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Thread: Secession thread.

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by libertarian4321 View Post
    Some people say Ron Paul people are "kooks"- its threads like this that make them thing we are "kooks."

    BTW, "secession" has been tried before. Resulted in something called the Civil War.

    As I recall, it ended badly for the secessionists.

    So I pose this question to you. Lets say, for the sake of argument, you get the entire state of Colorado (or whatever) to agree to secede.

    How do you plan to defeat the most powerful military in the world which will arrive in less than 24 hours, armed to the teeth, and ready to quell the "secession."?
    Ding ding! We have a winner. This is why I think agorism is the only mechanism to beat the State, show a profit, and have our network of trading partners established when the State ultimately collapses.

    Trying to reform the State through the political process will take years, if at all possible, as the flaw in that is that you are asking the State to help you with the implementation.

    You can start agorism TODAY.
    My Blog: http://gilliganscorner.wordpress.com/

    Libertarians believe consenting adults have the right to do whatever they want except band together. - Emo Phillips



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by libertarian4321 View Post
    Some people say Ron Paul people are "kooks"- its threads like this that make them thing we are "kooks."

    BTW, "secession" has been tried before. Resulted in something called the Civil War.

    As I recall, it ended badly for the secessionists.

    So I pose this question to you. Lets say, for the sake of argument, you get the entire state of Colorado (or whatever) to agree to secede.

    How do you plan to defeat the most powerful military in the world which will arrive in less than 24 hours, armed to the teeth, and ready to quell the "secession."?
    I don't think that getting an entire state to secede is a good idea or one that would work. Lots of people who don't want to secede would be stuck in a state that is seceding and that is no good.

    I'm not sure how it would work, but a thread to talk about freedom ideals-such as secession-is just here to stimulate minds and grow ideas.

    Personally, I think there are some small places such as national forests and national parks that could be essentially claimed. You'd end up in jail and it wouldn't be so easy as just trying to reverse imminent domain upon the government, but if you had a fair number of people and a plan to begin a new community, then perhaps under the right circumstances it could grow into a peaceful coup. NOT likely, but unless ideas are shared and communicated then it REALLY isn't likely.

    I favor the idea of a small island so that borders are definable and so that you aren't literally surrounded by the US.

    Small island, a few houses, enough solar panels to allow comfortable living, and it wouldn't really be that difficult until you all stopped paying your taxes and declared yourselves free. It is a move that could garner local support from the nearest communities and perhaps begin to spread.

    Is any of this likely? No. But hey, it can't hurt to talk and people have called me kooky for years, but I still like to feel like I have some freedom and I enjoy the company of those who can discuss it with me.
    "Liberty is always freedom from the government" -Ludwig Von Mises


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  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by The Machine View Post
    What's up with all the New Hampshire talk? The "Live Free or Die" state went big time for a socialist president...last place I would want to be, especially if actions speak louder than words. Another thing, you better bring a boat load of money, because it isn't a cheap place to live.

    I think secession should be more of a state of mind, rather than a geographic location. Read "I'm Not A Number" by Clair Wolfe to understand what I'm talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Machine View Post
    Obviously you never read the book I referenced nor do you seem to know about Claire Wolfe's other writings.

    Basically it depends on how much you are willing to restructure your lifestyle. Self-sufficiency, bartering, self-employment, etc...these are the tools of a lifestyle of freedom and liberty in our system at this time--and can be done in a lot of places other than New Hampshire, Colorado, Montana, or the ocean.

    I'm not against the ideas mentioned in this thread; just offering another alternative for folks that might not have the interest or means to physically relocate to another state or area.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Machine View Post
    No problem...I think a lot of folks are on "edge" right now due to this historical BS. Yes to your questions. She believes that we should ignore and turn away from the government that has enslaved us. I think the book is out of print now--maybe a copy can be found at Amazon or the internet--but I consider it essential reading for liberty minded people.

    I live in a remote part of Appalachia and I personally know people who have lived "under the radar" for years...the government doesn't even know they exist. There are a lot of remote areas in the country where this can be done. The problem is, most people don't or won't have the stomach for it. It requires a major paradigm shift from the way most folks live, but it can--and is--being done by more people than you would think.

    Good luck on your journey wherever it takes you!
    It's funny how things seem to go in a circle...I just didn't call it agorism
    Expressly Reserving All Liberties
    Grassroots Volunteer: RWVA

  5. #94
    I'll take secession from the oppressive state. A police state won't ask permission, and technology won't permit anyone to hide for very long. Regardless, everyone should be as self-sufficient as possible as a matter of lifestyle, but ...
    Last edited by tpreitzel; 11-06-2008 at 09:51 PM.

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by tpreitzel View Post
    No thanks! I'll take secession from the oppressive state. A police state won't ask permission, and technology won't permit anyone to hide for very long.
    Are you referring to agorism? While I would totally support a grandiose secession scheme; I'm personally taking the immediate, practical approach of disassociation from the "system".

    With all the technology at the military's disposal, why were Afghan rebels still able to move about undetected? I'll give you a hint...it has something to do with sheep.
    Expressly Reserving All Liberties
    Grassroots Volunteer: RWVA

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by tpreitzel View Post
    I'll take secession from the oppressive state. A police state won't ask permission, and technology won't permit anyone to hide for very long. Regardless, everyone should be as self-sufficient as possible as a matter of lifestyle, but ...
    Nobody does it, though! When I was a kid, I thought adults were all independent and intelligent. Then I learned about the welfare state, and that illusion was shattered forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  9. #97
    Ok the thread here is 10 pages long, so forgive me for not reading it lol.

    Do you ever wonder why we didn't get world government right after world war 1 or 2? The simple, ultimate answer is.... the South.

    Take a look at electoral maps on wikipedia, and you will find for the entire history of the country, at least 3/4 of the time, the southern states have voted for the small government presidential candidate. We would have total world government by now if it was not for the South slowing the progresss consistently through history.

    I don't get why talk about picking some state always ends up with seemingly random states like Montana, Alaska, or even Colorado or New Hampshire, both states that are going to liberal big government politicians now. Montana is completely pointless for a state to try to secede with because the Western states for the most part simply aren't that against the drift of American politics. Sometimes they side towards conservative government, sometimes they split like this election, and sometimes they side with big government, but the western states are not one way or the other. Alaska has potential to secede, and already has a movement going on, which Sarah Palin was a part of, who many of you mock because the media has convinced you she's stupid, (they do that because she's not corrupt), so Alaska could be a decent choice for secession but not a great one. Colorado is not a good choice because Colorado is not all that conservative or libertarian at all from the recent voting it has done. It is also smack inside America with tons of states surrounding it, so even if the people in it wanted to secede it would be hard to make it happen. And New Hampshire is a joke, the North-eastern states have been voting for big government politicians for like forever, believe in it, and are not discontented with whats happening enough to secede.

    The South is the cradle of liberty for the world right now because it is the only thing that has slowed down the tide of big government, one-world government politicians in the history of our country.

    The South seceded before already! Anyone remember the Confederate States of America? And guess what? People here keep mentioning secession again because of this election! So what place is ready to secede? The South! Look at an electoral map, and you will see the divide between the South and the rest of the country; the South believes in the kind of government we believe in.

    If you want secession from the government, you must go to the area where people live that disagree with the government. The Southern people have disagreed with the government through our entire history, and do now more than they have in quite awhile. The South wants very little government unlike the rest of the country. The most conservative, anti-government presidential candidate can ALWAYS count on SOUTH CAROLINA to go to them. ALWAYS.

    South Carolina is the ONLY state you could possibly pull off a successful secessionist movement in, and then it would result in a blood-bath too, and it would probably fail as well. But thats the only way it could possibly happen, maaaaaaayyybbee Alaska by a very, very small chance, but I'm doubtful about Alaska seceding.
    Last edited by justinc.1089; 11-06-2008 at 10:02 PM.
    I GOT MY BUSINESS MANAGEMENT SCIENCE DEGREE IN MY HANDS AND RAN!!!!!!! THEY'RE NEVER GETTING IT BACK!!!!!!!!!


    "It is dissent from government policies that defines the true patriot and champion of liberty."

    - Ron Paul

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by justinc.1089 View Post
    Ok the thread here is 10 pages long, so forgive me for not reading it lol.

    Do you ever wonder why we didn't get world government right after world war 1 or 2? The simple, ultimate answer is.... the South.

    Take a look at electoral maps on wikipedia, and you will find for the entire history of the country, at least 3/4 of the time, the southern states have voted for the small government presidential candidate. We would have total world government by now if it was not for the South slowing the progresss consistently through history.

    I don't get why talk about picking some state always ends up with seemingly random states like Montana, Alaska, or even Colorado or New Hampshire, both states that are going to liberal big government politicians now. Montana is completely pointless for a state to try to secede with because the Western states for the most part simply aren't that against the drift of American politics. Sometimes they side towards conservative government, sometimes they split like this election, and sometimes they side with big government, but the western states are not one way or the other. Alaska has potential to secede, and already has a movement going on, which Sarah Palin was a part of, who many of you mock because the media has convinced you she's stupid, (they do that because she's not corrupt), so Alaska could be a decent choice for secession but not a great one. Colorado is not a good choice because Colorado is not all that conservative or libertarian at all from the recent voting it has done. It is also smack inside America with tons of states surrounding it, so even if the people in it wanted to secede it would be hard to make it happen. And New Hampshire is a joke, the North-eastern states have been voting for big government politicians for like forever, believe in it, and are not discontented with whats happening enough to secede.

    The South is the cradle of liberty for the world right now because it is the only thing that has slowed down the tide of big government, one-world government politicians in the history of our country.

    The South seceded before already! Anyone remember the Confederate States of America? And guess what? People here keep mentioning secession again because of this election! So what place is ready to secede? The South! Look at an electoral map, and you will see the divide between the South and the rest of the country; the South believes in the kind of government we believe in.

    If you want secession from the government, you must go to the area where people live that disagree with the government. The Southern people have disagreed with the government through our entire history, and do now more than they have in quite awhile. The South wants very little government unlike the rest of the country. The most conservative, anti-government presidential candidate can ALWAYS count on SOUTH CAROLINA to go to them. ALWAYS.

    South Carolina is the ONLY state you could possibly pull off a successful secessionist movement in, and then it would result in a blood-bath too, and it would probably fail as well. But thats the only way it could possibly happen, maaaaaaayyybbee Alaska by a very, very small chance, but I'm doubtful about Alaska seceding.
    Personally, I think you should read through this thread. Your heart is in the right place, however...just a tad late for a southern state to secede IMO. I'd love to be wrong, though.

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by libertarian4321 View Post
    Some people say Ron Paul people are "kooks"- its threads like this that make them thing we are "kooks."

    BTW, "secession" has been tried before. Resulted in something called the Civil War.

    As I recall, it ended badly for the secessionists.

    So I pose this question to you. Lets say, for the sake of argument, you get the entire state of Colorado (or whatever) to agree to secede.

    How do you plan to defeat the most powerful military in the world which will arrive in less than 24 hours, armed to the teeth, and ready to quell the "secession."?

    That was because of the disgusting federalists. A lot of southerners wanted to own slaves, and there was strong opposition towards these states, so they left. Slaves were a huge part of the South's economy, and the work was done by slaves. I understand there were more reasons(like protectionism) ,but it was a good reason. We are wanting to secede because of the way our government is heading. Besides, why would the rest of the United States want us? SO they can exploit our wealth so the bureaucrats can spend it wastefully? We keep trying to change the government, but our fascist media keeps brainwashing the people. A lot of the people were stupid to begin with, but still. If these deficits, trade deficits, nationalization of the financial markets(who knows what else can be nationalized even more, education?! ). We will go out peacefully, most of our liberty candidates lost, badly. The LP only got .40% of the vote(Around that margin,I believe) So we have to work our ass off, again. The people distrust the GOP(who wouldn't?). I don't think they'll give us another chance. The only modern third party canidate the sheep know of is probably Nader.

    I don't care if this is a defeatist attitude, I can't stand this. I'm leaving, and I encourage you all to join.
    Last edited by The_Orlonater; 11-07-2008 at 11:15 PM.
    "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

    Damn proud Classical Liberal/Minarchist!

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Orlonater View Post
    That was because of the disgusting federalists. A lot of southerners wanted to own slaves, and there was strong opposition towards these states, so they left. Slaves were a huge part of the South's economy, and the work was done by slaves. I understand there were more reasons(like protectionism) ,but it was a good reason. We are wanting to secede because of the way our government is heading. Besides, why would the rest of the United States want us? SO they can exploit our wealth so the bureaucrats can spend it wastefully? We keep trying to change the government, but our fascist media keeps brainwashing the people. A lot of the people were stupid to being with, but still. If these deficits, trade deficits, nationalization of the financial markets(who knows what else can be nationalized even more, education?! ). We will go out peacefully, most of our liberty candidates lost, badly. The LP only got .40% of the vote(Around that margin,I believe) So we have to work our ass off, again. The people distrust the GOP(who wouldn't?). I don't think they'll give us another chance. The only modern third party canidate the sheep know of is probably Nader.

    I don't care if this is a defeatist attitude, I can't stand this. I'm leaving, and I encourage you all to join.
    Slavery was one of a few major reasons the South left. The idea of the civil war being fought over only slavery is a myth that comes from the North. Sorry if you're from the North but its true, it wasn't only over slavery.

    Another thing too, the South was an extremely big portion of the taxes going into the federal government at the time, so do you think the politicians really, truly wanted an end to slavery in the North? They didn't, they were using it for political gain since there was an anti-slavery movement in the North.
    I GOT MY BUSINESS MANAGEMENT SCIENCE DEGREE IN MY HANDS AND RAN!!!!!!! THEY'RE NEVER GETTING IT BACK!!!!!!!!!


    "It is dissent from government policies that defines the true patriot and champion of liberty."

    - Ron Paul

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by boethius27 View Post
    I don't think that getting an entire state to secede is a good idea or one that would work. Lots of people who don't want to secede would be stuck in a state that is seceding and that is no good.

    When the American revolution started, only 10% of the population was for a revolution. Later once it got going more of the population joined once they saw the British killing their fellow Americans.

    I'm not sure how it would work, but a thread to talk about freedom ideals-such as secession-is just here to stimulate minds and grow ideas.

    Personally, I think there are some small places such as national forests and national parks that could be essentially claimed. You'd end up in jail and it wouldn't be so easy as just trying to reverse imminent domain upon the government, but if you had a fair number of people and a plan to begin a new community, then perhaps under the right circumstances it could grow into a peaceful coup. NOT likely, but unless ideas are shared and communicated then it REALLY isn't likely.

    Just like Native Americans keep trying? That worked out great for them so far.

    I favor the idea of a small island so that borders are definable and so that you aren't literally surrounded by the US.

    Borders would be easy to define, but having ocean around you really isn't too much better than land since we have such a powerful navy and all.

    Small island, a few houses, enough solar panels to allow comfortable living, and it wouldn't really be that difficult until you all stopped paying your taxes and declared yourselves free. It is a move that could garner local support from the nearest communities and perhaps begin to spread.

    Is any of this likely? No. But hey, it can't hurt to talk and people have called me kooky for years, but I still like to feel like I have some freedom and I enjoy the company of those who can discuss it with me.
    Same here.
    I GOT MY BUSINESS MANAGEMENT SCIENCE DEGREE IN MY HANDS AND RAN!!!!!!! THEY'RE NEVER GETTING IT BACK!!!!!!!!!


    "It is dissent from government policies that defines the true patriot and champion of liberty."

    - Ron Paul

  14. #102
    I GOT MY BUSINESS MANAGEMENT SCIENCE DEGREE IN MY HANDS AND RAN!!!!!!! THEY'RE NEVER GETTING IT BACK!!!!!!!!!


    "It is dissent from government policies that defines the true patriot and champion of liberty."

    - Ron Paul

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by justinc.1089 View Post
    Slavery was one of a few major reasons the South left. The idea of the civil war being fought over only slavery is a myth that comes from the North. Sorry if you're from the North but its true, it wasn't only over slavery.

    Another thing too, the South was an extremely big portion of the taxes going into the federal government at the time, so do you think the politicians really, truly wanted an end to slavery in the North? They didn't, they were using it for political gain since there was an anti-slavery movement in the North.
    QFT but ,dear god, trying to get people to understand that without them writing you off as a racist pig is extremely hard. Believe me, I don't start the discussion with

    "The south should have won!"

    I try more for something along the lines of

    "Well, you know, state rights were pretty effectively put to bed by the civil war. It was about expansion of Federal power and money..."

    It's just hard to breach and get anything other than a wide eyed stare of disbelief.

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by cthulhufan View Post
    QFT but ,dear god, trying to get people to understand that without them writing you off as a racist pig is extremely hard. Believe me, I don't start the discussion with

    "The south should have won!"

    I try more for something along the lines of

    "Well, you know, state rights were pretty effectively put to bed by the civil war. It was about expansion of Federal power and money..."

    It's just hard to breach and get anything other than a wide eyed stare of disbelief.
    Yeah so true. It also sounds like you're a Southern redneck if you say the South should have won, or that you wish the South had its own country today too. I'm not sure if I wish the South would have won or not because of slavery, I probably do slightly lean that way, but probably because I think slavery would have come to an end if the South had won too. But it probably would have taken a good bit longer which I hate to admit. Its really saddening and embarrassing to me that my ancestors enslaved people.
    I GOT MY BUSINESS MANAGEMENT SCIENCE DEGREE IN MY HANDS AND RAN!!!!!!! THEY'RE NEVER GETTING IT BACK!!!!!!!!!


    "It is dissent from government policies that defines the true patriot and champion of liberty."

    - Ron Paul



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  18. #105
    Secession won't work without a strong collective identity. Even though 10% of Americans were for the revolution, the other 90% still thought of themselves as American moreso than British, and this is why they came around.

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophage View Post
    Secession won't work without a strong collective identity. Even though 10% of Americans were for the revolution, the other 90% still thought of themselves as American moreso than British, and this is why they came around.
    Ok change Americans to Southerners, and we have "Even though 10% of Southerners were for the revolution, the other 90% still thought of themselves as Southerners more than American, and this is why they came around."

    That statement is true of the South today in my opinion. I would think about 5% to maybe even 15% would be for the South leaving the United States now. I mean I'm absolutely not hardcore southern or redneck, I feel like it saying this stuff but I have never said it until now lol, but I know there are plenty of hardcore southerners out there that have wanted to have their own country their entire lives.
    I GOT MY BUSINESS MANAGEMENT SCIENCE DEGREE IN MY HANDS AND RAN!!!!!!! THEY'RE NEVER GETTING IT BACK!!!!!!!!!


    "It is dissent from government policies that defines the true patriot and champion of liberty."

    - Ron Paul

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by justinc.1089 View Post
    Slavery was one of a few major reasons the South left. The idea of the civil war being fought over only slavery is a myth that comes from the North. Sorry if you're from the North but its true, it wasn't only over slavery.

    Another thing too, the South was an extremely big portion of the taxes going into the federal government at the time, so do you think the politicians really, truly wanted an end to slavery in the North? They didn't, they were using it for political gain since there was an anti-slavery movement in the North.
    Quote me when I said "only." You didn't read carefully.
    "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

    Damn proud Classical Liberal/Minarchist!

  21. #108
    I'll move to New Hampshire if someone wants to set me up a job...

  22. #109
    ..

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


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