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Thread: Why does socialism in Scandinavia work so well?

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  1. #1

    Why does socialism in Scandinavia work so well?

    Is it the low corruption? Homogeneous society? Strong work ethic? But for whatever reason the Scandinavian countries are extremely socialist and extremely successful. I couldn't find any good articles to explain why.



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  3. #2
    define successful?

    how much of the population works to feed the other portion of their society?
    how much of the population works to cloth the other portion of their society?
    How much of their labor do they get to keep?
    Is this socialism forced or is it voluntary?
    Can they sustain theirselves without imports?
    How much opportunity is there to become more than what your parent's were?
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  4. #3
    If you had a block of farmland and you were building a new country, capitalism would work the best

    but if you have a windfall like millions of barrels of oil deposits, dictatorships and socialism can result in a high standard of living, like Norway and Dubai

  5. #4
    I guess it all just depends on how "works so well" is defined, as usual.


  6. #5
    When's the last war they've been in?

    What's the last imperialistic empire they've started?

    How many natural resources are they sitting on?

    Etc, etc...

    Great question, though. I'm sure there are more reasons.
    Last edited by Brassmouth; 01-03-2009 at 11:41 AM.
    Force always attracts men of low morality. – Albert Einstein

    Government is essentially the negation of liberty. – Ludwig von Mises

    The great non-sequitur committed by defenders of the State, including classical Aristotelian and Thomist philosophers, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State. - Murray N. Rothbard

  7. #6
    Just the fact that they are overt socialists and not covert socialists helps to establish ground rules that the citizenry understand and adjust behavior accordingly.

    In the US system of corporate socialism, the citizens are sold on the argument that "free markets" exist and attempt to behave as if we are in a free market when in fact we are as far from a free market as has ever been in modern history. This then leads to schizophrenic behavior on the part of the citizenry (ie- the usage of prescribed psychotropic drug use for most working adults).

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by wd4freedom View Post
    Just the fact that they are overt socialists and not covert socialists helps to establish ground rules that the citizenry understand and adjust behavior accordingly.

    In the US system of corporate socialism, the citizens are sold on the argument that "free markets" exist and attempt to behave as if we are in a free market when in fact we are as far from a free market as has ever been in modern history. This then leads to schizophrenic behavior on the part of the citizenry (ie- the usage of prescribed psychotropic drug use for most working adults).
    Excellent observation. May I quote you on my blog? What you describe is truly Orwellian and unfortunately very true.

    I've been thinking something similar over the past couple of days. Why do we keep pretending this is (or was) a free market economy? With the ever growing list of industries begging for bailouts, why doesn't the gov't just be honest about it and admit that the US is rapidly becoming a socialist nation?

    Admitting the truth would at least relieve the continuous headache many of us have from reading and hearing all the doublespeak in the MSM.
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ShowMeLiberty View Post
    Excellent observation. May I quote you on my blog? What you describe is truly Orwellian and unfortunately very true.

    I've been thinking something similar over the past couple of days. Why do we keep pretending this is (or was) a free market economy? With the ever growing list of industries begging for bailouts, why doesn't the gov't just be honest about it and admit that the US is rapidly becoming a socialist nation?

    Admitting the truth would at least relieve the continuous headache many of us have from reading and hearing all the doublespeak in the MSM.
    "Socialism in America will come through the ballot box."
    by: Gus Hall
    [Arvo Gustav Halberg ] (1910-2000) leader of the Communist Party USA and its four-time U.S. presidential candidate
    Source: in an interview with the Cleveland Plain-Dealer (1996)



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  11. #9
    It's not an outright socialist part of the world. Its economies are mixed, let's get that straight people!

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulitician View Post
    It's not an outright socialist part of the world. Its economies are mixed, let's get that straight people!
    Heeeeeey.... When did you start discussing politics with my family?!

  13. #11
    Their societies are successful in the sense of being stable and predictable, with low growth rates but also few market corrections. I saw a statistic that the average unemployed Sweded spends seven minutes a day looking for a job; they tolerate that because a Swede is a Swede, but the United States is too vast and heterogeneous for Americans not to feel swindled bankrolling that sort of sloth.

  14. #12
    "Democracy is the road to socialism." -- Karl Marx

    "Democracy is indispensable to socialism." -- Vladimir Lenin

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by synth_floyd View Post
    Is it the low corruption? Homogeneous society? Strong work ethic? But for whatever reason the Scandinavian countries are extremely socialist and extremely successful. I couldn't find any good articles to explain why.
    Read the chapter "Good Socialism" in PJ O'Rourke's book Eat The Rich.

    It's probably the best explanation I've ever read on why Swedish socialism "works" so well, for now.

    Quick thumbnail, it's cultural.

    The Swedes have a word, lagom, roughly meaning, "that's good, just enough, no more, thanks".

    They look for and aspire to be "OK", nothing more.

    In a small, homogeneous society, where extravagance is frowned upon and nobody wants or needs to do any better than "just OK", and one with plenty of natural resources, they make it work.

    Especially if they don't mind or care that anything past just enough is taken by government.

    Again, for now. The demographics and spending are catching up them though, they are looking at the same economic collapse that we are.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  16. #14
    Socialism in Scandinavia? What are you talking about?

    Denmark has more business freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and labor freedom than the U.S. while having comparable trade freedom, monetary freedom, and property rights to the U.S.

    Sweden has more business freedom and freedom from corruption than the United States while having comparable trade freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and property rights to the U.S.

    Norway is not nearly as successful as Sweden or Denmark despite its great natural resources, and thus is not used by social democracts as a good example of social democracy. But when it is used, it is useful to point out that Norway has greater freedom from corruption while having comparable property rights, business freedom, and trade freedom to the United States.

    Just use the Heritage Index of Economic Freedom.

  17. #15
    What you posted is less an indication of how well Scandinavia is doing and more an indication of how $#@!ed up we have become.

    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju View Post
    Socialism in Scandinavia? What are you talking about?

    Denmark has more business freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and labor freedom than the U.S. while having comparable trade freedom, monetary freedom, and property rights to the U.S.

    Sweden has more business freedom and freedom from corruption than the United States while having comparable trade freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and property rights to the U.S.

    Norway is not nearly as successful as Sweden or Denmark despite its great natural resources, and thus is not used by social democracts as a good example of social democracy. But when it is used, it is useful to point out that Norway has greater freedom from corruption while having comparable property rights, business freedom, and trade freedom to the United States.

    Just use the Heritage Index of Economic Freedom.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  18. #16
    Really guys, regulation is a bigger harm for an economy than taxation. This is why even heavily taxed but deregulated economies like those of Sweden and Denmark do so well compared to the U.S.:

    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju View Post
    Socialism in Scandinavia? What are you talking about?

    Denmark has more business freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and labor freedom than the U.S. while having comparable trade freedom, monetary freedom, and property rights to the U.S.

    Sweden has more business freedom and freedom from corruption than the United States while having comparable trade freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and property rights to the U.S.

    Norway is not nearly as successful as Sweden or Denmark despite its great natural resources, and thus is not used by social democracts as a good example of social democracy. But when it is used, it is useful to point out that Norway has greater freedom from corruption while having comparable property rights, business freedom, and trade freedom to the United States.

    Just use the Heritage Index of Economic Freedom.



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  20. #17
    Can't argue with that.

    How many pages is the Federal Register and CFRs up to now?

    Do I even want to look?

    Imagine a free society with little or no regulation and little or no taxation.

    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju View Post
    Really guys, regulation is a bigger harm for an economy than taxation. This is why even heavily taxed but deregulated economies like those of Sweden and Denmark do so well compared to the U.S.:
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju View Post
    Really guys, regulation is a bigger harm for an economy than taxation. This is why even heavily taxed but deregulated economies like those of Sweden and Denmark do so well compared to the U.S.:
    Hence Ronald Reagan saying:

    "The philosophy of government is, if it moves, tax it, if it keeps moving, regulate it, and if it stops moving, subsidize it." To paraphrase, that is.
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  22. #19
    I'm getting a little off topic here but by chance I found an interview today with a Swiss banker, Ferdinand Lips, who advocates the return of the gold standard:
    http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials...nfo061805.html
    http://www.fame.org/goldwars.htm
    I believe that gold will already rise gradually in the forefront of a big financial collapse and then explode to the upside. I justify my perception with the fact that we live in a time today where the broad public begins to see slowly but surely. The trust in our paper money system is shrinking virtually daily. Gold is the only currency on which no debts are linked to. I wish that one day we all will live with a new and healthy currency system in which gold again is anchored as a solid fundament.

    Interview also mentions an attempt by Mexico to reintroduce silver as money, which was blocked

  23. #20
    I have my own theories on socialism in Scandinavia. As a gross generalization, I would say that the form of "government" (whether it be any one or mix of democracy, monarchy, oligarchy, plutocracy, capitalism, socialism, communism, anarchism, theocracy, etc.) is less important than the morals and standards of the people as a whole. Certainly the political and economic systems have some effect, but "bad" people will ruin any system, and "bad" people exist in every system. When they reach a critical mass, it brings down everyone.

    A society of self-sufficient and honest people will tend to have a "better" society, no matter what the system.

    In most cases, we do not have enough self-sufficient and honest people. And because of this, the system which intrudes least (with the least power) is best, if for no other reason than political systems are so easily corrupted for the advantage of a corrupt few.

    I had a couple of posts related to this:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173180

    We have had two threads going that are related: the role of "greed" in society and "standard of living" (in Denmark).

    First, let's make a distinction between "greed" and "self-interest". For this theory, I will use the Wikipedia definition of greed: "Greed is the selfish desire for the pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others. It is generally considered a vice, and is one of the seven deadly sins in Catholicism."

    Let's just assume that healthy "self-interest" is universal. It's not good or bad, it just is.

    It seems that lack of "greed" is what defines the "better standard of living" societies like Denmark, while excess "greed" defines the worst "standard of living" societies such as Zimbabwe.

    Socialism combined with greed never works. Socialism on a large scale never works. Socialism is collectivism, with the people who propose or control it looking to take advantage of others.

    In cases like Denmark, it may work to a certain extent because the culture generally dislikes greed, and will naturally limit the amount of greed wherever it occurs in their society.

    On the other hand, the United Stated has gone a long way in the past 50 years in moving from "self-interest" to a "greed" oriented culture. Thus we are moving from the type of society of Denmark, towards the type of Zimbabwe.

    And our socialism will continue to grow, as socialism is generally a device used by the greedy. The poor are like the suckers of a ponzi scheme who believe that they will gain from socialism, and the elite plutocracy are the greedy ones who know that they will benefit. And both of those groups feel justified in their opinions by the greed of overpaid hedge fund managers, CEO's and Wall St...

    Bottom line: Greed and the perception of excess greed are a good counter-indicator of a society's standard of living (and happiness if you like). And the US is going in the wrong direction. Greed is detroying us.
    Another thought on greed in a society:

    Would anyone in Denmark put poison in baby formula and pet food?

    The fact that Socialism/Communism and Capitalism work together so well in China is interesting...they can easily embrace both, yet China is never on the top of a list of countries with a great standard of living...but they might be rated high on the "greed" factor.

  24. #21
    Yeah but those countries all have tax rates that are ~50%, right? Free education, free health care, pension plans, etc. Maybe they just run it very well? France is pretty socialist but they haven't done as well. They also had a foreign empire, not homogenous society and some other factors though.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by synth_floyd View Post
    Yeah but those countries all have tax rates that are ~50%, right? Free education, free health care, pension plans, etc. Maybe they just run it very well? France is pretty socialist but they haven't done as well. They also had a foreign empire, not homogenous society and some other factors though.
    Its not free.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  26. #23
    They are homogeneous societies, with less than a trickle of in migration. Norway isn't an EU member.

    Norway's socialism is democratic. The people vote for the taxes in exchange for contractual services, it isn't quite as authoritarian as Sweden.

    Considered a Scandanavian country, the Netherlands has a truly authoritarian stance.

    The problem with the Heritage rankings is that there is heavy weighting for investment as an indicator of strong free market and no measurement for forced, non-representative taxation. Many Scandinavian countries allow open investment, most any country will take capitol...But they always seem to be in a budget balancing crisis, with very little room for growth.

  27. #24
    Maybe it has to do with the size of the country. Many European countries are smaller than most US states (albeit with greater populations) so it's easier for their governments to implement socialized programs better suited to their people. It's akin to Texas or Illinois or Michigan having their own socialized health care programs, which they do to the extent that they need it and it's cost effective and not bloated and wasteful.

    Then again, European countries have to submit to a higher power, the EU, so maybe my argument is weak.



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  29. #25
    Socialism working ? Never works for long..

    Life's not so great in Sweden according to a couple I met over the holidays. Past Muslim immigration is starting to cause major issues. The way the wife spoke , it sounded like the Ponzi scheme was crashing. Human nature and the moral hazard has always crashes socialistic societies.


    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1205...n_commentaries

    Article excerpt....

    "Why should one start a business?" they asked. [...]Especially for immigrants, the first signal from Swedish society is not that you ought to work, let alone become self-employed. The message is that the state will take care of you.


    BTW, there's plenty of regulation, in addition to taxes, in Sweden.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by raystone View Post
    there's plenty of regulation, in addition to taxes, in Sweden.
    Less investment, business, and financial regulation.

  31. #27
    I remember a while ago a swedish guy posted a huge rant about how sweden isn't so great as the lefties make it out to be and had a huge list of everything that was wrong with it. i will try to find it.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by canadian4ronpaul View Post
    I remember a while ago a swedish guy posted a huge rant about how sweden isn't so great as the lefties make it out to be and had a huge list of everything that was wrong with it. i will try to find it.
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  33. #29

  34. #30
    Didn't we have a Swedish member of this forum say how things are messed up in Sweden and their health care system has its problems too?
    "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

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