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Thread: Ron Paul Ideas: Utopia vs Reality.

  1. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulR3VOLUTION View Post
    Why don't people use food and water as money?

    Well, I don't see people carrying around a coke and a slice of pizza, as a means of exchange, working out too well...
    Good work this week Mr. Johnson, here's 14 dominoes pizzas, a case of mr pibb, 27 boxes of cheerios, and a bag of those weird coffee beans they have animals eat or something. Have a good weekend!
    “If you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.” -CS Lewis

    The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft.

    If our society were a forum, congress would be the illiterate troll that somehow got a hold of the only ban hammer.



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  3. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by tremendoustie View Post
    Don't worry, I only thought that you were wrong after I read your posts. Then, after reading more of your posts, I realized that you also weren't open minded, or well researched, and that you were supremely cocky.
    LMFAO!

    I think it's time guys...

    -> Click; then you know what to do.

    "Titanic: Never Let Go"

    In this scene; "jack" will represent "teen08" ... Enjoy.

    Edit: Can I just add... wtf is with "08" people being total retards? Sally08 being a prime example... "RonPaulsupporter777777" "teenforpaul08" all just seem so retarded.. like you're on a ron paul supporters forum, why you feel the need to proclaim you're a supporter? Besides the obvious conclusion... that you want to appear as one.. any other options we got here? lol
    “I will be as harsh as truth, and uncompromising as justice... I am in earnest, I will not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retreat a single inch, and I will be heard.” ~ William Lloyd Garrison

    Quote Originally Posted by TGGRV View Post
    Conza, why do you even bother? lol.
    Worthy Threads:

  4. #213
    Perhaps there is a monumental misunderstanding of Ayn Rand coming through here. She freaked out whenever anyone mentioned Utopia or altruism. People here tend to throw out all sorts of babies with all sorts of bathwater. You gotta look at where she came from..Stalin's Russia.
    A friend once said "if you don't dream you become a monster." I reckon we need our visionaries, our mystics, our poetsour utopians,our altruists...DH Lawrence, Shelley, Keats, Blake, Yeats...they weren't socialist ogres.The Buddha taught constant altruism and utopianism and had never read Das Kapital. And yet these great spiritual qualities are denigrated and reduced to the level of some mediocre Russian public servant with a twitch in his cheek.

    Collectivist thinking...shudder...venus project looks great T4P. As does Integral Life..ken Wilber's site...Work that Reconnect...Joanna Macey's site..lots of consciousness raising out there..only hope we all wake up quickly enough.

    Try and be civil...surely to goodness you can disagree without becoming all martial...sigh...well i guess this IS America..
    The world does not consist of a throng of geniuses. WilliamBanzai7

  5. #214
    Perhaps there is a monumental misunderstanding of Ayn Rand coming through here. She freaked out whenever anyone mentioned Utopia or altruism. People here tend to throw out all sorts of babies with all sorts of bathwater. You gotta look at where she came from..Stalin's Russia.
    A friend once said "if you don't dream you become a monster." I reckon we need our visionaries, our mystics, our poetsour utopians,our altruists...DH Lawrence, Shelley, Keats, Blake, Yeats...they weren't socialist ogres.The Buddha taught constant altruism and utopianism and had never read Das Kapital. And yet these great spiritual qualities are denigrated and reduced to the level of some mediocre Russian public servant with a twitch in his cheek.

    Collectivist thinking...shudder...venus project looks great T4P. As does Integral Life..ken Wilber's site...Work that Reconnect...Joanna Macey's site..lots of consciousness raising out there..only hope we all wake up quickly enough.

    Try and be civil people...surely to goodness you can disagree without becoming all martial...sigh...well i guess this IS America..
    The world does not consist of a throng of geniuses. WilliamBanzai7

  6. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by raiha View Post
    The Buddha taught constant altruism and utopianism and had never read Das Kapital.
    That is not even close to true. You've taken the perceived perception and wrapped it around what you want it to mean.

  7. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by raiha View Post
    Perhaps there is a monumental misunderstanding of Ayn Rand coming through here. She freaked out whenever anyone mentioned Utopia or altruism. People here tend to throw out all sorts of babies with all sorts of bathwater. You gotta look at where she came from..Stalin's Russia.
    A friend once said "if you don't dream you become a monster." I reckon we need our visionaries, our mystics, our poetsour utopians,our altruists...DH Lawrence, Shelley, Keats, Blake, Yeats...they weren't socialist ogres.The Buddha taught constant altruism and utopianism and had never read Das Kapital. And yet these great spiritual qualities are denigrated and reduced to the level of some mediocre Russian public servant with a twitch in his cheek.

    Collectivist thinking...shudder...venus project looks great T4P. As does Integral Life..ken Wilber's site...Work that Reconnect...Joanna Macey's site..lots of consciousness raising out there..only hope we all wake up quickly enough.

    Try and be civil people...surely to goodness you can disagree without becoming all martial...sigh...well i guess this IS America..
    You should see what it's like here. I went out to pay for my fix with thirty cans of Dr. Pepper, but I drank my currency on the way to my dealer and he came at me with his Jean-Claude Van Damme routine. It's so martial over here we have moms and kids busting out their Kung Fu in the ice cream parlor! It's so martial that the law's joining in, too!
    ...sorry, I'm in a silly mood now. It's late.

    Seriously though, while I'm not Ayn Rand and I have nothing against altruism (as long as it isn't others forcing me to comply with their own "altruistic" ideas), the word "utopia" has some well-deserved negative connotations of being unrealistic and relying on premises which are patently untrue. The biggest problem I have with keeping my opinions to myself about such pipe dreams is that they're doomed to failure, but it won't stop people from trying their damnedest and dragging as many people in with them as possible - and historically, whenever utopian ideas based on horribly false premises and assumptions about economics or human nature have been tried, they have ended up with a whole lot of people very, very dead. I really am an idealist at heart, but I will not hesitate to point out serious logical flaws with seemingly idealistic ideas. In other words, I dislike the notion that realism and idealism are mutually exclusive. Instead, I believe that the most worthwhile ideals amount to the very best human conditions which can be practically achieved within the confines of reality and the laws of the universe and economics.



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  9. #217
    I find it very amusing that the system being proposed can only be brought about by a moneyed system. Why can't some people just move somewhere and start this society? Oh, right, you need all of the robots and such beforehand to even make an attempt to start it. Does everyone live as communists/socialists/whatever until these robots are available? It seems the only system with any hope of bringing something like this into fruition is the very system they demean.

  10. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulR3VOLUTION View Post
    I find it very amusing that the system being proposed can only be brought about by a moneyed system. Why can't some people just move somewhere and start this society? Oh, right, you need all of the robots and such beforehand to even make an attempt to start it. Does everyone live as communists/socialists/whatever until these robots are available? It seems the only system with any hope of bringing something like this into fruition is the very system they demean.
    Exactly! I told him in either this thread or another that as soon as it's viable, companies really will use as much automation as they can to gain a competitive edge and become more efficient...and that will reduce costs for consumers and increase the wealth circulating around in the economy. As this continues, costs will continue to go down and wealth will be increasingly abundant until hopefully, someday, costs will be close to zero and people will hardly have to work a day in their lives, if at all. Still, cost can never be arbitrarily "eliminated," only mitigated more and more until it's eventually immaterial for most purposes. Certain aspects of the Venus Project idea, like widespread automation, will eventually be realistically achievable (to a gradually increasing degree), but other aspects, like the "elimination of money," are just horribly misguided (at best). Even after everything we buy and sell today is given to us on a silver platter by our robotic underlings (hopefully not overlords ), we'll still find use for trade, and so it follows that there will be use for money. In any case, free market competition provides a profit motive for such technological innovation, so it really is the fastest way it can come about anyway...and considering the collectivist alternatives, the free market is the only way it even can come about without us first becoming stuck in something like a North Korean nightmare.

  11. #219
    Costs will never be zero. There will always be competition, because there will always be scarcity. Prices are the natural market condition of rationing.

    People forget that in order to have automation, the capital goods have to be designed and manufactured. To have products to sell, someone will have to design them.

    Anyone producing something with their scarce (finite) labor will expect compensation for such.
    Hi!

  12. #220
    That is not even close to true. You've taken the perceived perception and wrapped it around what you want it to mean.
    True. I wasn't very thorough in my use of the word Utopia...coined by Thomas More so of course the Buddha didn't know about it. However i was speaking metaphorically in the sense of perfected states of being. So excuse me for sloppy use of language. However altruism... definitely.

    Mini me....yknow, I reckon we can either wake up and start being less selfish and more other regarding...not in the 'political sense' but in an "aligned with Reality" that we are all interconnected sense.
    Maybe we will awaken and be nicer to one another a bit more. Who knowz? Maybe the meltdown is a big opportunity?

    Has anyone read "Man's search for Meaning" Victor Frankl...subtext How Auschwitz brings out the monster within and brings out the saint within. We will never know who we really are until we are in a Crucial Situation! We hope we will behave honourably but i reckon we could also become dobbers, lurkers and peepers!
    The world does not consist of a throng of geniuses. WilliamBanzai7

  13. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by raiha View Post
    True. I wasn't very thorough in my use of the word Utopia...coined by Thomas More so of course the Buddha didn't know about it. However i was speaking metaphorically in the sense of perfected states of being. So excuse me for sloppy use of language. However altruism... definitely.

    Mini me....yknow, I reckon we can either wake up and start being less selfish and more other regarding...not in the 'political sense' but in an "aligned with Reality" that we are all interconnected sense.
    Maybe we will awaken and be nicer to one another a bit more. Who knowz? Maybe the meltdown is a big opportunity?
    Interestingly enough, while I'm a strong individualist in just about every sense, my intuition has always told me that there's something to the Buddhist idea of universal consciousness. Despite my uncertainty about a sentient creator and my outright rejection of all scriptures and organized religion, I've still always felt that there's a greater meaning to life and an interconnectedness between people, times, and events, as if everything is meant to be and happens for a reason. I've experienced deja vu and and Jungian synchronicity a staggering number of times, and while I know the first could be my brain acting up and the second could be confirmation bias, I still can't bring myself to ignore those feelings. The universe is a mysterious place.

    Quote Originally Posted by raiha View Post
    Has anyone read "Man's search for Meaning" Victor Frankl...subtext How Auschwitz brings out the monster within and brings out the saint within. We will never know who we really are until we are in a Crucial Situation! We hope we will behave honourably but i reckon we could also become dobbers, lurkers and peepers!
    Yeah, I read that about six years ago actually. I agree that desperate situations bring out our true nature and put our morality to the test...but I do not believe that we can never know who we are beforehand. I believe that by steeling ourselves and mentally preparing in advance for these things, we can make the choice ahead of time and come to terms with the consequences, and that can give us the courage to follow through and do the right thing if and when the time actually comes. After all, that's what it really is...it's a choice. We can make it ahead of time, but I suppose it's true that actually following through at the crucial moment is the only thing that will cure all doubts. Moving from Frankl to Rowling, I've always loved one of Albus Dumbledore's lines from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."

  14. #222

    Talking

    Heh. Dumbledore was a wise man!

    I'm a strong individualist in just about every sense
    Good for you!
    BTW there is no Creator God in Buddhism. He wasn't a prophet or a son of God because you can't be the son of something you do not believe in.

    I tend to see monotheism as problematic especially given you can't get past the Word of God. Can't go into much debate after that which i find irritating.
    He was an ordinary human being who through his own actions moved from the conditioned to the Unconditioned (a state coined to describe something ineffable by wannabe Buddhas!)

    Whoops look im on a soapbox...sorry bout that. Interconnectedness had bad press til Bertolanffi came up with Systems Theory which shows how without cooperation and awareness of the whole, you risk atrophying and dying. Much as I love USA, i noticed when i was there the extent to which your country is Americocentric...I thought if i was Dictator of USA Id get all citizens to TRAVEL to other countries. some American citizens have really screwy ideas about other types of people.

    Sad! if you talk about altruism and cooperatives you are immediately tarred with a great crimson brush and called a socialist...whereas really, for some people it is more a spiritual perspective.
    but I do not believe that we can never know who we are beforehand.
    Ever read "Lord Jim?" by Joseph Conrad. The Mate who had fantasies for years about his ship going down and he cast himself as chief hero and saved everyone and basked in glory. Then one stormy day it actually happened and he accidentally saved himself and everyone else drowned and he had to live with himself and revamp his view of himself.
    You evidently have more faith in human nature than I do. I think i might stick to dogs and horses. Much more straightforward!
    The world does not consist of a throng of geniuses. WilliamBanzai7

  15. #223
    Bury this thread!

    We have talked about too much in this thread. If we let the sheeps see this thread, they will rise against the free-market establishment that is very entrenched on this forum. Censor it NOW!
    Last edited by Teenforpaul08; 10-09-2008 at 02:43 AM.

  16. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by raiha View Post
    Heh. Dumbledore was a wise man!


    Good for you!
    BTW there is no Creator God in Buddhism. He wasn't a prophet or a son of God because you can't be the son of something you do not believe in.
    I just reread what I said and I can see why you misunderstood what I meant...but yes, I know this. When I said I was uncertain about the existence of a creator, I wasn't meaning to contrast that with Buddhism at all. Rather, I was just indirectly addressing the general assumption among monotheists that anyone who doesn't necessarily believe in God is automatically some kind of nihilist who believes there's no greater meaning to life whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by raiha View Post
    I tend to see monotheism as problematic especially given you can't get past the Word of God. Can't go into much debate after that which i find irritating.
    He was an ordinary human being who through his own actions moved from the conditioned to the Unconditioned (a state coined to describe something ineffable by wannabe Buddhas!)

    Whoops look im on a soapbox...sorry bout that. Interconnectedness had bad press til Bertolanffi came up with Systems Theory which shows how without cooperation and awareness of the whole, you risk atrophying and dying. Much as I love USA, i noticed when i was there the extent to which your country is Americocentric...I thought if i was Dictator of USA Id get all citizens to TRAVEL to other countries. some American citizens have really screwy ideas about other types of people.
    You're right about this. In America, we hardly ever even consider the existence of other countries, languages, etc. I think some of this comes naturally from relative geographical isolation and distance from most other countries, but a lot also comes from the government's arrogant foreign policy and the almost religious "America is number one in everything!" propaganda we've been fed since birth (we meaning everyone born since the 50's or so). Until I started actually interacting with Europeans in online games about ten years ago, I was always very insulated from everyone in the outside world. Everything outside our borders is just this vague amorphous "other," and it can be really hard for us to wrap our heads around the idea that "even in today's day and age," real human beings actually live in other countries, speak other languages, have other cultures, etc. Most of us are just not really exposed to any of that. I believe that as America is humbled, this will eventually change...but for now, you're right that a lot of us have "really screwy ideas about other types of people."

    Quote Originally Posted by raiha View Post
    Sad! if you talk about altruism and cooperatives you are immediately tarred with a great crimson brush and called a socialist...whereas really, for some people it is more a spiritual perspective.
    I think that's more common on this forum than anywhere else, and I consider it a defense mechanism a lot of us have developed in light of the fact that most people who talk about these things are usually overtly or covertly advocating collectivism, socialism, charity at gunpoint, etc. Whenever I hear people talking about altruism and cooperatives and such, my subconscious tends to put my senses on alert and I start thinking, "Wait...where are you going with this?"

    However, defense mechanisms against actual socialists aside, I am not Ayn Rand, and I wholly endorse voluntary altruism, charity, and cooperation. I know I was personally born with many advantages others don't have, and those are simply accidents of birth. I detest the idea of coercion, but ultimately, I have every intention of voluntarily helping the less fortunate, once I get my own bearings in life. (That's not to say I don't already try to help out a bit...it's just that right now, the bulk of my efforts are focused on planning for my own future.)

    Quote Originally Posted by raiha View Post
    Ever read "Lord Jim?" by Joseph Conrad. The Mate who had fantasies for years about his ship going down and he cast himself as chief hero and saved everyone and basked in glory. Then one stormy day it actually happened and he accidentally saved himself and everyone else drowned and he had to live with himself and revamp his view of himself.
    You evidently have more faith in human nature than I do. I think i might stick to dogs and horses. Much more straightforward!
    No, I've never read that! Still, I have this notion that if I ever allowed myself to consider myself a coward, that doubt would become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've noticed that as I grew up, I developed along a path laid by the expectations others had for me. My loved ones' high expectations and hopes instilled high personal standards in me...so my hope is that by setting the bar high and forcing myself to be who I want to be, I will in fact become that person. This may just be my own thing or it may be more universal...but I really believe it helps.



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  18. #225
    Maybe I posted on here before..free market looks GREAT...to intellectuals on paper. eh..we're dealing with the NEO cons now who put utopian foreign policy on paper , also intellectuals. Didn't work. so...I believe there COULD be free markets in a utopian world where everyone had a moral compass..but reality is...we don't. I like the idea of protectionism. Tarriffs. I think you can be capitalistic but still have some regulations over people who are full of GREED. gotta do it. tones

  19. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by powerofreason View Post
    My main point is that sometimes a great idea is worth fighting for, but when enacted it could potentially lead to another set of disasters. How are we so sure that deregulated markets in the American Economy will not lead to corruption and further consolidation of wealth among the already rich elitists of this world?
    A free market gives equal opportunity for all to climb up the ladder.

  20. #227
    Mediahasyou..show me...where has this occurred. I ain't seein it. tones

  21. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by tonesforjonesbones View Post
    Mediahasyou..show me...where has this occurred. I ain't seein it. tones
    That goes without saying, since you haven't seen a free market in the first place. Still, Hong Kong is quite a bit better on the economic side of things than the US is though, and I think that provides a pretty decent example.

  22. #229
    Rather, I was just indirectly addressing the general assumption among monotheists that anyone who doesn't necessarily believe in God is automatically some kind of nihilist who believes there's no greater meaning to life whatsoever.
    Also, that without Christian values, no ethics exist. Humph! Odd, I have ethical difficulties with a God who covers people with oozing boils, who withers dear little unsuspecting, fig trees and who condemns unbaptized babies to hell. Yikes!

    QUOTE]You're right about this. In America, we hardly ever even consider the existence of other countries, languages, etc. I think some of this comes naturally from relative geographical isolation and distance from most other countries, but a lot also comes from the government's arrogant foreign policy and the almost religious "America is number one in everything!" propaganda we've been fed since birth (we meaning everyone born since the 50's or so). Until I started actually interacting with Europeans in online games about ten years ago, I was always very insulated from everyone in the outside world. Everything outside our borders is just this vague amorphous "other," and it can be really hard for us to wrap our heads around the idea that "even in today's day and age," real human beings actually live in other countries, speak other languages, have other cultures, etc. Most of us are just not really exposed to any of that. I believe that as America is humbled, this will eventually change...but for now, you're right that a lot of us have "really screwy ideas about other types of people."[/QUOTE]

    Came from the Puritans thinking they were the Chosen people coming to the Promised Land. Old illusions die hard. I guess it enabled the genocide of native Americans with minimum qualms and the theft of Mexico. And all sorts of other imperialist romps up until today.
    I guess the old imperialist chickens are coming home to roost. I have a feeling they are about to be plucked and roasted. I'm really sorry for the suffering about to hit your continent. And America truly is a wonderful nation. Just not the best in the world is all. (We are!
    I think that's more common on this forum than anywhere else
    Nah. I've been on many a WBTS forum where i was too scared to raise my altruisitc, Buddhist head above the ramparts! I can appreciate the suspicion though really. Problem is you are an impetuous lot and make your minds up rapidly about people. The good thing about this is you are a passionate people. The not so good is it can come across as opinionated at times.

    I am not Ayn Rand, and I wholly endorse voluntary altruism, charity, and cooperation.
    Spoken like a true Ron Paul devotee!
    The world does not consist of a throng of geniuses. WilliamBanzai7

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