will allow them to sell all of the notes they need to. If there is a lot of interest in the issue, the offer prices will be higher and the rate of return (or interest rate) will be lower. Bidders can include countries, individuals, or say bond traders who may keep or resell the notes once they buy them. The Fed does not participate in the auctions in any way. If the Fed wants to buy some Treasury notes to put more money into circulation, they can purchase T billls on the open market- from other bond holders
    .

    When the Fed announces in advance of the auction, as they did in March, announcing that they would purchase $500 billion in long term Treasuries, that's not "IF" they want to buy some Treasury notes. Immediately after the announcement, the rates fell.

    At the same time, the Fed announced it would purchase $750 billion in mortgage backed securities. Once again, no info regarding the quality or lack thereof of those securities or any other info for that matter.

    Maybe you can link us to a Fed website that shows where they got the $1.25 trillion and other specifics of those purchases?

    That's not to mention the collusion between the Fed and foreign governments and foreign central banks well in advance of US deficits that precipitate US Treasuries auctions.

    OPEC countries, Japan and China are the top holders of US debt. There are very credible theories as to how that came to be, but again, with no power to audit and no power to review the minutes of the Fed, BS happens.

    The Fed has the power to artificially set interest rates which negates a free market economy and debases the currency...period. The record purchase of T-Notes and MBS is just another way to boot the free market and debase the currency.

    So what does the Fed do? They try to maintain the money supply. This is not only cash money but also money in banks and elsewhere. They have three basic tools. One is to set the reserve requirements at banks. The reserve requirement is a percent of all the deposits a bank has to have on hand (either in their own vaults or on deposit with the Fed or some combination of those) so that they can reasonable meet normal expected demands for withdrawls. This is extremely rarely used.

    A second tool they have is their "discount rate". This is the rate they charge banks which need to borrow money from the Fed. Often this is overnight lending to balance their books at the end of the day- say a bank issued more loans one day than they had enough in reserves to cover. They then borrow from the Fed (or even another bank) to bring their reserves into balance with their outstanding loans. Raising this rate will reduce the tendency of banks to borrow from them which in turn will reduce the level of lending the banks engage in and thus the money borrowed and being spent in the economy is lower. The Fed can raise their interest rates if they are concerned that inflation is starting to get high. Lowering interest rates has the opposite effect.

    Their third tool is Open Market Operations- which is the direct buying and selling of securities. The Fed has a portfolio of assetts including Treasury notes which then can sell if they want to reduce the money supply or they can buy if they want to increase the money supply.

    This article has more information if anyone is interested. http://money.howstuffworks.com/fed.htm/printable
    This is an extremely naive position, to quote the Fed's website and peddle it as the truth. In fact, at the time of this post, the Fed had engaged in unprecedented actions that aren't in this 3-tool tool box.

    Again, since the Fed is 100% secretive, save what they decide to tell us, they are immune from audit and they are immune from oversight, you have no idea what their tools are.

    As mentioned above, the record purchase of MBS and US debt are tools to artificially lower interest rates, no? Why aren't they listed?

    Attempting to correct the OP with Fed advertising propaganda is silly at best.

    The Fed is not paid for by any taxes- it usually takes in revenue which after their expenses is added to the Treasury.
    This is blatant BS. The Fed is most certainly paid in tax dollars. Without the 16th Amendment the Fed would not exist. The idea that the Fed generates income for the government is laughable.

    When you watch TV, do you really believe that Bounty is the "quicker picker upper", or that the 2009 Honda Accord is really "all new", or that if you buy carpeting NOW, the padding is "free"?

    Bosso
    Last edited by Bossobass; 07-06-2009 at 10:52 AM.

  34. #59
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_perez View Post
    Unfortunately, sometimes things get dumbed down so much that the people presenting the dumbed-down version lose much credibility. I think Zippyjuan is doing the right thing in explaining the more technical details behind how the Fed + Treasury operates (inasmuch as his explanation is accurate).

    If you don't believe knowledge is a weapon, then feel free to ignore the more accurate explanations and continue wallowing in ignorance and see how far that gets you.
    I will ignore anything that detracts from the common layman from understanding the sleight-of-hand going on here.

    Your attempt at distraction doesnt fool anybody.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Bossobass View Post
    Since the Fed deducts it's "operating expenses" from the money they return to the Treasury, they are indeed charging the government for this. Also, since there is no audit of the fed, the amount they charge is truly unknown.
    why do they bother reporting or mentioning expenses if they can print money without us ever knowing?

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