That's his argument. He's saying I don't care about people so I explained that we care for people the most because government makes it worse for poor people, etc.
Anything else I can say to him?
Government creates poor people. I'm poor people.
Government benefits the wealthy and well-connected at the expense of the poor and disenfranchised. Until he comes to realize this historical fact there is not much more that can be said.
give him a book to read
Tell him if he's worried about poor people, you'll be happy to take his paycheck and spread it around to help those in need. If he objects, tell him he doesn't care about poor people.
Make them put their money where their mouth is (literally). Works every time.
"They [the Soviets] intend...to induce the Americans to adopt their own 'restructuring' and convergence of the Soviet and American systems ... Convergence will be accompanied by blood baths and political re-education camps in Western Europe and the United States. The Soviet strategists are counting on an economic depression in the United States and intend to introduce their reformed model of socialism with a human face as an alternative to the American system during the depression."Anatoliy Golitsyn The Perestroika Deception 1990
i promise you that wont work everytime, especially with this guyOriginally Posted by ihsv
anyway, i said most of the things in this thread already =)
he's kind of like a class clown kinda person... his facebook message said that obama isnt a real socilaist
he calls himself 70% socialist, 30% libertarian... o...k...
why bother with him?
Have him talk to a Russian American that was in Russia during the cold war.
"These photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib"- Obama
So the torture pictures need to be sensation before they are released?
Explain to them the concept of charity.
Well, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. At some point you may have to just shake the dust off your feet and move on.i promise you that wont work everytime, especially with this guy
anyway, i said most of the things in this thread already =)
he's kind of like a class clown kinda person... his facebook message said that obama isnt a real socilaist
he calls himself 70% socialist, 30% libertarian... o...k...
"They [the Soviets] intend...to induce the Americans to adopt their own 'restructuring' and convergence of the Soviet and American systems ... Convergence will be accompanied by blood baths and political re-education camps in Western Europe and the United States. The Soviet strategists are counting on an economic depression in the United States and intend to introduce their reformed model of socialism with a human face as an alternative to the American system during the depression."Anatoliy Golitsyn The Perestroika Deception 1990
yup, did that too
i get him to agree with me a lot too... but whatever... hes probably not anywhere near as serious about these things as we are
When you subsidize something, you get more of it. Government subsidizes poverty by throwing money at it. We get more poverty.
Also, go ask the five million Ukrainians how socialism worked out for them. Oh wait, you can't; they're all dead.
Page 76 and 77 of Revolution: A Manifesto
Last edited by dannno; 11-05-2008 at 12:54 PM.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
Poor people don't care about poor people, including me. lol
Explain to him that economic freedom brings people out of poverty. There's not a single country in history that has a free markets and a high percentage of people in poverty. But there is an endless list of countries where they have big socialist governments that are out to help the poor that have massive amounts of people living in poverty. Not just places that have dictators. Some of these places have democracy too. Look at India, China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, etc. Go to nationmaster.com and show him the statistics. If you add up all the money the US spends on reducing poverty, it amounts to $40,000 per poor person. They would do better to just give them the money.
Maybe you can also use the example of child labor. So before countries industrialized, parents would send their children off to work. Not because businesses were unethical and luring children into these jobs but because families would starve to death if they didn't make their children work. Then, as the economy grew, people started earning more real wealth and suddenly parents could afford the luxury of sending their kids to school instead of work. Governments didn't end child labor and lift people out of poverty. There are plenty of examples in places like Africa where child labor is against the law but they work illegally because if they don't, they will starve to death.
Last edited by ShannonOBrien; 11-05-2008 at 12:52 PM.
+!
Pearls before swine...
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Stop dreaming of what YOU can do - just do it
I would think the obvious answer would be to get as many hearts and minds over to our cause as possible.
What does that mean??
I get a much higher percentage of leftist leaning people interested in Ron Paul than republicans.
All you have to do is show them page 76 and 77 of Revolution: A Manifesto and tell them that he wants to bring our troops home from over 130 countries that we currently occupy and that he wants to end the war on drugs. It's in the bag.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
Say what the greats have said before.
"Capitalism is the unequal sharing of prosperity. Socialism is the equal spread of misery."
-Winston Churchill
Also you can say what I usually say when somebody asks why I don't want "free" healthcare.
I reply, "I would rather be able to have a job in a free market economy to be able to pay for what I need, including healthcare, then to have it given to me by the government."
I continue, "There is also nothing 'free' about healthcare. If you choose to have 'free' healthcare, you're still going to be spending money for it. The difference is that you will be forced to spend your money (through taxes) into a healthcare system run by the f'ing bloated inefficient government, rather than you choosing your own insurance plan and doctors."
I also would add, "By the way, it is a myth that 'free' healthcare does not exist for the poor. It already exists. Universal healthcare will essentially require even those who can afford healthcare to have the same, government-run care."
"Even if there is a 2 tiered system, the private companies even if they are efficient and well-run, cannot compete with a crappy government entity, since that government run entity can be as bloated and inefficient a it wants and just asks Congress for more taxpayer money."
That's what I usually say and people are speechless. BTW, there really is 'free' healthcare for the poor to anybody who wants it. This fact seems lost to many.
Yep, just cite Hipocratic oath.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
Doctors don't take that oath anymore, do they? I thought they stopped doing that... maybe I'm wrong.
"They [the Soviets] intend...to induce the Americans to adopt their own 'restructuring' and convergence of the Soviet and American systems ... Convergence will be accompanied by blood baths and political re-education camps in Western Europe and the United States. The Soviet strategists are counting on an economic depression in the United States and intend to introduce their reformed model of socialism with a human face as an alternative to the American system during the depression."Anatoliy Golitsyn The Perestroika Deception 1990
Poor people create poor people. It's statistically proven over and over again.
This is the most infuriating economic argument around, and I'm sorry you have to deal with someone arguing something so naive and ridiculous...there are no economic policies that would help the working poor more than libertarian policies. I'm too worn out to elaborate at length, but if I were you, I'd develop arguments around the following basic points:
- Inflationary monetary policies hurt the middle class and poor people more than anybody else, because they discourage savings, encourage borrowing and spending, water down the buying power of every saved dollar, and make prices rise much faster than wages in a way that wages cannot keep up.
- The economy is not a zero sum game, and there's not some fixed amount of wealth. The more efficient the economy is at producing the most goods and services for the cheapest, the more there will be to go around in the first place.
- Following from that, read up on why central planning and redistribution makes markets more inefficient, leading to much less wealth to go around the more and more central planning and redistribution are used.
- It's really naive to think that business regulations are a net positive for poor people, small business, and the working class. Here's one of my better posts on explaining why: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpos...4&postcount=26
Does he not think it suspicious that candidates like Obama - supporting "the poor people" and universal health care - are given soooo much damn money from corrupt financial companies like Goldman Sachs and from the pharmaceutical industry?
- Look at all of the bigass financial companies supporting Obama! Do some names not ring a bell from the bailout? Recall that bailout recipients are spending a lot of that money on mergers, acquisitions, employee bonuses, and golden parachutes, rather than what it was "supposedly" intended for - loosening up credit to "help Main Street."
- Now, in comparison, look at their contributions to John McCain, who is himself a corporate fascist! Notice also that all 20 of Obama's top contributors gave him more money than McCain's #1 contributor gave him.
- Now check out the contributions from big pharma. That chart is from January. Check out the more recent list of who the pharmaceutical industry gave their money to. The universal health care proponents sure raised a whole $#@! ton of money by the end, didn't they? Obama raised more than twice as much from big pharma than John McCain, and he raised almost twice as much as Hillary - who still raised more than John McCain, despite the fact that she didn't even make it to the general election. John McCain in turn raised way more than any of the other Republicans.
There's a reason for this. Your friend has been misled by the corrupt, who benefit more than any others from centralized and socialized systems, and he's been duped about the true purpose of liberal and socialist economic policies. He's been misled into thinking we've been a "free market," when we really have not...we've been a corporatist market, which is very different from free market capitalism, and we're now moving into more firmly established socialism or national socialism...which will only make things worse in the long run. The corporate elite want people thinking along one of two lines: Either the way he's thinking, or the way that Faux News Republicans tend to think (you know, the ones who are oblivious to the wealth gap, corporate welfare, etc., and who support John McCain and George Bush's fascist version of the "free market"). He's been herded into controlled opposition...or really, I think it's actually the Faux News Republicans that have been herded into controlled opposition. After all, they were fooled into believing in a fake and heavily manipulated fascist version of the free market that is so indefensible and broken that the obvious and predictable reactionary movement of others would be towards full-blown socialism.
Last edited by Mini-Me; 11-05-2008 at 01:50 PM.
Yes, starting with the receptive ones FIRST!!
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Stop dreaming of what YOU can do - just do it
If somebody debates you on the topic, that doesn't neccessarily make them un-receptive. Un-receptive means they don't want to listen to you at all.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
They still do it, or at least they did 5 years ago when I took a debate/logic class.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
Socialism makes everyone poor eventually by removing the incentive to be successful.
Ex: If Homeowner A can't afford is mortgage anymore and is bailed out by Homeowner B, what reason does Homeowner B have to pay his own mortgage?
END THE STATE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aISm7IJosMU
Dammit, meant to edit, and my browser screwed up and kicked me into a double-post :/
Wow. That's some page. I'm not a gun owner ... but that's as clear an example as I have ever read as to why people should be allowed to own ANY type of gun and not worry about registration.
Since you are talking about "poor" people, we'll assume we are talking about some sort of government handout. Handouts drain people's motivation. It drains their sense of pride. Handouts do the opposite of what is intended. It makes them dependent and weak, instead of making them stronger. You can't grow muscle if you are carried around like an invalid. You won't value anything if everything is just given to you.
And many politicians want people to be dependent on them. It increases their personal power, and saps that power from the "poor" people you are trying to help.
If you are a parent, how do you want to raise and motivate your children? Just give them money forever? Have them live in your basement?
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